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Des Darklighter

Flipping Dials?

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A ship is still considered to reveal its dial at the appropriate stage of activation, even if the dial has already been flipped face-up. Only situations where there is no dial to reveal at all (e.g. ion maneuver) skip this step.

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2 hours ago, Maui. said:

A ship is still considered to reveal its dial at the appropriate stage of activation, even if the dial has already been flipped face-up. Only situations where there is no dial to reveal at all (e.g. ion maneuver) skip this step.

I would disagree. A ship with an already revealed dial would just skip the "reveal dial" step of the activation phase.  Unless i missed it in the RR, there is nothing stating that a ship has "considered to reveal its dial at the appropriate stage of activation, even if the dial has already been flipped face-up."

because per the RR:

1. Reveal Dial: The ship’s assigned dial is revealed by flipping it face-up and then placing it next to its ship card. (you cannot do this since it has already been revealed so the step is skipped)

 

 

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28 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

Reveal Dial: The ship’s assigned dial is revealed by flipping it face-up and then placing it next to its ship card. (you cannot do this since it has already been revealed so the step is skipped)

Actually, were talking the state in which the dial has already been flipped but it hasn't been revealed (we know revealing the dial requires it to flip, we are never told flipping dial causes it to reveal - similarly taking damage causes assigning a damage card but not the other way around).

Open question is - can a ship reveal a dial while it's already flipped? One one hand the difference in abilities ("look at / flip") is there, on another FFG's technical writing is terrible. I believe that if this was the intended interaction it would've been made much more apparent to work this way. 

This topic has talked about this issue in the past, including a DM screenshot that's been said to come from FFG.

 

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Yeah watching the GenCon games this weekend, whenever something like Sense was used to look at a dial, the opponent looked at said dial, then always placed it back face down. The controlling player then still flipped it later in the activation.

This held true in the final game, which was overseen by the judges/head judge and no one said that was wrong.

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25 minutes ago, InterceptorMad said:

Yeah watching the GenCon games this weekend, whenever something like Sense was used to look at a dial, the opponent looked at said dial, then always placed it back face down. The controlling player then still flipped it later in the activation.

This held true in the final game, which was overseen by the judges/head judge and no one said that was wrong.

However, Sense specifically says to "look at the dial" not "flip the dial" as some other cards do, i.e. Snoke, Cassian, Informant. 

Mind that I support both sorts of these cards working the exact same way and not preventing the reveal triggers. I do recognise the wording difference, however. 

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5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's not worth paying attention to wording differences in most cases.  They're not intentional, FFG is just bad at templating.

Counterpoint, they're actually really good at this, and they meant there to be a difference between the two, and the text has been expertly crafted so it's not the same wording, ergo they have different effect.

See, the problem is that without word from the creator, it's reallllllly hard to measure intent in a game like this (one of the few ones I can think that EVERYONE seems to agree is landing struts, and.... that's it?) so it's good to take the word as always 100% true, because that is what is written. So if there's a difference in wording between check and/or reveal, I would argue that we have to say they're two different effect.

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53 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

So if there's a difference in wording between check and/or reveal, I would argue that we have to say they're two different effect.

Soo, just as I've pointed out in the other thread - some effects cause the ship to flip their dial before they'd do it as a part of them revealing the dial. 

Sticking to your rule and taking the text 100% as it stands, we cannot conclude that flipping the dial causes it to be revealed, as flipping is only one of two elements of revealing a dial (the other one is to place the dial next to the ship's card which you're not doing via e.g. Snoke). So, sticking only to the rules as written, Snoke would put the dial in a state where it wasn't revealed yet, but then it cannot be revealed anymore. 

Now comes the fun part, during the Execute Manouvre step of the Activation Phase, ship executes the manouvre selected on the revealed dial. 

So, if there's none, the ship should halt as if with a white stop manouvre. 

To break this loophole you'd either have to assume Snoke satisfies all the condition of revealing a dial (which does not follow from the rules strictly) or that Snoke doesn't prevent the dial from being revealed (which, again, does not follow from the rules strictly). One way or another, we sorta kinda have to accept FFG doesn't handle making their rulebooks' writing bulletproof.

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to take this even further, let's assume a ship gets its dial flipped faceup before the dial is revealed. when the ship reveals it's dial, it's instructed to flip it faceup. the player would then flip the dial faceup (360 degrees, preferably with a neat throw) and execute the maneuver on the now revealed faceup dial. ^_^

that's RAW for you.

Swz18_supreme-leader-snoke_a2.pngSwz45_vi-moradi.pngSwz45_compromising-intel.png

Capture.jpgCapture.jpg

 

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3 minutes ago, meffo said:

to take this even further, let's assume a ship gets its dial flipped faceup before the dial is revealed. when the ship reveals it's dial, it's instructed to flip it faceup. the player would then flip the dial faceup (360 degrees, preferably with a neat throw) and execute the maneuver on the now revealed faceup dial. ^_^

that's RAW for you.

Swz18_supreme-leader-snoke_a2.pngSwz45_vi-moradi.pngSwz45_compromising-intel.png

Capture.jpgCapture.jpg

 

🤨 Omittion is unbecoming: "and then placing it next to its ship card."

So flipping a dial does not fulfill the definition of "revealing the dial".

For why the distinction is important:

Planning Phase

The Planning Phase is the first phase of the round. During the Planning Phase, each player secretly sets a maneuver for each of their ships. To set a ship's maneuver, the player takes a dial matching the ship's type and rotates the dial until the arrow points at the desired maneuver. Then the dial is placed facedown in the play area next to the matching ship.

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38 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Omittion is unbecoming: "and then placing it next to its ship card."

So flipping a dial does not fulfill the definition of "revealing the dial".

For why the distinction is important:

Planning Phase

The Planning Phase is the first phase of the round. During the Planning Phase, each player secretly sets a maneuver for each of their ships. To set a ship's maneuver, the player takes a dial matching the ship's type and rotates the dial until the arrow points at the desired maneuver. Then the dial is placed facedown in the play area next to the matching ship.

You might have to help me out here because I still don't understand why that distinction is important

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Maui. said:

You might have to help me out here because I still don't understand why that distinction is important

RAW when you set a dial during the Planning Phase you place it face down next to the ship. When you reveal it you flip it face up  and place it next to the ship card. If all you're doing is flipping the dial face up you still leave it next to the ship since you're not instructed to place it next to the ship card. Then when the Reveal Dial step is reached during that ship's activation the dial is placed, still face up, next to the ship card fulfilling the requirement for "revealed dial".

Frankly it looks like allot of the confusion is coming from loose play resulting in forgetting what the instructions actually read (I.E. placing the dials next to the ship card during the planning phase, leaving them on the mat after they're flipped as part of the Reveal Dial step, fiddling with them during the Engagement and End phases, etc. All of which actually violate the rules of the game.). :)

Edited by Hiemfire

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1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

RAW when you set a dial during the Planning Phase you place it face down next to the ship. When you reveal it you flip it face up  and place it next to the ship card. If all you're doing is flipping the dial face up you still leave it next to the ship since you're not instructed to place it next to the ship card. Then when the Reveal Dial step is reached during that ship's activation the dial is placed, still face up, next to the ship card fulfilling the requirement for "revealed dial".

Frankly it looks like allot of the confusion is coming from loose play resulting in forgetting what the instructions actually read (I.E. placing the dials next to the ship card during the planning phase, leaving them on the mat after they're flipped as part of the Reveal Dial step, fiddling with them during the Engagement and End phases, etc. All of which actually violate the rules of the game.). :)

I agree. As long as the ship in question has a dial (face-up or face-down) then it still qualifies as revealing its maneuver when it activates. I was confused because it sounded like you were disagreeing with Meffo, who was cheekily pointing out that you could take a face-up dial and flip it face-up, which would qualify as revealing the maneuver, even though it started face-up

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Just now, Maui. said:

I agree. As long as the ship in question has a dial (face-up or face-down) then it still qualifies as revealing its maneuver when it activates. I was confused because it sounded like you were disagreeing with Meffo, who was cheekily pointing out that you could take a face-up dial and flip it face-up, which would qualify as revealing the maneuver, even though it started face-up

Looks like I missed the undertone in their post... Meh, happens.

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3 hours ago, meffo said:

 the player would then flip the dial faceup (360 degrees, preferably with a neat throw) 

that's RAW for you.

 

I am now going to exclusively play Snooke / Vi moradi just to do sick tricks! 😂 Amazing.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, meffo said:

...the player would then flip the dial faceup (360 degrees, preferably with a neat throw)...

...exCUSE me, a 360 degree flip would result in the dial still face down.

While a simple 180 is technically within the constraints of the rules, it is considered good table etiquette to achieve at least a 540 degree flip (900 degree flips are considered advanced techniques, and only are recommended for premiere level events).

It helps if I read the context of the first entry, you know. 

I DONE PLAYED MYSELF ;)

Edited by emeraldbeacon

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