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gadwag

Mag Pulse Missiles Are Not Fun

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swz62_mag-pulse-warheads.png

Note: I'm assuming that deplete tokens are the same as strain tokens, but for attack. i.e.:
"A ship is depleted while it has at least one deplete token. While a depleted ship attacks, it rolls 1 fewer defense die. The deplete token is a red token.
- After a depleted ship attacks, it removes 1 deplete token.
- After a depleted ship executes a blue manoeuvre, it removes 1 deplete token."

<Engage freakout drive>

Deplete tokens will slow the game. Remember captain Rex and his fair-ship rebels from 1.0, where your attacks were absorbed into nothingness? Well, now anyone that can land a missile shot will hand out a deplete token, a jam token, and a crit to boot. I enjoy playing X-Wing, and I enjoy it most when ships are taking damage and exploding (even if they are my own ships). Games are less fun when they drag on forever, but now Mag-Pulse Warheads are here to help you make sure all your games go to time.

</Disengage freakout drive>

On a calmer note, these missiles have a few redeeming features. They have to hit to take effect, but more importantly, they do damage. This means that even if games are dragging on, people are still taking damage. Furthermore, we don't know the points value for these. My hope is that they will be expensive and scale with initiative to very high costs indeed, because a mag-pulse warhead is most dangerous early in combat.

All the same, I'd have much preferred to see this missile do only a crit and a jam. This is still a very powerful effect, and one that I'd be quite interested in equipping on a scyk or z-95 so that I can soften up a target for my other ships to shoot.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the mirror counterpart to these missiles that deals out a strain token. Firing those will be much more fun, because it will make things go "boom" not "pfft".

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1 hour ago, gadwag said:

Furthermore, we don't know the points value for these. My hope is that they will be expensive and scale with initiative to very high costs indeed, because a mag-pulse warhead is most dangerous early in combat.

Well, compare the Ion Missile (4 points) and it should be - being massively superior in basically every field:

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  • You're automatically upgrading a hit to a critical, like proton torpedoes.
  • You're delivering a jam and deplete token. Even assuming a jam or deplete token isn't 'as bad' - which I'm not convinced of - you're delivering two negative token types simultaneously.
  • You deliver two tokens automatically if you hit, whilst ion missiles only deliver tokens if they get a second un-cancelled hit.

 

I think they deserve to be pretty expensive; they look very powerful for missiles. I know people have been saying missiles are underpowered but this could be a big kick up in effectiveness.

 

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The big thing I hadn't noticed about them is that they're the first range 1-3 missile which is a whole new thing.

Their effects are more immediately useful on high init platforms than ions, and the damage always being a crit can be super strong, as well as the effects being very interesting on the joust against something that wants to K turn soon.  I'd be pretty surprised if they're not at least 6 points.

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9 minutes ago, Vector Strike said:

Every new added mechanic will slow down the game

That's a bold statement, for sure.

I can think of a lot of mechanics which, if added, would dramatically speed up the game.

They probably wouldn't be balanced, but... if speed is what you care about, for instance, a 6 dice range 1-3 torpedo with Attack:Focus would definitely speed up the game...

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I'm.... unconvinced. Damage super matters, they'll be expensive for that max 1 crit. Negative effects are useful ofc, but they don't stack.

In a missile spam scenario, they don't seem like they'll be a whole lot more effective than Homing and the price will mount up prohibitively.

So you're possibly looking at a more restricted number, 1 or 2 at high Init maybe, at which point your list is being built around them and becoming awkward to balance against the field. When you're paying for a higher Init ship with the slot, you're often better just maximising their damage output.

Serissu will quite like them though and there'll be other good carriers but it's still seeming a bit niche to me. There will ships that absolutely don't want to be hit by one, how many of them are likely to be hit by one is another matter.

Obviously, it all depends on cost. 6 will see decent use, 7 or 8 and it's going to be a very hard inclusion.

They'll be useful but I don't see it going much further than that.

But I could be way wrong ofc.

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3 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Serissu will quite like them though and there'll be other good carriers but it's still seeming a bit niche to me. There will ships that absolutely don't want to be hit by one, how many of them are likely to be hit by one is another matter.

Absolutely fine with niche. I like that it's situational. If you want to take it, you'll need to be aware of who and when it's good. Can't just throw it around randomly and it work.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I'm.... unconvinced. Damage super matters, they'll be expensive for that max 1 crit. Negative effects are useful ofc, but they don't stack.

In a missile spam scenario, they don't seem like they'll be a whole lot more effective than Homing and the price will mount up prohibitively.

So you're possibly looking at a more restricted number, 1 or 2 at high Init maybe, at which point your list is being built around them and becoming awkward to balance against the field. When you're paying for a higher Init ship with the slot, you're often better just maximising their damage output.

Serissu will quite like them though and there'll be other good carriers but it's still seeming a bit niche to me. There will ships that absolutely don't want to be hit by one, how many of them are likely to be hit by one is another matter.

Obviously, it all depends on cost. 6 will see decent use, 7 or 8 and it's going to be a very hard inclusion.

They'll be useful but I don't see it going much further than that.

But I could be way wrong ofc.

The real thing I see with them is that they're a 3 die attack, which on average isn't going to get much more than one damage through anyway, single modded, against 2-or-more agility.  So why not do 1 crit guaranteed, and some bonus stuff?

It's a lot worse against 1 or 0 agility though.

Edited by thespaceinvader

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I hope this missile is at least ten points. It does stupid things to the game. Here is a contrived scenario highlighting what makes it dumb:

It's a mirror match between a bunch of TIE /sf with passive sensors and mag pulse. Both lists roll up and use passive sensors.

Player 1 engages, uses passive for locks, and fires mags, handing out damage, jam, and deplete.

Player 2 engages. Their passive sensors resolve, and they take a lock that's immediately removed by the jam token. So they fire their primary, except it's reduced by one, so they're only rolling one unmodified attack dice, and player 1 is getting range bonus.

Player 1's ships have an 83% chance of doing one crit. Player 2's ships have an 88% chance of missing entirely.

--

A weapon that jams and does damage is terrifying. A weapon that reduces your attack value is terrifying. This weapon does both, can be equipped at I6, isn't unique, and only needs one hit to go through to trigger all of its effects. On top of all that, it's even range 1-3!

Kylo is tanky now? Just wait until Quickdraw is shooting a missile backwards at you at i6, that crits (Kylo), jams, and depletes the range one shot you skillfully setup after blocking him. Four dice with focus are suddenly three dice unmodded and you're double stressed, Kylo takes 0-1 damage, and you take three turns to get an action again.

I hate it. Ten points or more, please.

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5 hours ago, gadwag said:

Deplete tokens will slow the game.... Games are less fun when they drag on forever, but now Mag-Pulse Warheads are here to help you make sure all your games go to time.

You seem to go under the assumption that all games have a time limit.  Only tournament games have time limits.  This is unnecessary to have fun.  I also consider the time limit pretty lame when it encourages people to rush in with an alpha strike and then run away until time runs out. 

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

The big thing I hadn't noticed about them is that they're the first range 1-3 missile which is a whole new thing.

Not quite.  Barrage Rockets are R 1-3, but require 2 missile slots.  So....this is the first missile that only takes 1 slot that is R 1-3.   I did notice this, too, though, and find it noteworthy.  

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

You seem to go under the assumption that all games have a time limit.  Only tournament games have time limits.  This is unnecessary to have fun.  I also consider the time limit pretty lame when it encourages people to rush in with an alpha strike and then run away until time runs out. 

Not quite.  Barrage Rockets are R 1-3, but require 2 missile slots.  So....this is the first missile that only takes 1 slot that is R 1-3.   I did notice this, too, though, and find it noteworthy.  

Um?

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It's easy to get confused with BR though, since every ship that can currently fire them only has a 2 primary, so it means you have attack 3 at all ranges.

Edited by thespaceinvader

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19 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

You missed the biggest thing: mag pulse EXCEEDINGLY rewards firing first so you completely neuter your opponent before they attack

Because we needed more reason to fly high I 

Without a bid though?

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27 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

You missed the biggest thing: mag pulse EXCEEDINGLY rewards firing first so you completely neuter your opponent before they attack

Because we needed more reason to fly high I 

But it’s the opposite reason for flying high I. Now it’s about shooting as fast as possible to get these to proc. So, now you’re not taking an Uber bid because you really really want to shoot them off.

I think they’re fine. They’ll be expensive, probably too expensive out the gate. Then ffg will price drop them and they’ll be everywhere for a season. Then ffg will get it right in attempt 3 and they will be a solid tactical option that isn’t proliferated everywhere at all times like when it got undercosted.

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17 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

But it’s the opposite reason for flying high I. Now it’s about shooting as fast as possible to get these to proc. So, now you’re not taking an Uber bid because you really really want to shoot them off.

You'd still want a bid, though, alongside your high initiative, to control who engages first.

As noted, a higher initiative ship with Mag-Pulse warheads can basically neuter a target which requires a token to attack effectively - be that Chiraneau's reinforce, a missile, or just a focus token for a generic. If deplete also drops your attack by one, you're basically killing that attack's effectiveness. It's not as bad as a weapon which drops a disarm token on the target, but it's still pretty impressive.

Now I don't mind that per se; I give up an attack of mine to remove an attack of yours is kind of the principle behind a jamming beam shot (albeit that jamming beams suck, which is why they're 0 points); but the fact that you only need 1 uncancelled hit to deliver that effect and a critical is surprising.

By comparison, Diamond-boron Missiles are a double-missile upgrade and limited (1) and one shot (if you want to use their special ability, since it takes 2 charges and they're a 3-charge upgrade).

 

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2 hours ago, svelok said:

I hope this missile is at least ten points. It does stupid things to the game. Here is a contrived scenario highlighting what makes it dumb:

It's a mirror match between a bunch of TIE /sf with passive sensors and mag pulse. Both lists roll up and use passive sensors.

Player 1 engages, uses passive for locks, and fires mags, handing out damage, jam, and deplete.

Player 2 engages. Their passive sensors resolve, and they take a lock that's immediately removed by the jam token. So they fire their primary, except it's reduced by one, so they're only rolling one unmodified attack dice, and player 1 is getting range bonus.

Player 1's ships have an 83% chance of doing one crit. Player 2's ships have an 88% chance of missing entirely.

--

A weapon that jams and does damage is terrifying. A weapon that reduces your attack value is terrifying. This weapon does both, can be equipped at I6, isn't unique, and only needs one hit to go through to trigger all of its effects. On top of all that, it's even range 1-3!

Kylo is tanky now? Just wait until Quickdraw is shooting a missile backwards at you at i6, that crits (Kylo), jams, and depletes the range one shot you skillfully setup after blocking him. Four dice with focus are suddenly three dice unmodded and you're double stressed, Kylo takes 0-1 damage, and you take three turns to get an action again.

I hate it. Ten points or more, please.

Up up up. It should be the price of protons or more. 

I’ll also point out that it’s better on high initiative pilots than low ones, because if deplete goes off like strain, and your target has already shot, then the deplete token only serves to force your opponent into blue maneuvers they might have already selected anyway. 

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3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

The real thing I see with them is that they're a 2 die attack, which on average isn't going to get much more than one damage through anyway, single modded, against 2-or-more agility.  So why not do 1 crit guaranteed, and some bonus stuff?

It's a lot worse against 1 or 0 agility though.

Am I mis-reading? These Mag pulse missiles look like a three die attack to me.

I agree with all who are saying these had better be expensive and scale with initiative. Mods are life in this game. Losing both mods and attack die is very harsh. And a critical damage as well. And they will be more harsh on ships who are trading the agility to make these miss for the attack values these are going to take away. 

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46 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Am I mis-reading? These Mag pulse missiles look like a three die attack to me.

I agree with all who are saying these had better be expensive and scale with initiative. Mods are life in this game. Losing both mods and attack die is very harsh. And a critical damage as well. And they will be more harsh on ships who are trading the agility to make these miss for the attack values these are going to take away. 

No I'm just mis-typing.  Fixed, thanks.

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

And they will be more harsh on ships who are trading the agility to make these miss for the attack values these are going to take away. 

This. A torpedo-armed TIE Punisher- for the sake of argument - is going to really hate these things.

Passive Sensors lock....

"Eat a four dice locked proton torpedo!"

Ka-Magpulse!

"No, thanks, I think I'd rather take a single unmodified red die and get my range three defence bonus. Also, lose a shield to a critical hit."

"Have I mentioned recently how much I hate you?"

 

Now don't get me wrong - I don't mind the existence of this as an idea; the jam action kind of sucks, and the jamming beam sucks more, so if you want a reliable way of suppressing incoming ordnance fire you need something better than those. But this is so much better that it deserves to be expensive - and I agree, probably initiative-scaled in price; it's going to be a much nastier thing to face on higher initiative pilots, especially Quickdraw who can use it to knock out one attacker then use her bonus attack to deliver a 'normal' attack anyway.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

You missed the biggest thing: mag pulse EXCEEDINGLY rewards firing first so you completely neuter your opponent before they attack

Because we needed more reason to fly high I 

This is my real issue with them. I think bad tokens have to be balanced around retention to next rounds otherwise every new bad token does this.

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