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That Blasted Samophlange

Bunker article!

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On 8/18/2019 at 5:05 AM, TauntaunScout said:

Warhammer 40k was about the size of Legions armies when I started and we didn’t say “it’ a skirmish not armies”.  GW has moved the goal line for players every edition as a sales trick. 


It was a skirmish game then and short of Apocalypse it's a skirmish game now. There's no question that standard army size has gone up with every edition though.

 

On 8/18/2019 at 7:46 AM, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I think the issue is that Many people want Legion to be this massive army war game..  but it really isn't that.   I think in time FFG WILL do that game, with a smaller scale.   The use of hard plastics may well help with they scale, and we will get vehicles troopers.  But as it is, Legion is. Trying to emulate the battles we see in the media, which are not large.  

There's something about the word "Legion" that really implied that... they definitely missed the mark with that (and the quite significant 15mm sci-fi cross sales) so we'll be waiting for years to do "Battle of Hoth" without proxies or big con games. To be fair "Armada" also has implications that aren't realized in games that are barely a carrier group per side.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tealadin said:

These are MY opinions...And in my 10 veteran opinion, 

Mostly the same as my 25 years opinion too. 

And GW works to ensure that they aren’t accommodating to longtime players according to leaked memos and ex-staff interviews. So they aren’t moving headcount goalposts so that older players can use their growing collections. They actually want you to see yourself out after about 10 years because new people aren’t aware when they pull certain stuff. And because apparently new people spend more but I guess I buck that trend.

If they care about me fielding my growing collection, it’s sure news to my Bretonnians, the ever changing base sizes across all factions now, the units in my collection (IG stormtroopers, Genestealer Cult) that disappeared for a decade or so then came back, the nixing of my skink archers, etc etc etc. 

Anyway. As far as the size of collection you *need* to play fun home games and meet tournament legality, I think Legion is perfect for how many 25mm+ minis are convenient to paint up, store, transport, etc.

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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26 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Mostly the same as my 25 years opinion too. 

And GW works to ensure that they aren’t accommodating to longtime players according to leaked memos and ex-staff interviews. So they aren’t moving headcount goalposts so that older players can use their growing collections. They actually want you to see yourself out after about 10 years because new people aren’t aware when they pull certain stuff. And because apparently new people spend more but I guess I buck that trend.

If they care about me fielding my growing collection, it’s sure news to my Bretonnians, the ever changing base sizes across all factions now, the units in my collection (IG stormtroopers, Genestealer Cult) that disappeared for a decade or so then came back, the nixing of my skink archers, etc etc etc. 

Anyway. As far as the size of collection you *need* to play fun home games and meet tournament legality, I think Legion is perfect for how many 25mm+ minis are convenient to paint up, store, transport, etc.

 

I can fit two armies into a cardboard box smaller than a shoebox, so yeah, the 800 point army is more than acceptable for play size. 

Besides which, games are already upwards of 2.5 hrs, anything more would be knocking on 3 hrs. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Tealadin said:

I'm just comparing what is considered a large fight within the games limitations FF recommends 800pts as a large army with 1600 being a massive army. This is made in comparison to to GW recommending a 2000pt army for a large battle and 4000+ for an Apoc. 

Games can't compare! why do you insist? 

In batman miniature games a Joker cost 100 points, and in DC game harley quinn is level 6... what does this mean? Can I bring 15 harleys in one game system considering the relative points? doesn't make any sense... 

The point system is not a measurement of how many minis will you get in different games system, but you still can try to say that as they say 4000 points it is intended for more or less minis. I simply wanted to explain that most games allows for an easy escalation just adding more units for a point price, and the force organization system without cards allows for easy escalation making the units bigger, not using more units. 

But in legion, FIVE is the top model count for normal armies, and as I meant, if you want to achieve the feeling of playing a grand army in legion, you can include a maximum of TEN corps and that allows you only FIFTY models... that's all... it is not even close to the model count from other game systems and so that doesn't feel like a "legion" of soldiers, especially when alongside that 50 soldiers you can use EIGHT heroes.

It is a system you like?

Perfect, but it is not what you can understand reading the description and buying the core box... it seemed like the other wargames out there, and it isn't because they can charge more money for mini giving you seven than giving you ten. 

 

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Tealadin said:

, I never said FF is the cheapest. I know those other companies, but they are cheaper because their quality is often lower

You can't be serious. I am not talking about your prefered aesthetics, but the raw quality and model count for the price. A bolt action box gives you THIRTY multipose hard plastic soldiers for 20$. It is not even closer to seven soft plastic monopose minis... 

Or conquest from para bellum, gives you EIGHTY multipose minis for 75$ in their starter set. It is impossible to try to compare that hard plastic ARMY filled woth extras with that soft plastic building or that soft plastic 25 mini starter set.

And regarding prices NOW I UNDERSTAND a lot of things regarding complaints with prices, in next post... 

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Tealadin said:

Also...did you mean to show me an $80-$100 resin model...because thats more expensive that FF's kit, also without the rules and scenario. That's also only 7.5" x 6.3"...So considerably smaller.

XDDD sorry for the way of posting, but I am on a mobile an it is difficult to multiquote XDD

I said you that now I understand the perspective. The building I showed you is just 64€. From your perspective, it means 80$. But you don't notice that FFG prices consider dollars to euros in a 1 to 1 ratio. This is madness, of course. Just as an example, the building I showed you (in resin, don't forget it) would cost you 69$ with FFG system. And it is a multistory building with playing interiors and can't compare the intrincate level of detail.

But the most important thing, understand that the 75$ in euros should mean 67€... not 75€.

Using that system, if they'd charge you the same ratio 1 to 1 but in reverse, your precious bunker would cost you... 83$!!!! would you feel so inclined? and we are not taking into account the BIG differences in respective incomes between US and europe....

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)

Welp. Back in the day, SW used around 33 models per side. At the same time, W40k used about the same for 1,000 point games, depending on faction. WFB used about twice the figures of 40k which felt right but was a barrier to entry for some people.  The collections felt manageable and the games were interesting. I am very glad that’s the same size as Legion went with. The sheer size of post-2001 GW games has been a real turn off for me. 

Edit: just for fun I double checked an old published 1500 point sample army list for my own army if the day, Imperial Guard. It was 43 infantry, 5 horsemen, 3 tanks. That was considered a swarm army. From my memory, Space Marines woulda had more like 27 infantry and a vehicle at 1500 points. 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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Posted (edited)

well, my IG 40k army was 1000 points and was about 180 men. And it was the same army, with aditions, from 3rd to 6th edition. I would never call 40 minis a swarm, if it was called like that "back in the day" does it mean that legion is a game from that years? I'd say no. Today 40 minis in bolt action is simply a... meh... three squads and a couple of support weapons and an artillery piece... not exactly a BIG army. I'd say it has some relation with warlord selling boxes of 30 soldiers very cheap.

And take into consideration the suposed time you need to play with 50 minis. You are saying you want it fast? then of course it is way funnier and faster to play with 3 units rather than 7. And in other wargames you get to 50 models with just five units, not TEN activations that, for sure, will make a boring game. 

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)

Well 3rd is where the points creep started. We all woke up one day and found out our collections were worth half of what they had been. 

43 infantry, 5 horse, 3 tanks, was a 1500 point IG published sample army list in 2nd. NOT “40 minis”.  And we didn’t sit around bemoaning the games for being small. It was made up for with detail, for one thing. Individual basing mattered a lot more.

Orks on the other hand frequently used like 100 infantry for 1000 point games! When elite armies creep up as big as Space Marines have gotten, the swarm armies become untenable.

I am not surprised that you started in 3rd. However there was no legal way that I can find in the three different 3rd ed army lists for 180 men to fit into a 1000 point list. Not sure what you were doing. 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Well 3rd is where the points creep started. We all woke up one day and found out our collections were worth half of what they had been. 

43 infantry, 5 horse, 3 tanks, was a 1500 point IG published sample army list in 2nd. NOT “40 minis”.  And we didn’t sit around bemoaning the games for being small. It was made up for with detail, for one thing. Individual basing mattered a lot more.

Orks on the other hand frequently used like 100 infantry for 1000 point games! When elite armies creep up as big as Space Marines have gotten, the swarm armies become untenable.

I am not surprised that you started in 3rd. However there was no legal way that I can find in the three different 3rd ed army lists for 180 men to fit into a 1000 point list. Not sure what you were doing. 

If I recall correctly, in the 3rd edition of the codex, that was released between 3rd and 4th edition of 40k, a single troop slot could consist of a 5 men command squad and up to FIVE 10 men squads. That was 55 soldiers for just ONE slot, there were six slots available. Those were MUCH more than 180 just in troop options, but I was counting also the dozen of soldiers I painted with each of the support weapons from heavy slots, like heavy bolters and laser cannons, the elite units (at least 20 veterans more) the CHEAP conscripts, the penal units or the command slot that also consisted in squads of 5 men and a couple of 10 men squads. I asure you I had MORE than 180 guards painted and I played them weekly against my own Tau Army. And it was gorgeous. I have to concede that perhaps when I reached that number of minis I was playing about 1500 (I also had a Basilisk a group of chimera transports and a valkyrie) but anyway the difference in scale is what upsets me... having to play a couple of hours and realizing I have only moved 15 men and two heroes...

EDIT: by the way, I played my IG army with cousins, my uncle and my father, and I always asked them to find TWO equal guards in the army, even saying that if they found two with the same pose they could take them home. 

They never managed to find two with the same pose XDD

Edited by Tubb

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The market will decide if the bunker is too expensive.

FFG are pitching a product at folks with disposable income. It is left to you to decide if they are offering what you consider to be value for money.

Personally I think they jumped the shark with the cost of both the bunker and downed AT-ST.

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On 8/20/2019 at 3:50 AM, Tubb said:

Games can't compare! why do you insist? 

Why not? Games can be compared in the amount of time to play, and the amount of units (not speaking models) in play. Both games at the listed point values will take 2+ hours. And while having 163 models on the field (assuming I was going light on gants/gaunts) looked impressiveon the field (and my pocket book :D), moving was a MASSIVE time sink and over the years my friends and I kinda got tired of it. So smaller squads aren't a problem for us. With the same number of units on the field, spread out, it also feels just as big; while less clostrophobic. I've also played about a dozen Legion matches and have yet to have an overwhelming loss (on either side)...which I can't say for half of the WH matches I've played...most of the time you can tell who is going to win after the first turn; at least in my observation. And any time that happened whoever was being crushed would just kinda lose interest in play. That's not just my friends or me either, I've also noticed it with everyone I've played, or watched play, at my local store.

One the price point too, Historical games don't have licence fees to pay. FF does; and I guarantee Disney isn't letting it go for cheap. I love Star Wars and know I'm paying more for the right to own these units (mind you my local store doesn't carry Legion, so I buy from Mini Market) but I'm willing to accept that at its current price. I still don't see a box of 7 models, with their stats/rules/tokens at $25 expensive...After all, I paided $75 for the rulebook, $45 for the codex (every 3 years), $15 for the templates, and THEN had to get the units with GW. I Just figure even if the units are a bit higher than the cheapest models on the market, I'm still not having to buy all the extra stuff. 

I've put together a budget for the Clone Wars (had to to appease my wife) and in order to get an 800pt army for both factions will only be $160. Then with the extra units from the 1st wave: 1 Saber, 1 AAT, 2 B2's, Rex and Dooku. will run about another $160. $322 aprox. for two armies with a degree of flexibility. I spent $350 for a third of my 2000pt Nid army...that wasn't even for more models either; about 30. I'm not sure what your experiences are, so I'm not judging, just from mine, I don't see any major price issue right now. 

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On 8/20/2019 at 4:14 AM, Tubb said:

But the most important thing, understand that the 75$ in euros should mean 67€... not 75€.

I've looked at a lot of terrain in the past and have considered this company. If you buy only 3 and use them every time, then they may be worth it for someone. For me that would cost nearly $250, and for that, I could build an entire city in Lazer MDF...yeah, not as pretty, but can be made to look good. For me I'll spend more on the models and cheap out on terrain. Each their own (shrug).

 

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