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Crimsonwarlock

Ethics Question: Concessions

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8 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

His name's EVIL INC and you guys aren't picking up on the fact he's taking you all for a ride. Just stop talking to him.

Indeed.  It's always a bad idea to try to mess with trolls.

 

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Yes, I am seeing a few trolls here. I am glad i have never stooped that behavior. Even if I did, i would not do it to someone merely because they had an opinion about the ethics of a situation as you guys are doing.

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1 hour ago, EVIL INC said:

Yes, I am seeing a few trolls here. I am glad i have never stooped that behavior. Even if I did, i would not do it to someone merely because they had an opinion about the ethics of a situation as you guys are doing.

I guess I'm rather confused as to what you want.  Any time someone disagrees with you, you rant about how they're trying to suppress your opinions (regardless of whether they are opinions or factual claims).  And any time someone doesn't address one of your posts, specifically, you rant about how people are getting off-topic, despite their posts being somewhat related, even if tangentially. 

But hey, at least you're not resorting to trollish behavior!

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Posted (edited)

Indeed i am not. i put forth my opinion and have accepted throughout that others have different ones and disagree because they have ones of their own. Then a few others rant about how I am wrong.hounding me across the forum even into other threads taunting and trolling trying to instigate drama. if you have a different opinion, fine, state it and accept that mine does not align with yours. You dont see me going across the forum hounding and harassing. THAT is trollish behavior and that behavior sens a very clear message, that you do not have the right to disagree or have your own opinion or they will continue the treatment until you fall in line and agree with them.

Your, comment about not addressing my posts is WAY off the mark. The OP put forth a VERY specif instance. I said that in that very specific instance I feel it would be unethical. Then they started putting forth different situations that the OP was not asking about and projected assuming that I thought that they were also unethical. News flash, if you scroll up or go back a few pages, you will see that I agree with them in on many of those instances because the situations in them are different. Those posts of mine are ignored and they project and continue the harassment as though I think those othersituations are un ethical as well.

This is something you see in forums across the internet. A very vocal group of friends get used to running things because they are used to posting a lot and always helping one another out as buddies. the online "good ole boys club" and swarm anyone who disagrees with them spamming them into compliance. Under normal situations I let it slide. Right now with the stress in my life, upcoming new job loss of insurance for a while, Girlfriend having had a chunk of legbone cut out and grafted into her jaw because they had to cut a section of jaw out due to cancer, my father in hospital because of heart issues that caused a stoke... I am a touch crabby and more than a little defensive.  I realize i should not have told you this because now youll dance around making fun of folks with these issues but I am being honest and giving you the reasons i am a little crabby.

 

 

Edited by EVIL INC

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

This is something you see in forums across the internet. A very vocal group of friends get used to running things because they are used to posting a lot and always helping one another out as buddies. the online "good ole boys club" and swarm anyone who disagrees with them spamming them into compliance. Under normal situations I let it slide. Right now with the stress in my life, upcoming new job loss of insurance for a while, Girlfriend having had a chunk of legbone cut out and grafted into her jaw because they had to cut a section of jaw out due to cancer, my father in hospital because of heart issues that caused a stoke... I am a touch crabby and more than a little defensive.  I realize i should not have told you this because now youll dance around making fun of folks with these issues but I am being honest and giving you the reasons i am a little crabby.

 

On a bit serious note - since you have such issues I'd advise cutting off things that don't help you deal with them or bring you happiness in these times. If these forums make you feel worse, perhaps spending time on something else would be healthier for you.

Edited by Pink_Viking
spelling

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2 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

Indeed i am not. i put forth my opinion and have accepted throughout that others have different ones and disagree because they have ones of their own. Then a few others rant about how I am wrong.hounding me across the forum even into other threads taunting and trolling trying to instigate drama. if you have a different opinion, fine, state it and accept that mine does not align with yours. You dont see me going across the forum hounding and harassing. THAT is trollish behavior and that behavior sens a very clear message, that you do not have the right to disagree or have your own opinion or they will continue the treatment until you fall in line and agree with them.

Your, comment about not addressing my posts is WAY off the mark. The OP put forth a VERY specif instance. I said that in that very specific instance I feel it would be unethical. Then they started putting forth different situations that the OP was not asking about and projected assuming that I thought that they were also unethical. News flash, if you scroll up or go back a few pages, you will see that I agree with them in on many of those instances because the situations in them are different. Those posts of mine are ignored and they project and continue the harassment as though I think those othersituations are un ethical as well.

This is something you see in forums across the internet. A very vocal group of friends get used to running things because they are used to posting a lot and always helping one another out as buddies. the online "good ole boys club" and swarm anyone who disagrees with them spamming them into compliance. Under normal situations I let it slide. Right now with the stress in my life, upcoming new job loss of insurance for a while, Girlfriend having had a chunk of legbone cut out and grafted into her jaw because they had to cut a section of jaw out due to cancer, my father in hospital because of heart issues that caused a stoke... I am a touch crabby and more than a little defensive.  I realize i should not have told you this because now youll dance around making fun of folks with these issues but I am being honest and giving you the reasons i am a little crabby.

 

 

I don't post too much on this particular forum so you most certainly can't call be part of some sinister cabal of forum posters.

You spent multiple pages making factual incorrect assertions trying to couch them as your opinion. When people told you that no 2+2 does not equal 5, you accused them of trying to stifle your opinion. Accusing you of trolling in this thread is other people giving you the benefit of the doubt on your posts.

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Posted (edited)

I feel that working the system in order to win a tournament by means other than winning games or being the best player is unethical. That is an opinion. How is that factually incorrect? 

I feel that is a person goes into a tournament with that being the game plan, they should discuss it with the judges at that tourney. That is an opinion. How can that be factually incorrect?

I feel that the judges at that particular tourney should be the views or interpreter of the rules that matter or count at that individual tourney. How can that be factually incorrect?

These are the things I am being hounded about and told that I am wrong or that they are factually incorrect. ...I feel that that is essentially telling me that I do not have the right to those views or opinions (and yes, that also, is an opinion which you may or may not agree with but cannot be proven factually incorrect. Now, that may not have been your intention but that is how it came across to me so that is how I feel. It is not factually incorrect that that is the feeling or opinion your behavior gave.

 

Edited by EVIL INC
fixed a grammar mistake where I left out a few words.

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6 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Dude.  That's not even a sentence.

LOL. My degree is in teaching social studies/ history and such. Most definitely NOT grammar. You can have a field day making fun of and harassing me on that and I may even join in on that topic because in that regard, I will most definitely likely be wrong.

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On 8/15/2019 at 9:13 AM, EVIL INC said:

I'm not here to be liked. Dont care if i am or not. I simply gave my opinion on the ethics of the specific situation and the piling on started not because of aloofness but because my opinion was not popular. Your putting the cart before the horse. 

Never said he was not.

Gangsta.

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16 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

LOL. My degree is in teaching social studies/ history and such. Most definitely NOT grammar. You can have a field day making fun of and harassing me on that and I may even join in on that topic because in that regard, I will most definitely likely be wrong.

"And such."  Sounds like a rigorous credential.

Thank you for teaching me that the key aspect of ethical discourse is dismissing others while affecting a massive martyr syndrome of claiming to be dismissed.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

Indeed i am not. i put forth my opinion and have accepted throughout that others have different ones and disagree because they have ones of their own. Then a few others rant about how I am wrong.

I must be missing something, because I've just read through this entire thread and haven't seen anywhere where anyone says your opinion on this being unethical is wrong.  Everyone has agreed that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and the vast majority actually seem to agree with you.  What people seem to take issue with is your reasoning, and in particular, your interpretation (not opinion) of the rules.

When you started declaring that conceding artificially alters the results of the game, people took exception to that simply because it doesn't.  The game doesn't even have results to alter until it ends, and in the case of a concession, it doesn't end until after the player concedes.  The concession doesn't alter the results; it sets the results.

Further, you started claiming that simply signing off on the results was collusion, when it's not (people who have colluded will likely still sign off on the results, but it is not the act of signing that makes it collusion).  Signing the sheet is neither more nor less than agreeing that it records the outcome of the game.  You're not saying you think it's what the outcome should have been, merely that it's what it was.

Again, people have not been arguing against your opinion on the ethical question, but on your interpretation of the rules, as well as your insistence on calling it an "opinion" whenever you're asked to defend it.

7 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

hounding me across the forum even into other threads taunting and trolling trying to instigate drama.

Has anyone actually done this?  Of all the posts you have made since this thread began, only the one in the Organized Play Questions received a response even close to matching what you describe, and that's because your question was directly related to this topic.  While his tone may have been somewhat terse, he wasn't taunting and trolling so much as telling you not to try dragging other people into the discussion just because the people already in it don't agree with you.

7 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

Your, comment about not addressing my posts is WAY off the mark. The OP put forth a VERY specif instance. I said that in that very specific instance I feel it would be unethical. Then they started putting forth different situations that the OP was not asking about and projected assuming that I thought that they were also unethical. News flash, if you scroll up or go back a few pages, you will see that I agree with them in on many of those instances because the situations in them are different. Those posts of mine are ignored and they project and continue the harassment as though I think those othersituations are un ethical as well.

This is a gross mischaracterization of the situation.  No one was assuming you thought the other situations were unethical as well; they were raising other examples to see where the line was drawn and why.  In fact, in some cases, I suspect the people may have known you didn't find the hypothetical unethical, and were asking precisely to determine why you saw one instance as unethical and the other as not unethical.  Their reasoning was likely something like:
1.  EVIL INC finds situation X unethical for reason Y
2.  Y being true logically leads to Z also being unethical
3.  EVIL INC does not find Z to be unethical
4.  Therefore, either I am wrong about Y logically leading to Z, or EVIL INC is being inconsistent in how he applies Y
...and then they ask their hypothetical to help them determine which conclusion is correct.

My particular comment, which you object to so strongly, was made because I noticed that whenever the "off-topic" discussions were about these hypotheticals or about discussions that didn't involve you at all, you shouted at people for being off-topic and demanded they stick to the OP (even when their discussion was very closely related to the topic).  Yet when the discussion was something completely off-topic, but also something you didn't mind talking about (like painted miniatures), you had no problems joining in the off-topic discussion yourself.  It's often ok to get a little sidetracked in a conversation.  It's not ok to demand that everyone else meet a standard you yourself choose to ignore.

7 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

This is something you see in forums across the internet. A very vocal group of friends get used to running things because they are used to posting a lot and always helping one another out as buddies. the online "good ole boys club" and swarm anyone who disagrees with them spamming them into compliance. Under normal situations I let it slide. Right now with the stress in my life, upcoming new job loss of insurance for a while, Girlfriend having had a chunk of legbone cut out and grafted into her jaw because they had to cut a section of jaw out due to cancer, my father in hospital because of heart issues that caused a stoke... I am a touch crabby and more than a little defensive.  I realize i should not have told you this because now youll dance around making fun of folks with these issues but I am being honest and giving you the reasons i am a little crabby.

And this is also something you see in forums across the Internet:  people seeing that they can't win an argument and deciding to play for sympathy rather than strengthening their argument or just dropping the issue.  If you want to criticize people for being off-topic, where does this fit in?  It's sad that you and your loved ones have these problems, but why bring it up in the middle of a heated discussion with perfect strangers on the Internet?  Not only is it completely irrelevant, but it also strikes me as somewhat disrespectful to use their suffering simply to try to win a silly argument on a game forum (not to mention the insult you give to your fellow players by implying that anyone who disagrees would automatically delight in the misery of others, because presumably anyone who doesn't see eye-to-eye with you must be a completely sadistic psychopath).

I'm quite certain most of this post will be outright ignored in favor of simply accusing me of trolling, but hopefully it'll benefit someone, at least.  Maybe bring latecomers up to speed or something.

Edited by JJ48

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Re read. The only things contended are opinion based.

1. I believe that the specific topic in question, playing the system instead of the game. Not by being the best player or by winning games is unethical. That is an opinion. 

2. I believe that if someone plans to do this, they should discuss it with the TO of the specific event beforehand to see if they approve of it and will allow it. That is an opinion.

3. I believe that the TO and judges of that event should should be the views and calls on it that matter. That is an opinion.

These are the only things in question. But if you want to talk about interpretation of the rules now. We can do that even though it is off topic and not what we are talking about at all. At a tournament, the interpretation of the rules that matter of the interpretation of the TO and judges of the event. How I interpret them and how you do, does not matter at the event (unless you or I are the judges at that event. I dont call my interpretation opinions, I differentiate between the two and have not tried to defend my interpretation. I may be right, I may be wrong, doesnt matter at the event because it is not my interpretation that allows or disqualifies someone ...Look above. Thats why I have opinion #2 and 3 above.  To be perfectly honest, even at the event no one would likely know unless they were watching closely or someone blabs so most likely it would be a none-issue that would only be known by the two players in question. I dont recall shouting at anyone when they came up. I'm pretty sure I dont even talk while I am typing. You have a recording? I'm pretty sure it is illegal to bug someones house in that way. I dont even mind the threead antting off topic. If you look, I mentioned other things. The only time, I mention anything being off topic is when a different situation is brought up where most (including myself) think it would be ethical and when I agree to THAT situation I'm told Im proven wrong. You can have different opinions about different situations under the same umbrella. Yeah, I know my grammar is not the best in any way and explaining myself isnot always my best ability.

 

Hounding across the forums... Yes. I reported a post in a different thread. I refer you to the organized play sub-forum. Although hounding in a single thread of bad enough.

The OP mentioned a very specific situation and there have been other different situations brought up to distract away from the one in question. one made a detailed land numbered list. I even went through them bynumber. Many I said I found ethical and others unethical. 

 

No one is looking for sympathy. This is the exact reason I knew I should not have explained why I was crabby.Someone like you would make fun of the things going wrong and twist it to win an argument. The thing is. no one wins these arguments. It is an opinion based discussion so no one wins because there is no black and white answer. Heck, even if we were talking about the topic of 1+1=2 (which is a black and white answer that has a definite answer. there would be no winner after 10 pages because there would be hard feelings and animosity and defensiveness where we would see and expect looking for the worst of one another instead of the best. This is why we are still posting. We have all lost even though the topic was finished on page one. We would all be better off if mods just deleted the thread. Otherwise we will just keep posting and adding till the cows come home.

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5 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

Heck, even if we were talking about the topic of 1+1=2 (which is a black and white answer that has a definite answer...

Sorry, but the engineer in me feels the need to point out that 1+1=2 does need to be qualified to be true, as it can be false in some cases.  For instance, in binary there's no such thing as 2, so 1+1=10.

As for the rest of your post, I've said all I need to.  Others may read through the topic and judge for themselves whether they feel my assessment is accurate.

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26 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

G U Y S

Look, I'm sorry.  I try to be a patient man.  I can handle the insults, the double standards, the utter disregard for logic, and even the blatant misrepresentation and falsification of previous events; but I draw the line at making assumptions in math without properly listing said assumptions!  Everyone has their breaking point, and that just happens to be mine.

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1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Look, I'm sorry.  I try to be a patient man.  I can handle the insults, the double standards, the utter disregard for logic, and even the blatant misrepresentation and falsification of previous events; but I draw the line at making assumptions in math without properly listing said assumptions!  Everyone has their breaking point, and that just happens to be mine.

Oh so he is a Trump supporter. Makes sense. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Sorry, but the engineer in me feels the need to point out that 1+1=2 does need to be qualified to be true, as it can be false in some cases.  For instance, in binary there's no such thing as 2, so 1+1=10.

But then semantically '2' in base-10 and '10' in base-2 are conceptually the same thing. Which just proves that engineers are far less useful than philosophers.

😇

Edited by __underscore__

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