Changing dice color before gathering dice

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

So a spoiled upgrade card looks like this:

"While attacking a squadron, before you gather dice, if defender is not engaged with a friendly squadron, you may replace all the blue anti squadron dice with red dice"

At first glance it seems it seems it allows you to shot red dice at long range while your anti squadron armament is just blue BUT:

"If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone"

This is before the Roll (and gather) Attack Dice step.

What's attack range?

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

From the RRG

Attack range is the range at which a squadron or a ship’s 
hull zone can perform an attack as determined by the 
armament it is using.
• A hull zone’s maximum attack range is close range if it 
has only black dice in its armament, medium range if it 
has at least one blue die, or long range if it has at least 
one red die.

 

So you still have to be at medium range to change those blue dice, no matter it happens before gathering the dice 

Edited August 1, 2019 by ovinomanc3r

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Incorrect.

You declare Target first.

Declare a Target at Long Range.

 

Before you gather Dice, change your Dice from Blue to Red.  You're effecting a temporary armament change, rather than a "Remove, Add" effect.

 

Oh, look.  You're now Gathering Red Dice at Long Range, and its legal. 

Dakka Dakka Dakka.

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Drasnighta

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Incorrect.

You declare Target first.

Declare a Target at Long Range.

 

Before you gather Dice, change your Dice from Blue to Red.  You're effecting a temporary armament change, rather than a "Remove, Add" effect.

 

Oh, look.  You're now Gathering Red Dice at Long Range, and its legal. 

Dakka Dakka Dakka.

 

 

 

Ok but what about the Declare Target dot?

First you declare Target and that target must be at range of the attacking hull zone.

The range of the attack hull zone is long range only if it has at least one red die on its armament. There are no red dice at this point (declaring target) so the squadron is not at range of the hull zone.

That's what I'm reading and bothers me. 

 

1. Declare Target: The attacker declares the defender and 
the attacking hull zone, if any. If the defender is a ship, 
the attacker declares the defending hull zone. Measure 
line of sight to the defender to ensure the attack is 
possible and to determine if it is obstructed.
◊ If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull 
zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc 
and at attack range of the attacking hull zone. 
◊ If the attacker is a squadron, the defending squadron 
or hull zone must be at distance 1.

 

I am just trying to understand how are we allowing that target given the rules that requires it must be at range when it is not. If the upgrade said while declaring target I would agree completely. But before gathering dice sounds after declaring target to me somehow.

Maybe I should check the FAQ it's being a long time since I deal with the rules

[Drasnighta 26,832]

4 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Ok but what about the Declare Target dot?

First you declare Target and that target must be at range of the attacking hull zone.

The range of the attack hull zone is long range only if it has at least one red die on its armament. There are no red dice at this point (declaring target) so the squadron is not at range of the hull zone.

That's what I'm reading and bothers me. 

 

1. Declare Target: The attacker declares the defender and 
the attacking hull zone, if any. If the defender is a ship, 
the attacker declares the defending hull zone. Measure 
line of sight to the defender to ensure the attack is 
possible and to determine if it is obstructed.
◊ If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull 
zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc 
and at attack range of the attacking hull zone. 
◊ If the attacker is a squadron, the defending squadron 
or hull zone must be at distance 1.

 

I am just trying to understand how are we allowing that target given the rules that requires it must be at range when it is not. If the upgrade said while declaring target I would agree completely. But before gathering dice sounds after declaring target to me somehow.

Maybe I should check the FAQ it's being a long time since I deal with the rules

Let’s break it down colloquially.

Would you have an upgrade that makes things worse ?

i mean, has no effect than to make things worse?

without a range gain, it is a costly downgrade.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Drasnighta

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Let’s break it down colloquially.

Would you have an upgrade that makes things worse ?

i mean, has no effect than to make things worse?

without a range gain, it is a costly downgrade.

 

 

Red dice have their own advantage. But whatever. That's not a point even when I agree. I just noticed that as per the rules it was never a thing of you targeting whatever and gathering 0 dice. The defender had to be at range it seems. Which is weird given the attack is cancelled when gathering 0 dice.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

8 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Red dice have their own advantage. But whatever. That's not a point even when I agree. I just noticed that as per the rules it was never a thing of you targeting whatever and gathering 0 dice. The defender had to be at range it seems. Which is weird given the attack is cancelled when gathering 0 dice.

Did you look up how you determine if something is “in range”?

Because I’m not articulating well on no sleep, but here goes again:

I believe, You lay the range ruler down - if it’s within the range ruler, it is “in range” - ie, in short, medium or long range.

You then gather dice based on the range involved. These are now reds.

Because you don’t look at dice colour until that step.

When you are gathering.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Drasnighta

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

I am reading the Declare Target step that requires the defender to be at range of the attacking hull zone  and the Attack Range section what defines what attack range is.

I am also tired and I will submit the question cause I think it "is" as you says but I just cannot see it that way no matter how times I read it.

 

I just declare a target and it must be at range of the attacking hull zone and when I read attack range I noticed that the maximum range of my hull is medium so the defender is breaking that MUST. I am trying to solve that. I not even reach the gathering dice stuff.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I am reading the Declare Target step that requires the defender to be at range of the attacking hull zone  and the Attack Range section what defines what attack range is.

I am also tired and I will submit the question cause I think it "is" as you says but I just cannot see it that way no matter how times I read it.

 

I just declare a target and it must be at range of the attacking hull zone and when I read attack range I noticed that the maximum range of my hull is medium so the defender is breaking that MUST. I am trying to solve that. I not even reach the gathering dice stuff.

Feel free.

Basically: How do you know your range is medium?

You haven’t been told to look at your dice yet.

[Mad Cat 2,250]

37 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Let’s break it down colloquially.

Would you have an upgrade that makes things worse ? 

i mean, has no effect than to make things worse?

without a range gain, it is a costly downgrade.

I'm not sure which of these interpretations is correct but if the Flakking ship has the new LTT laser it can reroll a red dice in each attack, not an exhaust and it works against squadrons.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

55 minutes ago, Mad Cat said:

I'm not sure which of these interpretations is correct but if the Flakking ship has the new LTT laser it can reroll a red dice in each attack, not an exhaust and it works against squadrons.

You'd have to be using a Liberty as they're both Turbolasers.

 

Cymoon's dont have blue to change to Red.

[hufflazon 49]

 

11 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You'd have to be using a Liberty as they're both Turbolasers.

 

Cymoon's dont have blue to change to Red.

Libertys don't either. Their flak dice are only black.

Edited August 1, 2019 by hufflazon

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Just now, hufflazon said:

 

Libertys don't either. Their flak dice are only black.

I could have sworn they had a Blue/Black Variant?

If not.  Well, hey!  Everyone's Equally Screwed in the Double Turbolaser Case!

[eliteone 643]

12 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

You'd have to be using a Liberty as they're both Turbolasers.

 

Cymoon's dont have blue to change to Red.

Edit - answered above.

Edited August 2, 2019 by eliteone

[Astrodar 594]

I'm necroing this post. Apologies if this comes across as being pedantic, but I feel like convention is over riding written rules. I'm not seeing a written rules basis for the above argument.  

"If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull zone must be inside the attacking hull zone's firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone."

By this rule, if you are a ship with only blue dice and no upgrades, you cannot declare a ship at long range as your target, because it is not in your attack range. The attack doesn't even begin, because it isn't a valid target.

If that is true, gathering attack dice never happens, so there is no "before you gather dice" timing to trigger something like HFZ.

The primary point being that there is a difference between "range" and "attack range".

On 8/1/2019 at 4:49 PM, Drasnighta said:

Basically: How do you know your range is medium?

You haven’t been told to look at your dice yet.

Your ship has a maximum attack range defined by its armament. This is defined in the RRG. You know your maximum attack range is medium if you have at least one blue dice printed, but no red dice. So when you are told that the defending squadron or hull zone must be "... at attack range..." you are told to check your armament, check range, and check that your armament allows you to select a target at that range.

 

Along these lines, Disposable Capacitors allows an all blue dice ship to target at long range, because it alters your maximum attack range by changing where blue dice are applicable. 

[Drasnighta 26,832]

If you want pedantry:

 

When does it say the attack ends?

 

 

 

... When you cannot gather dice.

 

when can you not gather dice?

 

[Astrodar 594]

31 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

If you want pedantry:

 

When does it say the attack ends?

 

 

 

... When you cannot gather dice.

 

when can you not gather dice?

 

By that same note, when does it say the attack begins? 

When you declare a target. 

What can be declared as a target?

Something in arc and at attack range. 

 

EDIT: It seems this is an issue of intent vs as written. Upon release, I'm sure we'll know more exactly how HVZ is meant to interact with the attack step.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Astrodar

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Sure, let’s go ahead and break the game. I’m done.

[Green Knight 9,746]

Every single wave.

At least one such discussion.

It's pretty simple.

Declare the attack.

Reach for your blue dice... but pick up some reds instead.

Start measuring.

Then: ROLL THEM DICE!!!

 

[RapidReload 238]

2 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Every single wave.

At least one such discussion.

It's pretty simple.

Declare the attack.

Reach for your blue dice... but pick up some reds instead.

Start measuring.

Then: ROLL THEM DICE!!!

 

That sounds fun. I'll do that with black dice next time, that sounds even more fun 🙂 .

Edited December 11, 2019 by RapidReload

[eliteone 643]

3 hours ago, RapidReload said:

That sounds fun. I'll do that with black dice next time, that sounds even more fun 🙂 .

Sato is a boss. 

[eliteone 643]

5 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Every single wave.

At least one such discussion.

It's pretty simple.

Declare the attack.

Reach for your blue dice... but pick up some reds instead.

Start measuring.

Then: ROLL THEM DICE!!!

 

Sounds pretty straight forward to me. 

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

An knteres piece from ignition attacks

During IGNITION attacks, even a ship beyond the range ruler can be chosen as the target of the attack. This is considered extreme distance.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Cool, so, raw, you can choose it as a target....  but as no dice work are gathered at extreme range, we hit the same problem as before.

 

Still convinced we need to let these things WORK rather than not 😁

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Cool, so, raw, you can choose it as a target....  but as no dice work are gathered at extreme range, we hit the same problem as before.

 

Still convinced we need to let these things WORK rather than not 😁

During a ignition attack there is a special rule for gathering dice.

 

What is interesting here is that Ignition attacks must specifically allow you to declare target beyond your attack range. 

They did that piece of rulings to not break the game as you say. They didn't for HFZ.

 

However, as I said before I'm on the boat of HFZ firing at long range, it is just that I don't see it doing it per the rules.