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187-Leon

Moralo Theocrafting - Maximum Trigger / Activation

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57 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

I'll believe it when I see it, because you have to have to keep everything within that distance 1-2 bubble. I believe you can make it work, Tokra. I just think it's ridiculously hyperbolic to call it "Pure and utter trash. Possibly the worst one thus far in Armada." before it even hits the table.

The card itself I very good. It's the design I'm no fan of. Unlimited with limited counter play is never good.

X-wing 2.0 tries to avoid it like the plague. Hence charges on so many cards.

But Moralo offers multiple activations per round. On your AND your opponent's turns. That's unprecedented and unwise.

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I get it, he sounds potentially overpowered. But can we at least wait with the balance whine till everybody had some time to actually try him out. Presumably FFG has playtested the card some while and deemed it not utterly game breaking. Its the same with the SSD. It looks pretty weak but before we all start whining about it lets just use it for a while and actually gather some data. 

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In every game there are cards that just should never be printed. In Armada the ability to activate a squadron potentially up to 20+ times in a single round is one of these things. Doesn't matter if he will be broken right now or not, although a skilled player will likely be able to pull the combo off.

Moralo at the very least will seriously affect the design space, because now you have to ask yourself for every new objective with objective token you design: will it be broken with Moralo? Every new way to interact with objective tokens: will it break with Moralo? Every new squadron buff (like Commander Woldar): will that break Moralo?

Sure new additions to a game might always break something, but here you are dealing with a force multiplier - and that is very dangerous design wise. Yavaris, Adar Tallon and Jendon are dominating Squadron builds for a reason and that is despite their limitations of up to three affected squadrons.

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It does seem quite strong.  Throw on Harrow on a Vic 1, FCT, some lambdas, season to taste.  Maybe at least it will lead to some dropping Jendon/Maarek for lambda/Moralo.  Although you could certainly fit a few Lambas, Moralo, Jendon/Maarek, and Zertik/Tel for escort together, and you're just losing Morna out of MMJ, so maybe that will be appealing.

I agree it's fair to wait until we get to play around with it, before getting too too worried.

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I honestly don't see how he is so broken.

There are arguments about Moralo getting to first last thanks to rouge. Well if you are first player to get the bulk of the activation shenanigans before I can react, you depend on my objecive tokens, should they exsist.

Thus to abuse Moralo would you would need a second player build. Which depending upon the first player fleet could be demo and raiders diving on the carrier, and flacking everything they can. Maybe it's 2 ship with squall, hateful 8 and a Kuat. Biding it's time until something gets into alph strike range. What if a flachette torpedo raider toggles all the lambdas with in token range and engages who is left? Maybe Howlrunner and a bunch of 8pt mooks dogpile him into ineffectiveness or death before he gets to chain off 20+ times this round. 

Honestly the more I think about it the more counter tatics I think up. I honestly don't understand where his overpowed status comes from and why people are worried. Sure he can be used to sealclub people who don't know better, so can sensor net and 2 ship, how is he different from either of them? 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Green Knight said:

The card itself I very good. It's the design I'm no fan of. Unlimited with limited counter play is never good.

X-wing 2.0 tries to avoid it like the plague. Hence charges on so many cards.

But Moralo offers multiple activations per round. On your AND your opponent's turns. That's unprecedented and unwise.

Here's the thing: there's plenty of counterplay. Heck, it's right in the word: Counter. A small wing of fighters with counter, something that's already extremely common, would do just fine. Sure, you'd certainly lose a bunch of them, but who cares? Tokra's list has invested over 130 points to optimize a single squadron. That is a giant level of investment. If I can throw less than half that amount at Moralo to kill him, that's a net plus.

I present you the Imperial and Rebel counters to Moralo:

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 9: 27)
    + Toryn Farr (7)
    + Bright Hope (2)
Shara Bey (17)
Tycho Celchu (16)
2 x A-wing Squadron (2 x 11)

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 3: 26)
    + Reserve Hangar Deck (3)
Ciena Ree (17)
Valen Rudor (13)
2 x Tie Interceptor Squadron (2 x 11)

Those are nothing special. They're not even tailored to take on Moralo. Those are just perfectly normal extracts from lists I already have. We can do all the theory crafting we want on this. We can "well what about..." all day long. Until I see someone take a super skew like this just to abuse Moralo and win a Regional, I'm just not going to worry.

As for X-Wing 2.0, you realize they're all the same developers, right? The same guys at FFG generally work on X-Wing, Legion, and Armada. Just check the credits. What you're really saying by invoking X-Wing 2.0 is Armada's playtesters are crap.

Edited by Truthiness

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Nova open is the next big Armada event in US? 28th August? With a bit of luck the RIM is allowed for it.

Lets hope there is no new FAQ coming out 🤪
And than we can count the Moralo and anti Moralo lists 😇

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Posted (edited)

I don't even know what an anti-Moralo list is. But here's a list I have just sitting around that I have zero problem taking against your Moralo list. Like I said, I just pulled those components out of list I already had sitting around. I don't even know if it's any good in general. I just know it would be fine at tying down Moralo.

Sloane Ship Heavy (52/395/400)
==============================
Cymoon 1 Refit (112 + 63: 175)
    + Admiral Sloane (24)
    + Captain Brunson (5)
    + Gunnery Team (7)
    + Intensify Firepower! (6)
    + Spinal Armament (9)
    + Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
    + Avenger (5)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 10: 54)
    + Ordnance Experts (4)
    + Reserve Hangar Deck (3)
    + External Racks (3)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 10: 54)
    + Ordnance Experts (4)
    + Reserve Hangar Deck (3)
    + External Racks (3)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 9: 32)
    + Comms Net (2)
    + Reserve Hangar Deck (3)
    + Suppressor (4)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 5: 28)
    + Comms Net (2)
    + Reserve Hangar Deck (3)
Ciena Ree (17)
Valen Rudor (13)
2 x Tie Interceptor Squadron (2 x 11)
Most Wanted
Contested Outpost
Doomed Station

Edited by Truthiness

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4 hours ago, Tokra said:

This would lower the lists to Moralo and anti Moralo

I really don't think so at worst Moralo makes lists take squadrons, and personally I don't think that's a bad thing.  I think this also assumes that stuff that is anti Moralo can't also be good against something else.

This group is more than capable of killing Moralo in one go, and even if he has escorts its still feasible to get him in one go sure requires some hot rolls on saber, but possible. 

Squadrons:
• Colonel Jendon (20)
• Maarek Stele (21)
• Mauler Mithel (15)
• Saber Squadron (12)
= 68 Points

I would also say that this group is fine going after ships or other squadron complements. Anything used to kill Marlo can also kill other squadrons, keep it so its also flexible aginst ships, and I really don't see the issue.

I mean 6 alpha striking ties are capable of killing Moralo in a single go. A Biggs ball could absorb Moralos damage then eat him.  E wings with Hera  last then firsting Moralo will do the trick as well. It's not as if these anti squadron solutions are unique to just dealing with Maralo.

You also have to consider in order to leverage all your possible activations you have to keep your squadrons at medium range of your ships, ships that keep themselves at long range limit the effectiveness Moralo abuse. Also Marolo would have a hard time running down @Truthiness ET CR-90s as it will take 3 movies at speed two to catch up and we could say you got the 3 moves from squall, but I do find that unlikely as its a positioning and logistical nightmare. Then you get 4 attacks doing 1 damage on avrage that wont kill the cr-90 and then if your other squadrons can reach that point to let him go crazy you can kill the CR 90, but then it just seams like you are throwing your squadrons out of support range to do that.

I don't see the extreme abuse being a thing, too many variables, and too dependent on an easily removed game piece. However he will help supplement shuttles in Imperal fish farm style lists.

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He doesn’t need to be in range of squall.  The shuttles that are moving the tokens do and they need to be in range 1 to move the token. I have see him move across the board in one round and shoot while still having range with shuttle support. He is beyond broken

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7 hours ago, Truthiness said:

Tokra's list has invested over 130 points to optimize a single squadron

Remember, i have done the same already earlier 😉.

My whole world list was basically build around Jendon + Stele. Everything in it was to support these two squadrons. The most damage, or better the biggest danger, in my list came from these two. 

From my first impression, i find Moralo worse. But i can be totally wrong. Without any testing it is hard to say. As i said, i currently focus on the SSD and how to deal with this one. 

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Posted (edited)

I have been praising the meta widely until now .... but  Moralo ? The earlier everyone will beg for a fix the better ...

To me, it's very simple : our game is currently unplayable competitively (or at least so boring that I would not consider attending). It will be back on track after the erratum.

Edited by Fanfan

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On 8/10/2019 at 12:34 AM, Tokra said:

From my first impression, i find Moralo worse. But i can be totally wrong. Without any testing it is hard to say.

He is totally broken, that's fore sure. Perhaps a good squadron list with lots of counter can handle him, but when you have to create a list to counter an omnipotent trick list, something went wrong.

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On 8/10/2019 at 9:39 AM, Ginkapo said:

Can you attack turn 0 with Ozzel? 

When do you remove fleet ambush tokens?

Hmm technically you could. 

The squadron is in play. The objective token is removed.

From the RRG

During setup, no card effects can be resolved except objective card effects.

BUT

The tokens are removed AFTER setup is complete. So we're not during setup anymore.

 

Ozzel wouldn't work though, but you don't need him to trigger Moralo. Just deploo within distance 1-3 + 1-2 (1-3 + 1-3 during the RITR campaign with the proper commander skill)

Edited by ovinomanc3r

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1 hour ago, spike2109 said:

He is totally broken, that's fore sure. Perhaps a good squadron list with lots of counter can handle him, but when you have to create a list to counter an omnipotent trick list, something went wrong.

Sorry again for this. I just wanted to test him, i had no idea that it will be this bad. 😰

 

Here are two pictures of the Moralo movement during the tournament we did yesterday.
Red lines are the movement from Moralo, yellow lines are the movement from Shuttles that triggered Moralo, blue lines are other movements, green lines are attacks (with the damage number).
I was first player and could do last/first. I activated last on turn 2 and could activate first on the next turn again. My opponent could only move his squadrons in the squadron phase, but could not attack.

This was last activation in turn 2:

y4mWJfwMUOeVOZjS22W5s-6pqn7_ZBRr9Z5wNtpI

Moralo came from the far left side, went all the way to Zertik and attacked, went further to the opponents Moralo, could attack 4 times on his own and one attack was from a shuttle (finishing him this way), after this he could go on and attack the Jumpmaster once. After this he could still move and hide on the asteroid.

 

This was the first activation in turn 3:

y4m4DR6at4obsxI4K5vqt5IQZKK4_WT8b6wJI0FA

First was Vader, who went in for a good 5 damage on Zertik. One shuttle was free for movement, moved out, attacked Black Squadron and allowed to move Moralo and attack (kill) the Jumpmaster. Next was Moralo direct, who went for Black and killed it. After this was another shuttle, who finished Zertik and was free to move after this, allowing Moralo to move again. Two more attacks from Moralo and a shuttle on Rhymer finished him as well. Still allowing Moralo to run and hide behind Vader.

 

And you really say this is not a little bit overpowered?
10 attack for 22 damage (even a bit below average) and 14 moves with one squadron in two turns?

Other "highlight" in this tournament: a MC75 died in 1 1/2 turns. Just from Moralo. There were still enough attacks left to kill another small ship. 

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6 minutes ago, Church14 said:

So what objectives do you take? It seems that you HAVE to have objective tokens not on terrain to make this work. 

Targeting Beacon, Fire Lanes, Hyperspace Migration (Sensor Net would work as well). 

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On 8/8/2019 at 7:53 PM, Tokra said:

24 if you use Sensor Net as objective.
25 when you even use 7 Shuttles and not 6.
And countless more on the second, because the opponents ships will give you token movements as well.

 

But it is not the question about most activations. It is about a competitive list. And a bid of 398 and no Rhymer is not 😉
I made this list:
http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=215758&key=8b59e622177bd4fb466e9080e7345796
Only 18 on first turn, but a bid of 29 and Rhymer to negate the ship counter.

Making my own version I came to maybe using Palpatine. I get the advantage of Thrawn but I was thinking on the power of 18 attacks on first turn with such a pressure on defense token.

If you face a bunch of aces you can choose brace or skatter to wipe them out more easily. If going after ships, redirects could be a great choice (or Salvo which doesn't care about Rhymer range stuff).

What do you think?

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1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Making my own version I came to maybe using Palpatine. I get the advantage of Thrawn but I was thinking on the power of 18 attacks on first turn with such a pressure on defense token.

If you face a bunch of aces you can choose brace or skatter to wipe them out more easily. If going after ships, redirects could be a great choice (or Salvo which doesn't care about Rhymer range stuff).

What do you think?

I thought as well about using Palpatine for the tournament fleet. He is really great for speeding it up. Against Squadrons you can rip them way faster. And even against ships you can push in way more damage.

But you are really loosing the way for the extra dial. I was using him with VSD and Quasar. And without Navigate, these two could go down really fast. 
In the end i might even go back to Sloane ( @187-Leon was using her with his Moralo, and it is really nice). Moralo might not profit from Sloane, but the Shuttles and Vader do. Combined with Fighter Coordination Team, the Shuttles are really nasty.  And the shuttles against ships will improve so much, that is even better than Palpatine (and way cheaper).

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