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Crimsonwarlock

Ethics Question: Concessions

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11 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I've lost what you're referencing here.

Ah of course. 2am brain, I should get some sleep. You mentioned this quote earlier in the thread

On 8/6/2019 at 9:48 PM, Jeff Wilder said:

See, you say "shaming," but I say "justified dislike of unethical behavior, couple with vocal expression of same."  I get that one is a lot wordier than the other.

Philosophically, and historically, the way that things work toward congruence between "ethical" and "legal" is when people speak up against the unethical ... even when it's technically legal.

That's what I had in mind. Of course I'm mixing internal and external viewpoints here in a way that goes maybe too far for this thread.

Anyway, have to get some sleep before I revisit the thread and decide whether I try to force some Xwing on you :P

16 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Full drop is fine. 

No drops. Only concession and then playing the cut on the next day. How does that change your answers?

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7 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I would never have played X-Wing, or D&D Miniatures, or Wings of Glory, if the miniatures were unpainted.  (And I would be significantly richer today.)  It's pretty much impossible to overstate how little interest I have in painting miniatures.

To that end, I'm potentially interested in painting one or some minis. I painted my templates and such. But I am in the same place, I have no desire to paint my collection.

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7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

No drops. Only concession and then playing the cut on the next day. How does that change your answers?

On the ones where I'd misread them as dropping, as long as they're not aiming to artificially alter the cut it isn't unethical.

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3 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

Have you actually read it? I copied and pasted the section in question. heres a link to them so you can read over them.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/e0/4f/e04f6d73-6e5e-4351-b067-0020f070365a/fantasy_flight_floor_rules.pdf

They gave an EXAMPLE or two but they by no means outlined each and every possible permutation. There is still room for interpretation. That is a large part of why we have judges in the first place. (although because I have a different view on what is ethical, we have at a judge here who would ban me before the event even started without being allowed to unpack my models).

The different reasons for conceding are varied and many of them, I could agree with but we arent discussing those. TO ME. going into an event with the express purpose of using that for personal benefit in the specific way outlined is unethical. i've been told for 7 pages now that I dont have the right to have that opinion.

 

I have read it, and I just did again.  Have you read it?

"Collusion occurs whenever two or more players discuss an outcome for their game before the game’s conclusion and then artificially or randomly determine the results of the game based on that discussion."

"Please note that concession, in and of itself, is not collusion. Players are allowed to concede a game at any time before the end of the game,so long as there was no discussion or solicitation involved."

They gave 2 examples for the sake of illustration, but the text I literally copied and pasted DO cover EACH AND EVERY possible permutation.

And finally, of course you have the right to espouse opinions on what constitutes ethical behavior. (Show me an example of someone who has denied you this right please.) But it sounds like you've been arguing what constitutes legal behavior.

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Posted (edited)

1.Does not cut it with me. I am old and 6'11". with  a bad back and busted up knees. I am usually hurting by the end of my first game and by the end of the night am in excruciating pain from standing on my feet hunched over a table. i suffer through it because I knew what i was going into beforehand and made a commitment to play all of my games. i expect the same from the others who are in less pain and are less tired than me.

2. Same as #1. I made a commitment. To me it is dishonorable to back out on a comitted promise to do something. No different to me, from promising your 10 year old son you will play a game with them on a friday night and then blowing them off to have beers with your buds instead.

3. This is where it gets a little gray. I would say it depends on the plans. If its along the lines of "I'll see you guys at the bar when the tourneys over", it doesnt cut it. While having promised to pick up your daughter at the mall when the movie lets out would be a good reason to me.

4. If that is the one way, by all means. Your safety is more important. If it is a bus that runs every hour, not an excuse.

5. To me personally. Not a good enough reason. I was in that position before and no one took pity on me and it helped me become a better player so that eventually, i was able to make cut on my own. i can understand others having different views and I'd have no problem with someone if they did it.

6. To me, not a good reason. Being there alone gives you exposure. This is especially so with folks recording and broadcasting games. A list that good will draw notice even without wins. Besides if it is that good a list and you beat it, you should take pride in the accomplishment.

7. Does not cut it with me either. I can understand. After all, remember in earlier posts? i played Gaurd in 40k. A great fluffy army that rarely made it to the top. I did with it in locals but never on gimmie games. i EARNED my wins and prizes. I honestly believe that designers actually notice these things and take action... eventually.

8. DEFINATELY not a good reason. Special treatment for is just as bad as special treatment against. Were someone to throw games for me just because of my skin color or something like that, I would be humiliated. It is an insult to the person to do this in my view.

9. I would say no. That would smell to much like open collaboration to me because even if you dont make a pact, you know one another well enough to know whats going on. plus, friends try to help one another become better players so they can win on their own. gimmie games dont do that

10. and 11. Both , to me are just totally unacceptable.

Of course, these are just my personal views and opinions on these different situations.

*cue 7 pages of spam flames telling me how full stop wrong i am to hold these views. lol

burgler read the rules. That if your interpretation of what collusion is. It appears that we just disagree on what can be considered collusion. To me, intentionally signing results that did not happen for an offered free win is/should be considered collusion or at the least accepting a bribe. actually saying the word or writing the contract is one thing accepting an unspoken offer is another. i feel they fall under the same umbrella. Well, we also disagree that that specific instance is unethical or that those who feel that way has the right to that opinion.

Edited by EVIL INC

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3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

On the ones where I'd misread them as dropping, as long as they're not aiming to artificially alter the cut it isn't unethical.

For the most part, I totally agree. careful, you are likely to get flamed for that opinion as well .lol

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11 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

nice claims. So, YOU are the SOLE judge of all tournaments large AND small worldwide (only your word that your one at all) . there is not a SINGLE judge who would judge against it? The game designers specifically left that loophole because they intended for it to be used that way?

 

 

image.png.b5622abfb3e895e2b69d1a6c30b0155c.png

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10 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

Cool. a picture of a couple guys playing a game while two others and looking in the opposite direction in a disinterested fashion.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!  You must be new or ignorant to what you are looking at.  That is a recording from Gold Squadron Podcast, while the person in a blue shirt, such as the one you see is a judge.  This is the final table of worlds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyT8zp5-RcI at 5:24:00 and you notice that judge never leaves that table and watches the game the whole time.  That judge is Killerardvark.  As a video caster myself, which you can confirm through facebook since I keep my same name, I 100% can confirm Killers claim of being a top tier judge.  Who also has direct contact with other judges, is sought after for rules clarifications and is highly respected in X-Wing.  All this can be confirmed through almost every xwing podcast, facebook, and literally googling his id "Killerardvark" and seeing what is actual name is and who he is in X-Wing.  

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Posted (edited)

The judge in the picture is not even watching the game. Unless there is another one being played out of frame to the right.. As he is claiming to be one and only x wing judge to work at tournaments worldwide, I would imagine that he is kept rather busy. Or are we going to acknowledge that I am correct and that there are multiple judges and that different ones might or might not judge differently and say that artificially altering game results is against the spirit of the competition and intent of the game designers and say that it is unacceptable? that we should leave ruling on the rules up to the judges of the event being held. Personally, I know that when I worked as a sanitarian, I would never go into a different county and step on the toes of the ones in the other county and tell them how they should write their reports and I certainly would not allow one from another county to come into mine and do that to me.

But we are talking about the ethics (not the rules although we have established that different judges will interpret some of them differently. In multiple threads across the forum, we have discussed that they could be better worded and that there are situations that arise that are not always perfectly covered)of the specific outlined situation of a person going into a tournament with the game plan of rigging the system to win it rather than being the best player or winning games.We have seen that aardvark feels that it is perfectly ethical and that no one has a right to a differing opinion. This just tells me to never bother going to an x wing event to play in a tourney because he would ban me from participating without ever getting to even take my models out of the case because I disagreed with him on this topic of ethics.

Edited by EVIL INC

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

The judge in the picture is not even watching the game.

If you watch the video, as I posted, you will see THAT judge never leaves the table.  He goes back and sits down right in front of it.  The reason I screenshot that moment of the video is so you can see his face.  The game is setting up and he is talking to FFG staff to prep the final table for play, stream and judge.  

Also never claimed he worked every game ever.  You challenged his credentials and he showed his hand, which at this point is a straight royal flush, and you dismissed his claim.  I am now proving his claim of being a WORLD renowned judge and you are trying to claim he doesn't rule all the games.  He doesn't rule all the games, but his opinion and experience helped write the game you play.

Before you claim victim and say, "so I can't have an opinion?" You 100% can and can post what ever you want.  I just am clearing up the issue of his credentials, which I have confirmed. There are judges that will disagree with his ruling, but you can bet Killerardvark and other judges of his fame have the ears of those judges as well.  He never said you don't have a right to an opinion, just that he was a highly appointed judge and while speaking with his group of other judges this is what they mostly agree.

 

Have you ever been to a tournament?  Cause this doesn't happen and he never said any such claim?

Quote:  This just tells me to never bother going to an x wing event to play in a tourney because he would ban me from participating without ever getting to even take my models out of the case because I disagreed with him on this topic of ethics.

 

Also I have no idea what your job, that is controlled by actual laws, has to do with a table top game.  You are comparing an act that can result in jail time to a board game that has no where near the same severity.  

Quote: sanitarian, I would never go into a different county and step on the toes of theones in the other county and tell them how they should write their reports and I certainly would not allow onefrom another county to come into mine and do that to me.

Edited by Patrick_patrick

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Actually, he made the claim that his word goes in all situations. This means that he feels that he is the one and only judge denying any other judge the right to rule in any other way than the one he dictates. Also, not once did i challenge his credentials. I asked that he provided them. There is a HUGE difference.

He is the one saying that no one has the right to an opinion on the ethics of a situation. We have gone many pages on that. tournaments. I have been to a multitude of them over the last 30 years. of course, those were GW ones for 40k. I am new to this particular game and am new enough and rural as well as poor enough that I have not gotten to play in any x wing ones.

The act of judging is a position.A position that is held by different folks. a tourney in one event may have 3 judges while a like event in a different area might have 3 different judges. the position is the same, just different people in the position. A person who is a judge in one event is likely a player or an observer in a different one instead of judge. That judge would (or at least should) have no official (or legal) say in the event that he is not actually acting as a judge. Like in the job I held. I was the inspector (sanitarian is a fancy work for health inspector) in one county. A sanitarian would have been stepping on my toes had they come into my county and tried to hold inspections. Just as aardvark is by telling judges in events that he is not actually working at as a judge that they have to go by his ruling and that they do not have the right to rule differently.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

Actually, he made the claim that his word goes in all situations. This means that he feels that he is the one and only judge denying any other judge the right to rule in any other way than the one he dictates. Also, not once did i challenge his credentials. I asked that he provided them. There is a HUGE difference.

He is the one saying that no one has the right to an opinion on the ethics of a situation. We have gone many pages on that. tournaments. I have been to a multitude of them over the last 30 years. of course, those were GW ones for 40k. I am new to this particular game and am new enough and rural as well as poor enough that I have not gotten to play in any x wing ones.

The act of judging is a position.A position that is held by different folks. a tourney in one event may have 3 judges while a like event in a different area might have 3 different judges. the position is the same, just different people in the position. A person who is a judge in one event is likely a player or an observer in a different one instead of judge. That judge would (or at least should) have no official (or legal) say in the event that he is not actually acting as a judge. Like in the job I held. I was the inspector (sanitarian is a fancy work for health inspector) in one county. A sanitarian would have been stepping on my toes had they come into my county and tried to hold inspections. Just as aardvark is by telling judges in events that he is not actually working at as a judge that they have to go by his ruling and that they do not have the right to rule differently.

Nope.  I read what he said, and here it is:

Also confirmed it's ok by Michael Jures (North American Championship 2x judge and marshal this year, upcoming worlds judge, System open judge 3x), Iain Hamp (Marshalled more system opens that I can count, worlds judge 3x), and Brent Wong (Worlds judge 4x i think, System open marshall and judge multiple times, North American Championship multiple times, etc.)

I now challenge you to go to any tournament above a Hyperspace Trial and try to call a judge on someone doing this. There's a decent chance you'll get one of these people and be disappointed.

 

HE never made such a claim, he challenged you to go find a judge to rule in your favor.  This is him using multiple judges as example of how they would rule, and this is for other countries as well.  Clearly you are not reading these post fully or carefully enough.  You have been shown his credentials, he has shown top judges around the world who rule as he claims, and he asked you to go find a judge that rules as you do.  Please copy and paste him saying you don't have the right to an opinion cause it isn't in here.  

 

And again, this has nothing to do with anything.  Cause then I will say as an IT professional I have gone to other departments and stepped on their toes to show them how they are wrong.  They were corrected and all was well:

Like in the job I held. I was the inspector (sanitarian is a fancy work for health inspector) in one county. A sanitarian would have been stepping on my toes had they come into my county and tried to hold inspections. Just as aardvark is by telling judges in events that he is not actually working at as a judge that they have to go by his ruling and that they do not have the right to rule differently.

Edited by Patrick_patrick

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The original picture you posted showed 2 guys playing at one table while a blueshirt and other guy were looking o the right, presumably at something to the right that was out of the frame. this picture looks like a freezeframe from one of the games i watched on youtube. (I recognize the lil guy in the picture as being the winner of that game with a couple IG88 type ships. Nice picture of an event. Not sure how it relates. if that is from the same game I saw, judges were called to observe movements or LOS or something like that. It has been a while since i watched it. I dont remember the ethics of the game being called into question. I believe that both players were trying to win and the results recorded were as they actually played out. Not knowing the players, I was cheering for the kid and was glad he won.

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I stated that I felt that this was unethical. I also stated that my view on the rule hinged on the terms "intent" and collusion. his opinion on the collusion aspect being that you have to have a documented written contract for it to be so. My view being that you can make an unspoken offer and have it accepted. My view on intent was that the game designers and developers of the tourney circuit did not intend for it to be manipulated in this manner (after all, what happens if BOTH players want to take the loss to get an easy win at the end and turn in their sheets saying that they lost and the other guy won?) His view being that this was intended to be part of the game and tournaments, that players SHOULD do this. His view was that his word was law and judges did not have the right to say anything else while my view was that the TO and judges of an event should be the ones who make the rulings for that event. His view that players should do this, screw anyone else while my view was that if a player intended to do this, that they would be best off discussing the ploy with the judges before the event starts to save themselves from possible future penalties in case those judges should decide against it.

Side note though performing an inspection of a food establishment or a tattoo/piercing shop, well/septic system, setting up of disaster shelters or any number of other sanitarian duties is just slightly different from the duties of an IT specialist. Computers are more black and white. it either turns on or it doesnt. judging an event and doing an inspection are not so black and white and for them, you need to look at intents and situations and reasons.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

The original picture you posted showed 2 guys playing at one table while a blueshirt and other guy were looking o the right, presumably at something to the right that was out of the frame. this picture looks like a freezeframe from one of the games i watched on youtube. (I recognize the lil guy in the picture as being the winner of that game with a couple IG88 type ships. Nice picture of an event. Not sure how it relates. if that is from the same game I saw, judges were called to observe movements or LOS or something like that. It has been a while since i watched it. I dont remember the ethics of the game being called into question. I believe that both players were trying to win and the results recorded were as they actually played out. Not knowing the players, I was cheering for the kid and was glad he won.

So after two links, two pictures and informing you of who he is, do you now admit he is who he claims?  That is the point I am making.  I also am defending him against your claim that he said you cannot have an opinion.  All other debate is not relevant.  I do not care what your ethical dilemma is with X-Wing, but his reputation and the information he provided to you on how a majority of judges rule.

 

Also you still have not quoted him in writing of him telling you, you can't have an opinion.  I have made my case.

Edited by Patrick_patrick

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24 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

Side note though performing an inspection of a food establishment or a tattoo/piercing shop, well/septic system, setting up of disaster shelters or any number of other sanitarian duties is just slightly different from the duties of an IT specialist. Computers are more black and white. it either turns on or it doesnt. judging an event and doing an inspection are not so black and white and for them, you need to look at intents and situations and reasons.

I now know you are trolling.  Have a good day and good luck with your ethical issues.  

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On 8/7/2019 at 4:37 PM, Gilarius said:

Here's a similar situation in terms of ethics, just not affecting any possible cut (because there wasn't one), but did manipulate the scoring system and final standings in an event.

Small, 3 round event. I won my first game, then got paired down to face my son (age 10 at the time).

I flew a fully healthy Y-wing off the table on purpose and then fudged a dice roll so my Wedge failed to kill his Vader. This gave him a victory which he was very pleased about, and encouraged him to attend more events rather than feeling discouraged about his flying.

Someone else finished last instead of him. I finished lower than I might have, facing a weaker player in round 3 than I 'should' have played.

Was that ethical?

I think as a parent it’s important to track your kids how to win and lose equally, it’s easy as **** to comment when it’s not your child. It could even become part of his fun banter that time he beat dad. 

Its a difficult line though, I mean you shouldn’t be slam dunking in his face, but how do you encourage kids to be play competitive games? For you, you let him taste victory, which is cool too. 

Mat every tournament you are going to get bad and good draws, some people are just going to have a harder slog than most, but as you said, it probably was unethical, but in the scheme of things, it didn’t cost someone a top finish, didn’t cost prizes. I think I would have been cool with this. 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

LOL. I called you out for your trolling pages ago. I've just been feeding to see how long it would be before you got tired of trolling and gave up trying to irritate me. Better luck with the next target. :)

 

we are one page.  I don't think you are paying attention or have me confused with someone else.  but you have been proven wrong and that is all that matters.  calling me a troll is funny since I literally had to show you a well known judge and exposed you for playing a victim.  I would not be classified as a troll but actually informing you of facts.  

 

Edit:  also you never used the word troll in any of the posts between you and I.  Proven wrong again.  Man it hurts to be this good.

Edited by Patrick_patrick

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42 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

LOL. I called you out for your trolling pages ago. I've just been feeding to see how long it would be before you got tired of trolling and gave up trying to irritate me. Better luck with the next target. :)

 

For a self proclaimed old person, you sure do come of as immature. 

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20 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

For a self proclaimed old person, you sure do come of as immature. 

In my experience, older people who believe they've learned enough become obstinate. The most immature thing one can do is believe they've nothing left to learn- so they believe they know everything (they need to).

Truth is, one never does. There's always more to learn. So this obstinate nature is born out of stubbornness. An unwillingness to adapt.

That is why so many older people are so grievously immature. Because they believe they are done maturing. Nothing could be further from the truth.

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1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

In my experience, older people who believe they've learned enough become obstinate. The most immature thing one can do is believe they've nothing left to learn- so they believe they know everything (they need to).

Truth is, one never does. There's always more to learn. So this obstinate nature is born out of stubbornness. An unwillingness to adapt.

That is why so many older people are so grievously immature. Because they believe they are done maturing. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm reminded of a quote:

“Even in this world, of course, it is the stupidest children who are most childish and the stupidest grown-ups who are most grown-up.”
-C.S. Lewis, The Silver Chair

 

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