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IG-88B text attack and escort

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 I noticed a subtle (maybe just curious) detail

From upgrades

On upgrade card effects, the term “you” refers to the ship that the upgrade is equipped to.

clearly pointing out they're card effects

From squadrons

On squadron cards, the term “you” refers to the squadron resolving the effect.

not making that clear distinction. It looks like "effects" on squadron cards which may be card effects or other kind of effects that are not necessarily card effects.

From the Golden Rule

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

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5 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I'm also not saying it doesn't need to be explicitly ruled either.

 

I feel, from a personal standpoint, that being able to shut down a very tricky, very difficult to use ability with a single easy move is...  problematic from a game effect.  I can't explicitlystate that it was intended that way, because I'm not a designer, didn't design it, and didn't write rules for it.  I'm only interpreting it from a game perspective based on the responses that have been given to other questions.

 

Effectively, if you delete all of the reminder text, everything after "Escort", then "Escort" becomes a rulebook rule of sorts, and subject to no longer being overwritten.

I mean, how's this one, as it just hit me:

If Escort and its cannot were Absolute.   Then IG88 (the first one) would not be able to ignore it explicitly.  Becaues even though he says to ignore the Escort Rule, Escort's Rule is absolute under the Golden Rule in that Interpretation.

 

 

 

 

 

Except you ignore the "cannot", so it cannot be absolute.  And he ignores the Keyword on the card treating it as though it weren't there, so the "cannot" isn't even factored in at all.

 

4 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

 I noticed a subtle (maybe just curious) detail

From upgrades

On upgrade card effects, the term “you” refers to the ship that the upgrade is equipped to.

clearly pointing out they're card effects

From squadrons

On squadron cards, the term “you” refers to the squadron resolving the effect.

not making that clear distinction. It looks like "effects" on squadron cards which may be card effects or other kind of effects that are not necessarily card effects.

From the Golden Rule

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

From the RRG under Squadron Keywords:
"Each keyword produces the following effect for that squadron:"

Since it is producing an effect, I would say that's a card effect.  I'm not sure how else you would define those.

So you have 2 card effects conflicting, and the cannot > can in this case.

Now, on the subject of being thematic to him firing wildly at all targets, I can understand that opinion.  However, I think that would be "must fire at all targets in distance 1" if he's firing wildly in all directions, dealing with the consequences of firing on a bunch of squads with counter (like Shara) or turning Bossk into Beastmode.

I can see where many are coming from but I think this is simply an overthinking of the card text, order of operations and just wanting it to be different because lore.

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8 hours ago, Mog1255 said:

.

 

From the RRG under Squadron Keywords:
"Each keyword produces the following effect for that squadron:"

Since it is producing an effect, I would say that's a card effect.  I'm not sure how else you would define those.

 

That doesn't make it a card effect necessarily. A keyword may be just a way to say "this squadron works under this specific set of rules in the RRG"

Think on upgrade cards that gives keywords to ships. The card effect is to give something (let's say counter), what they gives (counter) is a squadron keyword which is a rule from the RRG

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6 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

That doesn't make it a card effect necessarily. A keyword may be just a way to say "this squadron works under this specific set of rules in the RRG"

Think on upgrade cards that gives keywords to ships. The card effect is to give something (let's say counter), what they gives (counter) is a squadron keyword which is a rule from the RRG

Thats a stretch and Im just not buying that.  It states it is an effect, not that "this squad works this way".

 

Way too much over thinking going on.

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25 minutes ago, Mog1255 said:

Thats a stretch and Im just not buying that.  It states it is an effect, not that "this squad works this way".

 

Way too much over thinking going on.

I still say that doesn't make it a card effect. As best you can say it is keyword effect.

The rulebook says that the keyword provide the effect for that squadron but the effect comes from the RRG. It is reasonable to say that keywords just serve as a reference to know which RRG rules apply to that specific squadron.

I am not saying that is how it is, just that I see how it may be. As it happens with other things like defense tokens.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Karneck said:

Escort is very clear, if you are engaged with escort, you shoot escort.

If you’re engaged with escort, you cannot shoot other squadrons.  There’s a difference.

When attacking normally, escort wouldn’t move attacks at all, it would simply cancel them.  The decision to hit something else is made by the player before the attack starts.  That ruling confuses me.

Edited by The Jabbawookie

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

If you’re engaged with escort, you cannot shoot other squadrons.  There’s a difference.

When attacking normally, escort wouldn’t move attacks at all, it would simply cancel them.  The decision to hit something else is made by the player before the attack starts.  That ruling confuses me.

100% this. Each attack is separate--so you're free to try and fail to declare multiple non-escorts as targets, but that doesn't give you extra attacks against escorts.

Escort doesn't say redirect attacks to the escort, it says you cannot declare non-escorts as targets. There's a legitimate discussion to be had whether IG-88B supersedes that keyword to allow you to do so; less so on whether escort is an attack prevent or a redirect.

Sorry @Karneck, I love you but this is a bad ruling.

Edited by Ardaedhel

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Well, I learned something new today, I'd never even considered or even thought about it this way before. 
Huge thanks to @Drasnighta for pointing it out and helping me to understand.


All squadron keywords on squadron cards, should be treated as reminders that they are rules as written if they were actually written in the rulebook (which some are).
Treat Squadron cards with actual text wording as an upgrade card effect that overrules squadron keywords.


As found in rules reference
"The Golden Rule
Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Rules Reference booklet. In this situation, the component’s effect takes precedence."

Meaning that IG88B's attack is a non traditional attack, which is why it can ignore "Escort". Card text trumps Rules text.
But IG88b can STILL be countered because it is still following all rules for an attack and counter works on any "non-counter" attacks.
 

 

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4 hours ago, Karneck said:

 All squadron keywords on squadron cards, should be treated as reminders that they are rules as written if they were actually written in the rulebook

If squadron keywords are intended to be categorically excluded as "card effects", that definitely needs to be erratad in with the next FAQ, because there is just no textual basis for the claim that the text on a card ceases to count as text on that card if it also appears in the RRG (or supplements).

I get the logic, but I disagree with it. It's an internally inconsistent application of the rules and opens the door for abuse. Just off the top of my head: command icon headers, crit symbols on alternate crit effects, and upgrade card symbols are all defined in the RRG but used on cards. Are those not card effects, either?

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

If squadron keywords are intended to be categorically excluded as "card effects", that definitely needs to be erratad in with the next FAQ, because there is just no textual basis for the claim that the text on a card ceases to count as text on that card if it also appears in the RRG (or supplements).

I get the logic, but I disagree with it. It's an internally inconsistent application of the rules and opens the door for abuse. Just off the top of my head: command icon headers, crit symbols on alternate crit effects, and upgrade card symbols are all defined in the RRG but used on cards. Are those not card effects, either?

They are on the cards, but they are on upgrade cards, which by their nature modify or change whatever meaning or ruling that is written in the RRG.

"The Golden Rule
Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Rules Reference booklet. In this situation, the component’s effect takes precedence."
 


Example, Engine Techs, in order to activate that card component, a navigation command needs to resolve, and when it is resolved, this card effect is able to grant an additional ability otherwise not stated in the RRG.

Edited by Karneck

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1 minute ago, Karneck said:

They are on the cards, but they are on upgrade cards, which by their nature modify whatever meaning or ruling that is written in the RRG.

"The Golden Rule
Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Rules Reference booklet. In this situation, the component’s effect takes precedence."

In exactly the same way keywords do on squadrons.

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Posted (edited)

Please point out to me where a squadron keyword is changing or modifying any effect in the RRG rulebook
Wrong way to phrase that let me rethink on it, I understand "engagement" is largely where squadron keywords are based around, "intel", "Heavy", and "Escort".
They way I would look at it, just as when ships are released, they are released with an RRG book along with them, this is considered added to the RRG for rules as written on how to play them.
Squadrons release with no such booklet (that I can think of), however it can be considered that these keywords are being added to the RRG as if they had come with a booklet.

But another question
where can any "abuse" happen?

Edited by Karneck

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2 minutes ago, Karneck said:

Please point out to me where a squadron keyword is changing or modifying any effect in the RRG rulebook

I mean... I did upthread.

 

Every squadron doesn't have Counter.  An A-wing has Counter because the A-wing card card says so.

 

The meaning of the counter keyword is explained in the RRG.

The fact that a given squadron has it is conferred by its card.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Karneck said:

 

But another question
where can any "abuse" happen?

He pointed out upgrade cards with command icons. Those command icons are explained on the RRG so if they're not card effects they can't overwrite other card effects.

My claim on it is that they (the icons) may not be card effects. They're actually just timings. And timings don't produce that kind of interaction problems. The rest of the card it is definitely a card effect.

 

I acknowledge that it is not the clearest explanation and that it may aoi weak. But I also think it doesn't break anything. To me is as "easy" as thinking this way:

You provide ships with upgrades. Upgrades provide effects.

You provide ships with tokens. Tokens provide effects.

You provide squadrons with keywords. Keywords provide effects.

Those effects may or not be on the RRG. If they're not, where are they? If on the card, then card effects.

 

But definitely it is something that needs clarification.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I acknowledge that it is not the clearest explanation and that it may aoi weak. But I also think it doesn't break anything. To me is as "easy" as thinking this way:

You provide ships with upgrades. Upgrades provide effects.

You provide ships with tokens. Tokens provide effects.

You provide squadrons with keywords. Keywords provide effects.

Those effects may or not be on the RRG. If they're not, where are they? If on the card, then card effects.

 

But definitely it is something that needs clarification.

Unfortunately, it's not our job to decide what's easy or doesn't break things.  We work to stay not just consistent with the rules, but to do so while avoiding unfounded assumptions.

Which is why I absolutely agree that this needs clarification, and that hopefully squadron keywords are excluded as card effects.  But it's not something we know, and we really shouldn't assume it based on convenience.

Edited by The Jabbawookie

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Perhaps the important information is the word "anti-squadron attack", which is what ships do. Ships ignore Escort.  "anti-squadron" is only mentioned in the rules when ships are attacking squads.

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So for me it's absolut thematical that IG88B shots in every direction with the cost of being obstructed and ignoring "Escort". He is not in a close dogfight with the escort fighter that prevents him from attacking, he is just shooting around. The "anti-squadron attack" wording seems to fit in well. Ships attack with an "anti-squadron attack"every target in fire range and arc. IG88B attacks with an "anti-squadron attack" every enemy squadron at distance 1.

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On 8/22/2019 at 6:23 AM, spike2109 said:

Perhaps the important information is the word "anti-squadron attack", which is what ships do. Ships ignore Escort.  "anti-squadron" is only mentioned in the rules when ships are attacking squads.

Ships do not ignore Escort because that wording grants them an exception.  Ships ignore Escort because 1. Escort explicitly affects squadrons, and 2. ships don’t “engage” with squadrons.  If they did, and Escort wasn’t specific, it would trump any base rule for ships and prevent them from attacking other squadrons, as either a card effect trumping a base rule or a “cannot” base rule trumping another base rule.

It’s similar wording, but not applicable.  That said, this is a fresh approach.  Let’s look at the next two most similar wordings in the game: Jendon (a squadron may “perform an attack”) and Counter (“you may attack that squadron with an anti-squadron armament of 2 blue dice.”)

Jendon can’t go through escort.

Counter can, but specifically is allowed to do so by the Escort keyword.  That said, it’s on the same “tier” as Escort, whatever that may be.

It all boils down to whether squadron keywords are card effects or not.

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