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That Blasted Samophlange

Bunker article!

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2 hours ago, Tirion said:

this is why i laugh when people max out lists when games drop. similar to what people will do with the clones core set. you get all this stuff early then you end up with boxes of plastic collecting dust.

Yeah, I only had the one core with the first iteration of Legion. That said, I am in on the double Clone core that I’m splitting with a guy. I’m doing that because I don’t see myself buying the phase 2 clones at $35 a box. I may have too many units, but at least I’ll always have the same corps. The extra speeder is just free gravy based on cost at that point.

I am really looking for SF for republic after that (besides the announced tank and Rex).  

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3 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Yeah, I only had the one core with the first iteration of Legion. That said, I am in on the double Clone core that I’m splitting with a guy. I’m doing that because I don’t see myself buying the phase 2 clones at $35 a box. I may have too many units, but at least I’ll always have the same corps. The extra speeder is just free gravy based on cost at that point.

I am really looking for SF for republic after that (besides the announced tank and Rex).  

Side note - P2s and B2s went back down to 24.95, they corrected the suspected Gencon error. 

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21 minutes ago, TalkPolite said:

Side note - P2s and B2s went back down to 24.95, they corrected the suspected Gencon error. 

Well that’s worth knowing I suppose. I don’t really regret the decision, but I’m not sure it would have gone the same way with that knowledge. I figured it couldn’t be wrong because the GenCon slides matched the website at 35, and it was the first run with new plastic for clones.

I may pick up a single one. Or I will just wait for the special forces slot releases.

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20 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I figured it couldn’t be wrong because the GenCon slides matched the website at 35, and it was the first run with new plastic for clones.

Do we know that the Phase II clones will be on sprues? I didn't think they were. I'm not good at judging by the level of detail in the renderings, but I thought they were still doing those in soft plastic while the new Separatists are on sprues.

I've been lurking here for a while. I'm waiting to buy in until:

a) They have a way of doing points adjustments so I know that what I buy will be playable in the long term, and

b) They move all models to hard plastic so I don't have to re-buy for the better detail level.

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11 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Do we know that the Phase II clones will be on sprues? I didn't think they were. I'm not good at judging by the level of detail in the renderings, but I thought they were still doing those in soft plastic while the new Separatists are on sprues.

I've been lurking here for a while. I'm waiting to buy in until:

a) They have a way of doing points adjustments so I know that what I buy will be playable in the long term, and

b) They move all models to hard plastic so I don't have to re-buy for the better detail level.

1. They said on stream they’d be in the new plastic, so I would assume sprues are a part of that package deal. 

2. I don’t think you’re going to get that point adjustment until a second edition because points are printed on the card. They may retro patch stuff with fix cards like xwing 1.0, but don’t expect a true pricing change/errata.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

1. They said on stream they’d be in the new plastic, so I would assume sprues are a part of that package deal. 

2. I don’t think you’re going to get that point adjustment until a second edition because points are printed on the card. They may retro patch stuff with fix cards like xwing 1.0, but don’t expect a true pricing change/errata.

1. I just checked that section of the in-flight report again (starts around the 16:10 mark) and he definitely did not say that the P2 troopers would be hard plastic. I know they're planning on moving all things to hard plastic in the future, but I'm afraid it's the pretty distant future.

2. Similarly distant future. I don't think Armada or Legion need to have strict 2.0 reboots because they're nowhere as broken as X-Wing got to be. Still, without being able to rebalance stuff like the T-47, AT-ST, and Commander Vader, I'm just not that interested. I went through the "fix" packs and stuff in X-Wing and I'm not doing it again. The result is always 1-build units and 3-squad metas, that you have to pay to keep up with anyway. The value of an upgrade slot is lost and list-building is nearly nonexistent as there's an optimal solution for each unit. I know that's not the case now, but it's where strictly-printed miniatures games go in time. I expect they will make rebalances possible though; I know Alex Davy's been wanting to do it for all their miniatures games for some time. All it would really take is doubling or halving the points totals and treating the printed values as "starter" or "casual" values. Maybe that's a trap; I don't know. I still think it's feasible. Regardless, I'm waiting until I see some future-proofing plan before I jump in. X-Wing and Armada have me pretty well tied up.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

1. I just checked that section of the in-flight report again (starts around the 16:10 mark) and he definitely did not say that the P2 troopers would be hard plastic. I know they're planning on moving all things to hard plastic in the future, but I'm afraid it's the pretty distant future.

2. Similarly distant future. I don't think Armada or Legion need to have strict 2.0 reboots because they're nowhere as broken as X-Wing got to be. Still, without being able to rebalance stuff like the T-47, AT-ST, and Commander Vader, I'm just not that interested. I went through the "fix" packs and stuff in X-Wing and I'm not doing it again. The result is always 1-build units and 3-squad metas, that you have to pay to keep up with anyway. The value of an upgrade slot is lost and list-building is nearly nonexistent as there's an optimal solution for each unit. I know that's not the case now, but it's where strictly-printed miniatures games go in time. I expect they will make rebalances possible though; I know Alex Davy's been wanting to do it for all their miniatures games for some time. All it would really take is doubling or halving the points totals and treating the printed values as "starter" or "casual" values. Maybe that's a trap; I don't know. I still think it's feasible. Regardless, I'm waiting until I see some future-proofing plan before I jump in. X-Wing and Armada have me pretty well tied up.

the new Vader operative command cards should also help commander Vader, but I guess we'll have to wait and see

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36 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

1. I just checked that section of the in-flight report again (starts around the 16:10 mark) and he definitely did not say that the P2 troopers would be hard plastic. I know they're planning on moving all things to hard plastic in the future, but I'm afraid it's the pretty distant future.

The article does state that Phase 2 will be hard plastic. 

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2 minutes ago, FSD said:

The article does state that Phase 2 will be hard plastic. 

Quote

Within the Phase II Clone Troopers Unit Expansion, you'll find everything you need to deploy an elite corps unit of Phase II Clone Troopers, including seven hard plastic Phase II Clone Trooper miniatures on frames.

Found it. Thanks. Hope they do revisions sooner than later.

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On 8/10/2019 at 2:33 AM, Tubb said:

I really don’t think that I need a “huge” building in a 3x4 table. It is expensive, pricey, or whatever you want to call it, and I am not talking about my personal income, it is VERY expensive compared to other wargame products out there. That bunker should cost, considering other plastic wargames products, about 30$. The detailed interior is NOT an additional 45$ worth. Simply google wargames plastic building and see the prices (for much better quality).

You don't play Warhammer do you? $75 for a Large piece of terrain with special rules, missions and scatter isn't bad; especially if you consider buying it from a place like Mini Market or eBay. GW will charge you $60 for just 3 trees and still make you pay another $50 for the latest codex to see what the trees do...if anything.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/15/2019 at 1:09 AM, Tealadin said:

You don't play Warhammer do you? $75 for a Large piece of terrain with special rules, missions and scatter isn't bad; especially if you consider buying it from a place like Mini Market or eBay. GW will charge you $60 for just 3 trees and still make you pay another $50 for the latest codex to see what the trees do...if anything.

I did play, but I quit because I felt robbed... and so what? they are very expensive, how does this make ffg any better? GW DID change their policies when the sales went down and were clever enough to try new (old) aproaches. Ffg is NOT learning if they do worse regarding prices and not better in other aspects. And you CAN'T compare the quality and options that GW gives you in their kits... no man, we are not talking about three trees, be honest to yourself and compare the quality of the plastics, the raw size and the design choices. 

Edited by Tubb

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On 8/15/2019 at 3:43 PM, Tubb said:

I did play, but I quit because I felt robbed... and so what? they are very expensive, how does this make ffg any better? GW DID change their policies when the sales went down and were clever enough to try new (old) aproaches. Ffg is NOT learning if they do worse regarding prices and not better in other aspects. And you CAN'T compare the quality and options that GW gives you in their kits... no man, we are not talking about three trees, be honest to yourself and compare the quality of the plastics, the raw size and the design choices. 

Yeah, but most of the parts in a GW kit are extras most players don't use; your actual customization is really limited. On top of that if I want to field a full unit with GW I have to purchase 2-4 boxes of infantry, each of which is $30-$50, or else the unit won't be effective. You can get upset about a totally optional $75 piece of terrain, but a complete unit with FF can still be purchased for under $25 in most cases. 

I preordered 2 Clone Core sets for $160, which is almost enough to field an 800pt army with both factions. the equivalent with GW would be a 2000pts match...My 2000pt Tyranid army cost me just shy of $700...Even if one item (that is more expensive because of both its size and less are being made than the units) is more expensive, the game as a whole IS still a third the investment of a GW force.

I too felt cheated by GW, and because of that I'm far more discerning about the games I play. But I've spent some time looking at FF and, while it can get expensive if you buy multiple of everything, It is still in the modern vein most game companies are following; that of making the hobby cheaper and more easily accessed.

My favorite TT mini game is still Firestorm Armada. Its units would often cost $40 for 4 ships only a few inches long. I never felt cheated though because they were well sculpted and the only thing I needed to buy for that unit was that one box. Legion is still one of the cheapest mini combat games I've played, and it has the added value of being in a universe I love. If a squad of soldiers jumps in price to $40-50 then I will likely stop playing. But I can't be mad at them for charging a premium on a large piece that is by design limited. The Executor is another example. Is it cool? Yes. Do I want it? No. But for those who do there is an option.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Tealadin said:

Yeah, but most of the parts in a GW kit are extras most players don't use; your actual customization is really limited. On top of that if I want to field a full unit with GW I have to purchase 2-4 boxes of infantry, each of which is $30-$50, or else the unit won't be effective. You can get upset about a totally optional $75 piece of terrain, but a complete unit with FF can still be purchased for under $25 in most cases. 

I preordered 2 Clone Core sets for $160, which is almost enough to field an 800pt army with both factions. the equivalent with GW would be a 2000pts match...My 2000pt Tyranid army cost me just shy of $700...Even if one item (that is more expensive because of both its size and less are being made than the units) is more expensive, the game as a whole IS still a third the investment of a GW force.

I too felt cheated by GW, and because of that I'm far more discerning about the games I play. But I've spent some time looking at FF and, while it can get expensive if you buy multiple of everything, It is still in the modern vein most game companies are following; that of making the hobby cheaper and more easily accessed.

My favorite TT mini game is still Firestorm Armada. Its units would often cost $40 for 4 ships only a few inches long. I never felt cheated though because they were well sculpted and the only thing I needed to buy for that unit was that one box. Legion is still one of the cheapest mini combat games I've played, and it has the added value of being in a universe I love. If a squad of soldiers jumps in price to $40-50 then I will likely stop playing. But I can't be mad at them for charging a premium on a large piece that is by design limited. The Executor is another example. Is it cool? Yes. Do I want it? No. But for those who do there is an option.

i don't agree, you are bringing the more extreme example, a genestealer army, or saying untrue sentences like you need two boxes of (whatever?) to have one single unit. This is simply not true. At least with GW I can decide between having a 5 mini unit and a 10 mini unit and the boxes come in tens... And regarding full armies, you are comparing the price of a 100 minis army with a (sadly) squirmish game that is only played with 20 minis... can you compare both "armies" (legion is not exactly an armies game...)? And you can't say seriously that customization degree of GW kits is low... come in you got TONS of spare bits that you can use in other models!!! 

And as I said, comparing legion with the suposedly MOST expensive game we know doesn't make them any better. And declaring that FFG is in the cheapest side of wargaming is really a proof of not knowing Warlord Games, Artizan, Perry miniatures, Mantic, Para Bellum, Battlezone, Rubicon... and many many more, all of them way cheaper. 

And regarding terrain, look at the wonders you can do with resin and less than 75$...

https://tabletop-world.com/product/fisherman-house/

with DETAILED interior... not three computers... 

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Warhammer 40k was about the size of Legions armies when I started and we didn’t say “it’ a skirmish not armies”.  GW has moved the goal line for players every edition as a sales trick. 

In my opinion it is a matter of "wanting to use all your units". When 40k grew, simply did it because players armies and collections also grew. If I had a 1000 points marine army, and bought the new shiny, my army could be 1500... why should I get rid of my old units to  make room for new shinies? It happened to me with 40k, with bolt action, with weg battle miniatures, with lord of the rings... My first games with the system where a couple of captains fighting against a dozen of orcs, while my last battles have been simply LEGENDARY, because a squirmish with a band of orcs can be fun but is not the same as attacking the walls of Minas Tirith with two Mûmakils and 200 orcs and goblins carrying ladders, your oponent commanding an army of 70 humans on the walls and then a third player charging the side of the table with 40 rohirrim warriors... No, THAT is not legion.

Because the problem with legion is it feels... capped. As if the design, the cards, the low count on units, the army org chart... everything seems designed towards squirmish and doesn't allow escalation. In lord of the rings you could play a funny short and fast squirmish with the fellowship of the ring against some goblins and a troll, or the battle I mentioned earlier and everything worked just equally fine. In legion having 10 squads to reach the count of 50 soldiers is simply approachless, too many activations, too many cards... inaccesible. 

Edited by Tubb

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42 minutes ago, Tubb said:

In my opinion it is a matter of "wanting to use all your units". When 40k grew, simply did it because players armies and collections also grew. If I had a 1000 points marine army, and bought the new shiny, my army could be 1500... 

But that’s not why the point cost for models drops across the board while the points size of games stays the same. It’s marketing department running the game design. 

And we didn’t call a 2000 point army of 41 marines and a vehicle “a tiny skirmish “. It felt normal, not tiny. If you wanted loads and loads of guys you played Epic 6mm. 

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45 minutes ago, Tubb said:

In my opinion it is a matter of "wanting to use all your units". When 40k grew, simply did it because players armies and collections also grew. If I had a 1000 points marine army, and bought the new shiny, my army could be 1500... why should I get rid of my old units to  make room for new shinies? It happened to me with 40k, with bolt action, with weg battle miniatures, with lord of the rings... My first games with the system where a couple of captains fighting against a dozen of orcs, while my last battles have been simply LEGENDARY, because a squirmish with a band of orcs can be fun but is not the same as attacking the walls of Minas Tirith with two Mûmakils and 200 orcs and goblins carrying ladders, your oponent commanding an army of 70 humans on the walls and then a third player charging the side of the table with 40 rohirrim warriors... No, THAT is not legion.

Because the problem with legion is it feels... capped. As if the design, the cards, the low count on units, the army org chart... everything seems designed towards squirmish and doesn't allow escalation. In lord of the rings you could play a funny short and fast squirmish with the fellowship of the ring against some goblins and a troll, or the battle I mentioned earlier and everything worked just equally fine. In legion having 10 squads to reach the count of 50 soldiers is simply approachless, too many activations, too many cards... inaccesible. 

I think the issue is that Many people want Legion to be this massive army war game..  but it really isn't that.   I think in time FFG WILL do that game, with a smaller scale.   The use of hard plastics may well help with they scale, and we will get vehicles troopers.  But as it is, Legion is. Trying to emulate the battles we see in the media, which are not large.  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I think the issue is that Many people want Legion to be this massive army war game..  but it really isn't that.   I think in time FFG WILL do that game, with a smaller scale.   The use of hard plastics may well help with they scale, and we will get vehicles troopers.  But as it is, Legion is. Trying to emulate the battles we see in the media, which are not large.  

If you read:

"Warfare is an inescapable part of the Star Wars universe, from the blow dealt to the Rebel Alliance in the Battle of Hoth to a few Rebel strike teams taking on a legion of stormtroopers stationed on Endor. Seize your chance to get your boots on the ground and lead your troops to victory with Star Wars™: Legion, a miniatures game of thrilling infantry battles in the Star Wars universe!

Star Wars: Legion invites you to join the unsung battles of the Galactic Civil War as the commander of a unique army filled with troopers, powerful ground or repulsor vehicles, and iconic characters like Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker. While innovative mechanics simulate the fog of war and the chaos of battle... "

I'd say you can get confused with a battle game... 

No one really thinks that you will have as much units used in the" real" battle of Hoth or the real "legion" of stormtroopers that awaited the rebels in Endor, but the SIZE really calls for "massive battles", like a dozen more 28-35mm wargames I have owned, painted and enjoyed. For squirmishes, you had Imperial Assault. That's what we thought, and missed. But we thought it because they talked us THAT way...

And it has nothing to do with scale, the examples I have brought have rulesets that allow you to play ANY size of game, a thing Legion is not able to accomplish.

The best example is that of strategy battles from lord of the rings. Without touching the rules, you could play with 20 minis a VERY cinematic, scenario driven mini game, or the battle of five armies, and that's what legion could have been and they didn't want to give us.

So when it all began, they gave you a box with two corps, a light vehicle and a commander and you though the mix would be like this... and then came the commander invasion... heroes, more heroes and even more heroes without options to build different corps, and when we though "well, there's enough named characters" then came the excuse of operatives... to try to sell even MORE named heroes.

The normal progression when you begin a new wargame (it has happened with ALL of them, you begin with small squirmishes and things progress to big battles when you have more options) was not true in legion, so I got VERY dissapointed with every new product that placed the game in a category I didn't like. The wargame that has not satisfied me completely has to be precisely the star wars one???

the wargame that decides to keep things small has to be that of the greatest battles on screen??

XD

Edited by Tubb

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10 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

You do realize that they have already released a larger battle format right?

And it is, in fact, a lot of fun to play when you have the extra space and time.  That said, I'm glad it isn't the normal game mode for competitive play. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

You do realize that they have already released a larger battle format right?

consisting in simply doubling the points and twice the SAME options, so 4 commanders, 4 operatives... wow, they did a great job... I don't know why do we even call it a format. 

Edited by Tubb

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On 8/18/2019 at 5:01 AM, Tubb said:

i don't agree, you are bringing the more extreme example, a genestealer army, or saying untrue sentences like you need two boxes of (whatever?) to have one single unit. This is simply not true. At least with GW I can decide between having a 5 mini unit and a 10 mini unit and the boxes come in tens... And regarding full armies, you are comparing the price of a 100 minis army with a (sadly) squirmish game that is only played with 20 minis... can you compare both "armies" (legion is not exactly an armies game...)? And you can't say seriously that customization degree of GW kits is low... come in you got TONS of spare bits that you can use in other models!!! 

And as I said, comparing legion with the suposedly MOST expensive game we know doesn't make them any better. And declaring that FFG is in the cheapest side of wargaming is really a proof of not knowing Warlord Games, Artizan, Perry miniatures, Mantic, Para Bellum, Battlezone, Rubicon... and many many more, all of them way cheaper. 

And regarding terrain, look at the wonders you can do with resin and less than 75$...

https://tabletop-world.com/product/fisherman-house/

with DETAILED interior... not three computers... 

I'm just comparing what is considered a large fight within the games limitations FF recommends 800pts as a large army with 1600 being a massive army. This is made in comparison to to GW recommending a 2000pt army for a large battle and 4000+ for an Apoc. 

While technically yes, you can field a squad of Space Marines in as little as 5, you don't get a special weapon and a heavy unless you field them at max (10).  And with a minimum unit they will likely die in a single shooting phase without being useful. I've played Tyranids for 7 years and every time I fielded a squad of gaunts/gants (min 10, max 30) they got utterly destroyed in one turn if I only had 10. In order to reach their target you have to field 20+ (preferably 30). And to field that one group of 30 will cost you $80-90, since you originally had to buy them unit counts of 10($30) and later 20($40). All of my friends have had similar situations with their armies; minimum numbers are there to let you field the unit, but they simply don't have the firepower or staying power of a max unit. Yes, there are some units that are better as singles, the Chaos Obliterators were better as a single unit than in a group of 3, but that was also just a rules exploit in one version of the rulebook. Every long time player I've talked to has operated under the practice of "if your not at full strength then don't bother putting it on the field". I learned that through trial and error, and once I did, I started winning more.

Also, I never said FF is the cheapest. I know those other companies, but they are cheaper because their quality is often lower. Don't get me wrong, I'm not intending this as bad mouthing. I have a few Mantic minis I use for D&D, but they look like minis made in the 90's or early 00's. It's not a look I'm attracted to, so the cheaper pricepoint isn't a selling point for me. I consider FF to be a pretty mid level company. They have a good balance between price, design and quality. My argument has never been "only buy FF", it's that the Bunker should exist  for those who want it, and saying it shouldn't just because you don't want it is kinda crummy. I don't mean any of this as insult/in anger or to argue. These are MY opinions...And in my 10 veteran opinion, GW has some of the best models in the industry, BUT the worst customer service, a horrible business model and their game and (most) of their player base is toxic...That's why I got out, it just wasn't fun anymore...Even with a new CEO and promise to change, they still do all of the awful things they used to...just not as much... :(

Also...did you mean to show me an $80-$100 resin model...because thats more expensive that FF's kit, also without the rules and scenario. That's also only 7.5" x 6.3"...So considerably smaller.

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