The T-47 gains barrage. Is it now playable?

[M.Mustermann 70]

Noone disputes that it is pretty much unplayable now in a competitive context, but Barrage would be a bad solution. It would make other things unplayable and the T-47 would become as ubiquitous as strike teams.

On top of that, it would make the rear weapon completly pointless instead of fixing the unit by making it a viable option.

[R3dReVenge 441]

Just now, M.Mustermann said:

Noone disputes that it is pretty much unplayable now in a competitive context, but Barrage would be a bad solution. It would make other things unplayable and the T-47 would become as ubiquitous as strike teams.

On top of that, it would make the rear weapon completly pointless instead of fixing the unit by making it a viable option.

 As I wrote earlier, this is an exaggerated statement. In what ways are units going to become unplayable? It's not like you've play tested the speeder with this keyword? How are you so confident that this upgrade will "break" the game. Any fear you have can be mitigated via point cost, OR they could reduce the speeders attack dice if the barrage card is purchased (similar to how they reduced the speed on the BARC speeder). 

I do agree with you that adding barrage to current vehicles via a pilot upgrade is a poor design change, but not for the reasons that you list. 

 

[M.Mustermann 70]

I did not say it will break the game.  However, it will defintetly be an extreme hard counter against a lot of commanders and a lot  of things that do not see a lot of play either, like  ATRTs for example.

It is not difficult to calculate the odds of 2 shots of one or two T-47 vs certain units.

It will make certain matchups just boring.

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by M.Mustermann

[Shieldwolf72 130]

I'd like to see something like REAR GUNNER that lets you do an action between your ARSENAL 2. So you could compulsory move, Fire forward, move, Fire rear.

[Tirion 2,223]

simple fix ground buzzer needs suppressive makes no sense it doesn't have it. main gun needs blast. now it's not perfect but a lot closer to getting the proper damage through and it wouldn't be wrecked against speeders, cause it should wreck them. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Tirion

[krebeck 43]

I might be lost but what card gives you the barrage keyword?

[thepopemobile100 977]

20 minutes ago, krebeck said:

I might be lost but what card gives you the barrage keyword?

Currently none. This is all theory crafting

[EagleScoutof007 236]

3 hours ago, Tirion said:

simple fix ground buzzer needs suppressive makes no sense it doesn't have it. main gun needs blast. now it's not perfect but a lot closer to getting the proper damage through and it wouldn't be wrecked against speeders, cause it should wreck them. 

I had thought of having blast on the main weapon. It's even mentioned in the movie about then being blasters right? "That armor is too strong for blasters" -Luke Skywalker

[craigden 20]

Why not give ground buzzer firing out of each side, not just to rear? Model allows for this!

Edited August 10, 2019 by craigden
360 degrees confused some folk.

[arnoldrew 1,713]

9 hours ago, EagleScoutof007 said:

I had thought of having blast on the main weapon. It's even mentioned in the movie about then being blasters right? "That armor is too strong for blasters" -Luke Skywalker

You know that blasters are what they call almost every energy weapon in Star Wars, right? Almost every unit in Legion carries a blaster.

[KommanderKeldoth 3,141]

3 hours ago, craigden said:

Why not give ground buzzer all round fire?

Becuase it can only shoot backwards on the model.

I think increasing both the forward and rear weapon ranges by 1 would help a bit.  

[Derrault 1,091]

On 8/9/2019 at 5:11 PM, R3dReVenge said:

 As I wrote earlier, this is an exaggerated statement. In what ways are units going to become unplayable? It's not like you've play tested the speeder with this keyword? How are you so confident that this upgrade will "break" the game. Any fear you have can be mitigated via point cost, OR they could reduce the speeders attack dice if the barrage card is purchased (similar to how they reduced the speed on the BARC speeder). 

I do agree with you that adding barrage to current vehicles via a pilot upgrade is a poor design change, but not for the reasons that you list. 

 

Everything? Two 47s would be expected to obliterate a squad of stormtroopers on average every turn. So, if the dice happen to go your way, the entire enemy army could be dead before the game even reaches 4 rounds

That’s oh so very broken.

[R3dReVenge 441]

4 hours ago, Derrault said:

Everything? Two 47s would be expected to obliterate a squad of stormtroopers on average every turn. So, if the dice happen to go your way, the entire enemy army could be dead before the game even reaches 4 rounds

That’s oh so very broken.

I think you missed the point about the my example of the barrage pilot being unique....

If the dice "ever go your way" your opponent could be easily tabled. That's what happens when you play dice games. Luck plays a big factor.

[Derrault 1,091]

10 hours ago, R3dReVenge said:

I think you missed the point about the my example of the barrage pilot being unique....

If the dice "ever go your way" your opponent could be easily tabled. That's what happens when you play dice games. Luck plays a big factor.

No, I didn’t. 1 barrage t-47 + 1 regular t-47 = 5.75 average wounds on a red save die.

That’s, on average an entire unit destroyed every round. Even slightly hot rolls means 2+ units getting obliterated each turn, or hey, why not just wax basically any commander?

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

On 8/9/2019 at 8:55 PM, thepopemobile100 said:

Currently none. This is all theory crafting

All I've seen so far is theorizing, not crafting.

 

Personally I suspect simply having made the rear gun a 360 degree arc would have helped a ton.

[R3dReVenge 441]

5 hours ago, Derrault said:

No, I didn’t. 1 barrage t-47 + 1 regular t-47 = 5.75 average wounds on a red save die.

That’s, on average an entire unit destroyed every round. Even slightly hot rolls means 2+ units getting obliterated each turn, or hey, why not just wax basically any commander?

2 AATs = 7 wounds after red dice saves. 2 AATs also cost 40 points less than 2 T-47s. 

However, both of our examples are ignoring a critical part of Legion, cover.

[Derrault 1,091]

1 hour ago, R3dReVenge said:

2 AATs = 7 wounds after red dice saves. 2 AATs also cost 40 points less than 2 T-47s. 

However, both of our examples are ignoring a critical part of Legion, cover.

The AAT also has no short range game, no free move, and weak point 2 rear, which is basically a death sentence.

[R3dReVenge 441]

7 minutes ago, Derrault said:

The AAT also has no short range game, no free move, and weak point 2 rear, which is basically a death sentence.

This is just wrong, but believe what you want.  

[Ralgon 1,005]

On 8/10/2019 at 10:34 AM, krebeck said:

I might be lost but what card gives you the barrage keyword?

None. People are trying to armchair dev after seeing the rules on the aat's announcement 

[Matt Antilles 333]

Barrage would make rear facing guns more worthwhile, not obsolete, because you could fire them twice if you had a shot. Getting both a front and rear shot at the same time is kind of a unicorn. Being able to shoot a ground buzzer twice at the same target is essentially suppressive. 

A unit that costs 200 points should be devastating and terrifying.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Matt Antilles

[Derrault 1,091]

@R3dReVenge
"This is just wrong, but believe what you want."

The statements you seemed to think were 'wrong'

No short range game - at range 1 it only can throw 3 black no surge dice fixed front. That's an average of 1.5 hits, i.e. nothing into cover.
If you care to discuss what you think is saving the AAT at short range, by all means, please explain yourself.

no free move, and weak point 2 rear, which is basically a death sentence - That pretty much guarantees a wound for every attack that targets it in the rear, that's before considering something like the 47 would be hitting it at Impact 5 (Luke can hit it for Impact 4, Vader, who will be able to infiltrate(!) for Impact 5)

This isn't a belief, it's just a fact. The freebie impact 2 is going to wreck this thing in very short order without significant protections around it (at which point you're committing well over 170 points to 'trying' to ensure it can barrage).

 

The 47 doesn't need barrage, and if it had barrage it could down the AAT in a single volley (Impact 10, effectively, just wow.)

[Matt Antilles 333]

Doesnt the AAT have red defense dice? If so then lol.

[thepopemobile100 977]

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

No short range game - at range 1 it only can throw 3 black no surge dice fixed front. That's an average of 1.5 hits, i.e. nothing into cover.
If you care to discuss what you think is saving the AAT at short range, by all means, please explain yourself.

The fact that it can move once and go from range 1 to potentially 3 as we don't know how big the base is.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

no free move, and weak point 2 rear, which is basically a death sentence - That pretty much guarantees a wound for every attack that targets it in the rear, that's before considering something like the 47 would be hitting it at Impact 5 (Luke can hit it for Impact 4, Vader, who will be able to infiltrate(!) for Impact 5)

You'd have to get behind it first, which in itself will be a trial as it can sit at range 4 and pound targets. Depending on deployment (read battle lines, disarray, and advanced positions) it may be impossible to get behind it as the range is far enough that it can justify sitting on the edge of the table. T-47 doesn't do enough damage to validate going for the rear to begin with as you don't deal enough damage to actually take advantage of impact 5 and would then also require to stay in that arc, which also depending on where you approach from will also be impossible. Vader is scary for all vehicles and that isn't changing. He still will have to take the minimum of 2 rounds of bee-lining straight to the AAT before he could take advantage of impact 5. It's also a lot less scary in general since the opponent has to play it turn 1 and you'll know ahead of time so you can plan on going first anyway.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

The 47 doesn't need barrage, and if it had barrage it could down the AAT in a single volley (Impact 10, effectively, just wow.)

Do you really wanna go down possibilities again? Because averaging your whole 3.75 damage with barrage after defense and trying to say its feasible to more than double that is dumb. Because it's possible for a Z-6 squad to kill an AAT in one turn, but no one is gonna say it will happen.

[thepopemobile100 977]

10 minutes ago, Matt Antilles said:

Doesnt the AAT have red defense dice? If so then lol.

Yes it does, which is partly why his "logic" comes across as dumb.

[R3dReVenge 441]

39 minutes ago, Matt Antilles said:

Doesnt the AAT have red defense dice? If so then lol.

It was one of the reasons why I didn't reply with a detailed explanation. 9 wounds with red defense dice and armor. The AAT is the toughest vehicle to take down. Imagine when it can be repaired via repair droids... 

2 hours ago, Derrault said:

@R3dReVenge
"This is just wrong, but believe what you want."

The statements you seemed to think were 'wrong'

No short range game - at range 1 it only can throw 3 black no surge dice fixed front. That's an average of 1.5 hits, i.e. nothing into cover.
If you care to discuss what you think is saving the AAT at short range, by all means, please explain yourself.

no free move, and weak point 2 rear, which is basically a death sentence - That pretty much guarantees a wound for every attack that targets it in the rear, that's before considering something like the 47 would be hitting it at Impact 5 (Luke can hit it for Impact 4, Vader, who will be able to infiltrate(!) for Impact 5)

This isn't a belief, it's just a fact. The freebie impact 2 is going to wreck this thing in very short order without significant protections around it (at which point you're committing well over 170 points to 'trying' to ensure it can barrage).

 

The 47 doesn't need barrage, and if it had barrage it could down the AAT in a single volley (Impact 10, effectively, just wow.)

The AAT has the hover key word which allows it to move back which lets it keep enemies at range 3. It also doesn't need to shoot at the closest units since you will have an army of 630 points nearby. You can always use your other units to cover the AAT. Let the AAT destroy stuff at far range with it's 8 red dice, critical 4. Also, it has a short range weapon with the scatter key word. That will be nasty. 

The free move is a blessing and a curse. You get a free move, but it also forces you to move. This puts you in range of more targets and also makes you more vulnerable to more enemies. Most importantly, it can mess with your firing arc which lets your opponent to strategically evade your vehicle. Weak point 2 rear isn't really a downside. Remember, you have 9 wounds with red defense dice. The game only lasts 6 turns. How many times will your opponent be shooting into the rear of your AAT? The answer should be 0-1 if the vehicle is well positioned. 

The AAT is anything but a death trap which is why I said your statement just wasn't true. 

Your last statement really confuses me. How is the T-47 getting behind the AAT? How does the Separatist player let this happen? I think you're making these claims as if your opponent isn't playing strategically (hence why your damage output assumes no cover).

I played one game against the AAT and I was wowed by it's damage potential. I couldn't even get close without getting blasted. 

Now let's talk about the T-47

Barrage would be a lazy fix to a poorly balanced vehicle, but I don't think it will break the vehicle. Which is why I'm not opposed to giving the rebels a barrage pilot at around 30 points. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by R3dReVenge