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plebeianmaw

Martial Law

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When a card says, for example, 'When [this card] comes into play, attach it to X'    Kneel X', does that imply that the kneel effect is passive and constantly 'going off' keeping X knelt?  Or does X stand and the effect no longer apply after the standing phase?  Martial Law is an example of this effect.

 

Speaking of Martial Law, when an attachment is knelt, does the thing it's attached to kneel?  Do a things attachments kneel when that thing is knelt?

I don't see this being the case because cards like 'Wildling Mead' Wouldn't make any sense, but I wanted to make sure.  Thanks!

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anavasoothed said:

When a card says, for example, 'When [this card] comes into play, attach it to X'    Kneel X', does that imply that the kneel effect is passive and constantly 'going off' keeping X knelt?  Or does X stand and the effect no longer apply after the standing phase?  Martial Law is an example of this effect.

"Kneel X" only initiates when the card is played. It does not constantly cause the card to kneel any time it stands through another card effect or the Standing phase.

anavasoothed said:

Speaking of Martial Law, when an attachment is knelt, does the thing it's attached to kneel?  Do a things attachments kneel when that thing is knelt?

Attachments and whatever they are attached to kneel and stand independently of each other. When a character kneels to attack, for example, all the attachments on it do not kneel.

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So Tyrion's Chain doesn't "lockdown kneel" the opponent's locations unless the opponent wins a military?  It's only a one time effect?

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Whoever played the attachment controls it; regardless of who owns the character/location/ that an attachment is played on, the person who played the attachment retains control of it and has the ability to activate the printed text on the card.  
So if you played Martial Law on an opponent's location, you would then kneel the location (it would stand during the standing phase) and you would be able to kneel Martial Law for the extra power on any turn where you have fufilled the requirements.

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Mathias Fricot said:

You can use tyrion's chain to lock down an opponent if  you put it on the right location.
Well, "lock down" in the sense that they will not want to ever use the location, not "lock down" in the sense that is stays kneeling until the attachment is discarded.

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I mean "lock down" as in "kneeling all their locations." If you are putting it on Bay of Ice or Kingdom of Shadows, specifically. Bay of Ice always kneels when initiative is determined, and would cause all of the opponent's locations to kneel until they manage to win a military challenge and discard the chain. 

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Mathias Fricot said:

I mean "lock down" as in "kneeling all their locations." If you are putting it on Bay of Ice or Kingdom of Shadows, specifically. Bay of Ice always kneels when initiative is determined, and would cause all of the opponent's locations to kneel until they manage to win a military challenge and discard the chain. 
True, but if I have another way to stand them, I can (or in the case of Kingdom of Shadows, kneel them before someone wins an intrigue challenge). The "lock down" is of the "a kneel effect that keeps finding new ways to trigger" variety rather than the "never finding a way to stand" variety. That's all I was trying to say.

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ktom said:

Mathias Fricot said:

I mean "lock down" as in "kneeling all their locations." If you are putting it on Bay of Ice or Kingdom of Shadows, specifically. Bay of Ice always kneels when initiative is determined, and would cause all of the opponent's locations to kneel until they manage to win a military challenge and discard the chain. 

True, but if I have another way to stand them, I can (or in the case of Kingdom of Shadows, kneel them before someone wins an intrigue challenge). The "lock down" is of the "a kneel effect that keeps finding new ways to trigger" variety rather than the "never finding a way to stand" variety. That's all I was trying to say.

 

Ooookay. Not what you meant by lock down. I do have a question though; why would finding a way to kneel Kingdom of Shadows sooner help your position in any way? If it kneels with the chain attached then all your other locations would kneel with it. The same thing with Bay of Ice; it doesn't matter if you stand it after it has knelt, all the other locations would still be knelt. Unless I am missing something huge.

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Mathias Fricot said:

Ooookay. Not what you meant by lock down. I do have a question though; why would finding a way to kneel Kingdom of Shadows sooner help your position in any way? If it kneels with the chain attached then all your other locations would kneel with it. The same thing with Bay of Ice; it doesn't matter if you stand it after it has knelt, all the other locations would still be knelt. Unless I am missing something huge.
Sorry. "Lock-down" means different things to different people in different contexts. I tend to think of "lock-down" in absolute terms - so to me, "locking down" a location would usually mean that it never stands, or at least not in any meaningful way. 

You're absolutely correct in how all this works. I'm thinking more in terms of practical utility. The Chain of Bay of Ice is good because it kneels in the Plot phase, kneeling everything else out. A very good play (because if I want to use my "kneel to..." locations, I have to find a way to stand them first). Putting the Chain on Kingdom of Shadows has a little less practical utility in my view because it will usually not kneel before the Challenge phase. By that time, I have probably used my "kneel to..." reducing locations and probably a bunch of the "kneel to..." Challenge effect locations (especially if I am First Player and decide to do my intrigue challenge last). It's still a good play for blocking Dominance actions, late-phase effects with influence costs and other post-Challenge.pre-Standing effects, but it would obviously be a second choice over Bay of Ice. Putting the Chain on a location that has a passive kneeling effect is a good plan, but because of when that location is likely to kneel (passively), some choices are stronger than others.

That's all I was thinking. And I'm sure there is nothing there you hadn't already thought of.

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I was actually playing around a lannister deck using the chains with Theon Greyjoy to kneel all their locations. I'm finding things like Scouting Vessel, Lost Oasis, and company to be getting rather annoying to be on the losing end of.

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Sounds like a good plan. Kneeling out all the Challenge phase locations in the Marshaling phase is a pretty sweet move.

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Just a quick question.  The ability on Martial Law says: 

 

Attach to opponent's location.

Kneel that location.

Response.. blah blah blah.

 

My question is, what is it about "kneel that location" that doesn't make it reassert itself any time the location is standing?

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Look at the question the other way around ... there is nothing in the card text to indicate that the kneel should happen any other time than when Marshall Law is attached

 

The text is standard - so I will use Pyromancers Cache

 

Attach to a location you control. Kneel that location.

Marshalling: Kneel Pyromancer's Cache to draw a card (2 cards if you control a King or Queen character).
 

The Attach and Kneel actions are one time actions (and the kneel is mandatory, but you can attach to a location that is already kneeling)

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To put that in somewhat more technical terms:

 

"Kneel" is an active verb, a command. It is not a continuous verb that describes a constant state of being. Therefore, the "kneel that location" text cannot be a continuous effect. It has to be triggered or passive.

 

Well, triggered or passive effects need some sort of timing information to let you know when they initiate. "Kneel that location" tells you nothing about when that text should initiate, so while it must initiate when it first becomes active (i.e., when the attachment is first played), there is nothing telling you to initiate the effect again (and again, and again) each time the location stands. 

 

So, long story short, it's an active/command verb without any play restrictions telling you when it will be initiated. As such, it cannot reassert itself just because the location is standing.

 

 

And, just for fun, to put it in practical terms:

 

Let's say "Kneel that location" is a continuous effect that reasserts itself every time the location stands. That means any "kneel that card" effect without a duration should also reassert itself every time the card stands, right? So, since something like You Killed the Wrong Dwarf (Any Phase: Choose and kneel a non-NOBLE character) doesn't say "until the end of the phase" or "until the next standing phase," the event should continually reassert itself for the rest of the game. Since this is clearly not the case, the "kneel that location" text should not be able to reassert itself, either.

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To put that in somewhat more technical terms:

 

"Kneel" is an active verb, a command. It is not a continuous verb that describes a constant state of being. Therefore, the "kneel that location" text cannot be a continuous effect. It has to be triggered or passive.

 

Well, triggered or passive effects need some sort of timing information to let you know when they initiate. "Kneel that location" tells you nothing about when that text should initiate, so while it must initiate when it first becomes active (i.e., when the attachment is first played), there is nothing telling you to initiate the effect again (and again, and again) each time the location stands. 

 

So, long story short, it's an active/command verb without any play restrictions telling you when it will be initiated. As such, it cannot reassert itself just because the location is standing.

 

 

And, just for fun, to put it in practical terms:

 

Let's say "Kneel that location" is a continuous effect that reasserts itself every time the location stands. That means any "kneel that card" effect without a duration should also reassert itself every time the card stands, right? So, since something like You Killed the Wrong Dwarf (Any Phase: Choose and kneel a non-NOBLE character) doesn't say "until the end of the phase" or "until the next standing phase," the event should continually reassert itself for the rest of the game. Since this is clearly not the case, the "kneel that location" text should not be able to reassert itself, either.

 

I appreciate the detailed response however I do not believe the discussion is completely over, there's still a bit of mystery to this card and it is an attachment after all, and attachments tend to have persisting effects until dealt with.

 

"Dwarf" is an event that is discarded from play after use, and although I completely agreed with you previously on the meaning of this card (a one-time kneel that is quickly invalidated) My opinion has changed for the following reasons:

 

The card states:

"Attach to an opponent's location. 

Kneel that location."

It doesn't say "Choose and kneel a location" as most response cards do, it is two separate commands and each command is in its own separate sentence, which implies that each command is not in relation to one another other than the fact that they are both taking place on the same attached card.

#1) Attach to an opponent's location. Do this so the attachment has a card in play that it is legally attached to and is discarded along with that card.

#2) Kneel that location. Not "Response: When attached to an opponents location, kneel that location." It is a non-bold general rule. 

 

In other words: Attach to an opponent's location. Is the card still attached to the opponent's location? Then kneel that location. Standing phase? Go ahead and stand that location. However immediately after the standing action takes place all non-bold general rules are now in effect - kneel that location.

Edited by Etaywah

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 it is an attachment after all, and attachments tend to have persisting effects until dealt with.

 

So your argument is that "kneel that location" must be persistent because it is on an attachment card, even though the exact words would NOT be considered persistent on any other card type?

 

The rules say that effects do not persist beyond their point of initiation unless the text specifically says so. There is nothing in the text of "kneel that location" that tells you it persists. The verb form is wrong (compare to the verbs in actual continuous effects, like "gains"). You have to look at the text itself, not make assumptions based on the type of card the text is printed on. 

 

It doesn't say "Choose and kneel a location" as most response cards do, it is two separate commands and each command is in its own separate sentence, which implies that each command is not in relation to one another other than the fact that they are both taking place on the same attached card.

#1) Attach to an opponent's location. Do this so the attachment has a card in play that it is legally attached to and is discarded along with that card.

#2) Kneel that location. Not "Response: When attached to an opponents location, kneel that location." It is a non-bold general rule. 

 

In other words: Attach to an opponent's location. Is the card still attached to the opponent's location? Then kneel that location. Standing phase? Go ahead and stand that location. However immediately after the standing action takes place all non-bold general rules are now in effect - kneel that location.

 

Fine. Let's got with "The Lion's Will" instead. It's an event card that reads, "Any Phase: Pay 2 gold to choose a character. Kneel that character." By your argument above, two separate sentences, so two commands, unrelated effects, right? Why doesn't this one reassert itself? When you get to the standing phase, the character is still the character that was chosen. Nothing on the card says the "kneel that character" text no longer applies.

 

You can't interpret "kneel that location" on an attachment as a general rule that persists (and reasserts itself every time the location stands) without also interpreting "kneel that character" on the event as a lasting effect that persists (and reasserts itself every time the character stands). Either both are continuous/lasting effects that are "always on," or both are triggered/passive effects that stop applying after they originally resolve and require actual text to tell you when they initiate again.

 

You can't use the fact that the event has a bold trigger word and the attachment does not as a differentiation. We know that triggered effects can create lasting effects that behave the same way a "non-bold general rule" on an attachments do. So once the event activates the "Kneel that character" text, it should behave exactly the same way the "Kneel that location" text on the attachment behaves.

 

 

 

But you don't have to take my word for it. Send the question in to FFG directly for them to rule on. They've clarified it before, but it never hurts to get an update.

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So your argument is that "kneel that location" must be persistent because it is on an attachment card, even though the exact words would NOT be considered persistent on any other card type?

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

The rules say that effects do not persist beyond their point of initiation unless the text specifically says so. There is nothing in the text of "kneel that location" that tells you it persists. The verb form is wrong (compare to the verbs in actual continuous effects, like "gains"). You have to look at the text itself, not make assumptions based on the type of card the text is printed on. 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Fine. Let's got with "The Lion's Will" instead. It's an event card that reads, "Any Phase: Pay 2 gold to choose a character. Kneel that character." By your argument above, two separate sentences, so two commands, unrelated effects, right? Why doesn't this one reassert itself? When you get to the standing phase, the character is still the character that was chosen. Nothing on the card says the "kneel that character" text no longer applies.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

But you don't have to take my word for it. Send the question in to FFG directly for them to rule on. They've clarified it before, but it never hurts to get an update.

 

 

 

I think we are both making valid points here personally, are you insinuating that there's no room for discussion on this card? You must at least admit that the card has left a bit to the imagination for interpretation. 

 

Back to your response - Once again you're using an event card for your example and event cards are discarded from play and forgotten immediately after they have been played, however if FFG has gone into detail about this card then that settles it. Is there a link or a conversation in a thread that can clarify?

 

"The rules say that effects do not persist beyond their point of initiation unless the text specifically says so."

 

Is this an official rule?

 

Also, calm it down a bit buddy. We're discussing text on cardboard after all.

Edited by Etaywah

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I agree that "kneel that location" needs to have a point of initiation.  It is not a constant like Winterfell offering "All Stark characters get +1 STR" or even a lasting effect.  Would I be comparing apples to oranges if I brought up Enslaved?  "Take control of attached character". 

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"The rules say that effects do not persist beyond their point of initiation unless the text specifically says so."

 

Is this an official rule?

 

Also, calm it down a bit buddy. We're discussing text on cardboard after all.

 

 

A card only does exactly what it says it does and nothing more.  This is similar to understanding how you can't trigger effects from your hand or discard pile unless a card effect tells you it can.  So you can't infer that a card does more than it's actual text says it does.

 

 

Second, this card has been out for a long time - along with other cards that have the same exact text in question - and I'm sure it has come up before.  When I did a search though this was the only thread I found discussing Martial Law - which is why I resurrected it.  Also, I didn't really read anything into ktom's response as not being calm, but that's just me.   The suggestion to go ahead and ask FFG isn't a bad one, just to get an absolute clarification on the matter.

Edited by Slothgodfather

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I agree that "kneel that location" needs to have a point of initiation.  It is not a constant like Winterfell offering "All Stark characters get +1 STR" or even a lasting effect.  Would I be comparing apples to oranges if I brought up Enslaved?  "Take control of attached character". 

 

I actually agree with you, but I'd rather flesh out the discussion then just writing off a cards potency without taking a closer look.

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I'd suggest going ahead and sending FFG the question.  They hide the "Rules Questions" link at the very very bottom of the page in grey text on a different shade of grey background.  But it is down there.  Let us know what their reply is.

Edited by Slothgodfather

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