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Cav Scout

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I Just finished two frustrating games at my LGS and I admit it was my own stupid flying that lost the games. It seems keep making the same mistakes such as crashing into my own ships and presenting a nice kill box to my opponents, or flying into obstacles. I just can’t seem to grasp the tactics and strategies needed to be more successful at this game. 

It would be great if one of the streaming newt works would create a series just demonstrating  tactics and strategies maybe using games they have streamed to demonstrate good moves players should learn and how to execute them.  Just don’t talk about how this is a great move but explain how it was setup. Also, show how to prevent dumb mistakes like I mentioned above or fly against certain types of lists such as swarms.  I believe this would be a great benefit for the X-Wing community , especially newer players. 

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Just to clarify for my own understanding - when you say you struggle to grasp the tactics or strategies, do you mean the theory or the execution of it?

I ask because the theory and knowing what you want to do isn’t as hard as you may think. The wisdom of how to implement correctly is something that only comes with playing more against a variety of opponents. I am **very good** against specific opponents, but that’s more my ability to read them then a member of the public.

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Posted (edited)

What was ur squad list? Ship selection is quite key as it impacts on everything else oncludong your play style. Might be some quick fixes here as simple as llaying ships with same initiative score which gives you much greater flexibility for choosing the order of movement for your ships.

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Just to clarify for my own understanding - when you say you struggle to grasp the tactics or strategies, do you mean the theory or the execution of it?

I ask because the theory and knowing what you want to do isn’t as hard as you may think. The wisdom of how to implement correctly is something that only comes with playing more against a variety of opponents. I am **very good** against specific opponents, but that’s more my ability to read them then a member of the public.

It is the execution. I know what mistakes cause me to loose a game but for some reason I keep making the same mistakes because I can't see the result when I set my dials. Many times I try to go in different directions at different speeds and bang, they bumped each other because I could not foresee the outcome. Same with hitting rocks. Maybe I don't have the spacial awareness to play this game.

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2 minutes ago, Cav Scout said:

It is the execution. I know what mistakes cause me to loose a game but for some reason I keep making the same mistakes because I can't see the result when I set my dials. Many times I try to go in different directions at different speeds and bang, they bumped each other because I could not foresee the outcome. Same with hitting rocks. Maybe I don't have the spacial awareness to play this game.

That sort of spacial awareness is a skill developed through practice. Some people like Nathan Eide can do it naturally, but most of us need practice.

 

The usual suggestion is to set up an asteroid field and practice flying ships through it. If you wanted to add an element of flying against enemy ships, you could look up Heroes of the Atari Cluster's AI and face off against some simple imperial ships.

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2 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

What was ur squad list? Ship selection is quite key as it impacts on everything else oncludong your play style. Might be some quick fixes here as simple as llaying ships with same initiative score which gives you much greater flexibility for choosing the order of movement for your ships.

It has happened with different lists and different factions. It is not the list, it's me. I can see other players take a couple of V-19s fly them into a swarm and seemingly make them last for most of the game. I fly V-19s, ARC 170s, T-70s, T-65s, Y-Wings, etc... and boom, two to four ships gone in a turn. If I run my ships into each other or land on a rock, they are served up for my opponent to blast them to pieces. 

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19 minutes ago, Cav Scout said:

It has happened with different lists and different factions. It is not the list, it's me. I can see other players take a couple of V-19s fly them into a swarm and seemingly make them last for most of the game. I fly V-19s, ARC 170s, T-70s, T-65s, Y-Wings, etc... and boom, two to four ships gone in a turn. If I run my ships into each other or land on a rock, they are served up for my opponent to blast them to pieces. 

What @Squark said and I quoted below can help develop that ability.

19 minutes ago, Squark said:

That sort of spacial awareness is a skill developed through practice. Some people like Nathan Eide can do it naturally, but most of us need practice.

 

The usual suggestion is to set up an asteroid field and practice flying ships through it. If you wanted to add an element of flying against enemy ships, you could look up Heroes of the Atari Cluster's AI and face off against some simple imperial ships.

 

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2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

What @Squark said and I quoted below can help develop that ability.

 

Does anyone have a link to Atari Cluster's AI. All I got were some Reddit posts about it after a Google Search.

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7 minutes ago, Cav Scout said:

Does anyone have a link to Atari Cluster's AI. All I got were some Reddit posts about it after a Google Search.

Download the whole thing and then look at the AI charts provided for different ships.

http://dockingbay416.com/campaign/

based on what slice of pie you are in, roll a d6 and compare to the slice of pie you’re in + the die result. Have your enemy execute that maneuver (rule book says what to do if that would go over an obstacle)

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Posted (edited)

Here's a link to the complete HotAC document.

 

Another important skill is learning how to concentrate force. While strategies involving keeping your ships far apart can be effective, for a new player, keeping all your ships close together reduces the chances you will engage piecemail and watch 100% of your opponent's list engage 30-50% of yours. At the same time, avoiding bumping is also critical. Putting a speed 1 template between two small ships is an easy way to setup, but if you want a little more complicated formation, the pinwheel formation is good for learning swarms. This ensures the entire swarm can execute the same bank maneuver without colliding.

QjL51kh.png

 

Edited by Squark

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Practice, practice, practice... oh, and have fun. Seriously. When I started, I'd set up a board and practice a list by myself just to get the hang of what each ship can do. Once you get a BASIC idea of the distance of each maneuver, you'll start to figure out tactics. You may want to try playing with gas clouds until you get the hang of basic flying as they are VERY forgiving if you fly through them or land on them. Also, pick ships that cater to your play style and know what absolutely won't work against an opponent's list... just a for instance, I have been playing since the near end of First Edition. I NEVER encountered a swarm before 2.0 hit and when it did, a few of my store's veteran players went back to versions of TIE Swarms they played when they were viable in 1.0 and I was getting SLAUGHTERED. Why? In my head I figured my shielded X-Wings would come out on top!

They didn't. THEY DEFINITELY DID NOT.

I learned Y-Wings with bombs and ions helped break up the swarm and I learned how to flank with X-Wings and Y-Wings. Now I'm using an X-Wing, a B-Wing, and 2 A-Wings to almost the same results.

Hang in there and you'll get it.

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 if you if you think you're losing in list building or in not knowing how to face an opponents list...


 hop-on vassal, and play an opponent. If you win, keep playing that list. If you lose, play the list you lost to, until you lose again. Rinse repeat. You learn a lot about the game doing this. Losing is frustrating, but I learn more from losing than I do winning.

A lot of people who have a solid foundation in the game say pick a list learn it well and stick to it. If your new play a little bit of everything, I think helps more.

 

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4 hours ago, Cav Scout said:

It is not the list, it's me. I can see other players take a couple of V-19s fly them into a swarm and seemingly make them last for most of the game

Swarms have been around forever in this game. You’re likely seeing players who have done TIE swarms, or Z95 swarms, or any other type long before second edition was a thing. So it may not be fair to compare yourself to some players if you’re relatively new. Even if it’s a newer ship, the idea/execution of a swarm remains much the same. It takes a lot of practice.

I would advocate for you to find what minimizes the mistake you’re making and stick with a list for at least 10 games. Sure, make an adjustment here and there to upgrades but keep the core list and strategy the same. You can’t really learn a ship, or even a strategy, by jumping around before you know the basic tactics.

It sounds to me like a form of Ace play is your best best. Minimal number of ships. Usually not flown on top of one another. Gives you ability to dodge around those kill boxes.

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Just keep playing.  Seriously, either online or on the kitchen table or at your FLGS, just keep playing.  I’ve gotten way better than when I started at estimating where a maneuver will put my ship.  I still bump a ship almost every game, but I’m not really landing. in rocks anymore.  As far as strategy goes, start simple.  Just try to get one of your ships to have decent time on target then Slowly add other ships to your offensive pool.  Especially if you have multiple ship chassis that you can use, each chassis has it’s own strengths as far as contributing to your overall strategy.

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If you have diffculty judging the distance of the maneuvers, they are a few tricks that you can use.

For exemple, this old V1 guide has everything for small and large bases :

 

I use that all the time to figure out where a ship will land.

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Get on vassal, get some ships on the board by yourself, practice moving them about and checking for range. 

Have your first 3 rounds down to routine. 

Then get your mat out and do the same. 

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If you wanted something I've found helpful, the Fly Better(formerly Mynock) podcast has a series on the basics of the game - including choosing maneuvers.

Other than that, it's just practice, practice, practice

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Posted (edited)

Trying to figure out how to outmaneuver your opponent can be tricky, but I think I almost have it down to a simple, 5-step process:

1.  Think about what maneuvers you would make if you were in your opponent's position.

2.  Assume the opponent would do something else, because he's much better at choosing maneuvers than you are

3.  Be completely surprised when he chooses a third maneuver not in (1) or (2) that you didn't even know his ship could perform.

4.  ???

5.  Outmaneuver your opponent and win the game

 

If I can just figure out step 4, I'll be all set!

Edited by JJ48

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Cav Scout said:

It is the execution. I know what mistakes cause me to loose a game but for some reason I keep making the same mistakes because I can't see the result when I set my dials. Many times I try to go in different directions at different speeds and bang, they bumped each other because I could not foresee the outcome. Same with hitting rocks. Maybe I don't have the spacial awareness to play this game.

Sounds like you are overthinking the entire thing. 

I'm gonna recommend something that helped me for the first two years playing this game: SIMPLIFY.

I flew 4 ships with the same pilot skill (initiative value) for almost two years straight. 

Little or no upgrades. Almost all generics. 

Start to build your core mental framework for dials and order of movement from a place of CONTROL instead of OBLIGATION by using ships that give you that control instead of every random unique pilot and upgrade that people tell you are good. 

For some people (like me and I'm presuming you), using net lists or combos in your early days is the best recipe for frustration you can do. 

Use your valuable table time to focus on the basics until you are bored with the basics and not running into rocks or accidentally bumping on a regular basis.  

Edited by Bucknife

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Can someone share with this poor player a link to the old maneuver guides from 1st edition. 

The trick is using the base of your ship as a baseline for eyeballing maneuvers by knowing how many base-lengths each maneuver corresponds to. For example a 1 straight is 1 small base long and moves your ship's front forward 2 base-lengths, a 2-hard is the equivalent of moving 2 base-lengths forward and to the side, etc.

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On 8/4/2019 at 10:04 AM, JJ48 said:

Trying to figure out how to outmaneuver your opponent can be tricky, but I think I almost have it down to a simple, 5-step process:

1.  Think about what maneuvers you would make if you were in your opponent's position.

2.  Assume the opponent would do something else, because he's much better at choosing maneuvers than you are

3.  Be completely surprised when he chooses a third maneuver not in (1) or (2) that you didn't even know his ship could perform.

4.  ???

5.  Outmaneuver your opponent and win the game

 

If I can just figure out step 4, I'll be all set!

Opposite problem for me, is outthinking myself!

'' Ok so, my very best move is a 2 bank, i'll have plenty of choices then to boost or broll to evade every shot.''

''But my opponent is good, he'll never let me do this, so I have to assume he'll block me with this ship and shoot me on the side with this other ship! That would be terrible!''

''So instead i'll do a 4 k-turn, skip the blocker and shoot him in the back! Unexpected! How devilish!''

...later

''WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DID A 1 STRAIGHT AND BLOCKED MY kTURN! HOW!?''

If I had just stayed with my first idea, I could have evaded all shot, put a return shot with full mod, and just be merrily on my way to victory! And not just once. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

Opposite problem for me, is outthinking myself!

'' Ok so, my very best move is a 2 bank, i'll have plenty of choices then to boost or broll to evade every shot.''

''But my opponent is good, he'll never let me do this, so I have to assume he'll block me with this ship and shoot me on the side with this other ship! That would be terrible!''

''So instead i'll do a 4 k-turn, skip the blocker and shoot him in the back! Unexpected! How devilish!''

262u1p.jpg

...and that's why I always just assume that no matter what maneuver I go with, it's wrong.

(Same reason I also find it pointless to debate whether Focus or Target Lock is a better option if you don't have anything that requires one over the other.)

Edited by JJ48

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