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A New Age of Battle - Starhawk and Onager Preview

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47 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Aftermath.

The only text that involves Agate.

Sorry, thought you were referring to the card text.  Didn't realize she was in any books.

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What do we think these new ships speeds will be.  My guess Max 2 for both

Onager

1- 1 yaw

2- 1 yaw at first joint, 0 at second

Starhawk

1- 1 yaw

2- 1 at first, 1 at second.

 

Be cool if Onager had 2 at speed one for pivots. Try to line up this long rang shots.  But may be to easy

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1 hour ago, Rune Taq said:

What do we think these new ships speeds will be.  My guess Max 2 for both

Onager

1- 1 yaw

2- 1 yaw at first joint, 0 at second

Starhawk

1- 1 yaw

2- 1 at first, 1 at second.

 

Be cool if Onager had 2 at speed one for pivots. Try to line up this long rang shots.  But may be to easy

That would give the Starhawk the same maneuver chart as the VSD. The chart that people have complained at length about how it is so bad that it makes the VSD subpar. Except Rebels don’t have a commander that magically fixed the maneuver chart without burning command dials or tokens. 

 

Thematically, Starhawks were intended to throw down with ISDs, which means they’d need to be fast enough to keep pace with their target. 

 

The only speed 2 large ship is the Home One class. The Home One class is also the only large ship that wasn’t designed from ground up to be a combat ship (ISD, MC75) or refitted with a lot of extras for combat (Liberty gained the wings in refit). Heck, the only speed 2 medium is interdictor, which also isn’t designed for heavy combat.

 

So a speed 2 Starhawk would not be thematic and would make it too passive for game mechanics. Give it a garbage maneuver chart if you want, but it should not be speed 2.

Edited by Church14

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4 minutes ago, Church14 said:

That would give the Starhawk the same maneuver chart as the VSD. The chart that people have complained at length about how it is so bad that it makes the VSD subpar. Except Rebels don’t have a commander that magically fixed the maneuver chart without burning command dials or tokens. 

 

Thematically, Starhawks were intended to throw down with ISDs, which means they’d need to be fast enough to keep pace with their target. 

 

The only speed 2 large ship is the Home One class. The Home One class is also the only large ship that wasn’t designed from ground up to be a combat ship (ISD, MC75) or refitted with a lot of extras for combat (Liberty gained the wings in refit). Heck, the only speed 2 medium is interdictor, which also isn’t designed for heavy combat.

 

So a speed 2 Starhawk would not be thematic and would make it too passive for game mechanics. Give it a garbage maneuver chart if you want, but it should not be speed 2.

 

I would be exceptionally happy with a Speed-3 Starhawk. 

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1 minute ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

You're forgetting the ship you mentioned in your first paragraph, the mighty VSD.

Fair point. The VSD was a tired old workhorse. Something something never got properly refit for newer conflict. 

Edited by Church14

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4 hours ago, Church14 said:

That would give the Starhawk the same maneuver chart as the VSD. The chart that people have complained at length about how it is so bad that it makes the VSD subpar. 

The VSD at speed 2 has 0 clicks at the first and 1 at the second. Not one at each. That seems small but is actually a big difference. 1 click at each joint at speed 2 isn't nearly as bad.

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11 hours ago, Church14 said:

Fair point. The VSD was a tired old workhorse. Something something never got properly refit for newer conflict. 

Except that was the entire purpose of the VSD-II upgrade- gave it a speed upgrade and switched out some of the guns so it can participate in "modern" combat.

Still mad about that.

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7 hours ago, Norsehound said:

Except that was the entire purpose of the VSD-II upgrade- gave it a speed upgrade and switched out some of the guns so it can participate in "modern" combat.

Still mad about that.

I’ve never really understood why FFG never made any distinction between ship variants in the nav/speed chart & shields. They are happy to with guns & stats however...

And as you say, the VSD II was a specific case of this.

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3 hours ago, ISD Avenger said:

I’ve never really understood why FFG never made any distinction between ship variants in the nav/speed chart & shields. They are happy to with guns & stats however...

And as you say, the VSD II was a specific case of this.

I'm also kinda surprised there isn't a non-unique support team (or new "engineering" upgrade slot) engine modification that increases a yaw click

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12 minutes ago, strikenowhere said:

I was thinking more of a permanent effect that doesn't require triggering via commands/tokens but yeah I forgot about that upgrade.

It'd be cool to see another upgrade card that uses Supports to buff offensive/defensive power at the expense of movement, like

"All Power to Weapons" 

During your activation, you may exhaust this card. If you do, while attacking, you may re-roll two die. You may not use Yaw values while this card is exhausted. 

"All Power to Shields"

Same stuff but "you may regain one shield or move two shields"

 

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14 minutes ago, strikenowhere said:

I was thinking more of a permanent effect that doesn't require triggering via commands/tokens but yeah I forgot about that upgrade.

No wonder. Nav Team is very rarely played. Engine Techs is only 4 pts. more and much more useful.

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3 hours ago, Triangular said:

No wonder. Nav Team is very rarely played. Engine Techs is only 4 pts. more and much more useful.

 

Engine techs is certainly good, but in my head my theoretical upgrade would be something like this:

 

  • Maneuvering Thrusters
    • 4 pts
    • Navigation Retrofit (a new upgrade type)
    • During the "Determine Course" step, you may increase your yaw value by 1
Edited by strikenowhere

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On 9/16/2019 at 11:49 AM, Church14 said:

That would give the Starhawk the same maneuver chart as the VSD. The chart that people have complained at length about how it is so bad that it makes the VSD subpar. Except Rebels don’t have a commander that magically fixed the maneuver chart without burning command dials or tokens. 

 

Thematically, Starhawks were intended to throw down with ISDs, which means they’d need to be fast enough to keep pace with their target. 

 

The only speed 2 large ship is the Home One class. The Home One class is also the only large ship that wasn’t designed from ground up to be a combat ship (ISD, MC75) or refitted with a lot of extras for combat (Liberty gained the wings in refit). Heck, the only speed 2 medium is interdictor, which also isn’t designed for heavy combat.

 

So a speed 2 Starhawk would not be thematic and would make it too passive for game mechanics. Give it a garbage maneuver chart if you want, but it should not be speed 2.

I appreciate your info.  I wasn't sure what, if anything, the novels said about the starhawks engines and maneuverability.  I didn't think it would be super maneuverable as its kinda a big bulky behemoth but as I said, I haven't read the aftermath series so I don't know a think.  

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On 9/16/2019 at 9:49 AM, Church14 said:

That would give the Starhawk the same maneuver chart as the VSD. The chart that people have complained at length about how it is so bad that it makes the VSD subpar. Except Rebels don’t have a commander that magically fixed the maneuver chart without burning command dials or tokens. 

 

Thematically, Starhawks were intended to throw down with ISDs, which means they’d need to be fast enough to keep pace with their target. 

 

The only speed 2 large ship is the Home One class. The Home One class is also the only large ship that wasn’t designed from ground up to be a combat ship (ISD, MC75) or refitted with a lot of extras for combat (Liberty gained the wings in refit). Heck, the only speed 2 medium is interdictor, which also isn’t designed for heavy combat.

 

So a speed 2 Starhawk would not be thematic and would make it too passive for game mechanics. Give it a garbage maneuver chart if you want, but it should not be speed 2.

I disagree with the Sentiment.

Mostly because that is assuming that the Imperials Run Away.  That's the only time you need to be as Fast as a Star Destroyer.

Which, basically.  They don't.  Run away that is.  How dare you assume they do :D

 

The Starhawk is there to *challenge* them, and *challenge* they do...  Its ingrained into the Imperial Mindset - retreating to fight a better battle is Tactics that only someone like Thrawn impels in them, and frankly - he's already too far out of the picture.

In either case, Aftermath doens't give us the greatest feeling in either direction, really.  Only that you can't shove them together and say "Now, KISS!" because, well, that leads to Super Star Destroyers literally falling out of the Sky :D

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On 8/1/2019 at 11:25 AM, xanderf said:

New Rebel Commander is weird, too.  Like...what's the point of that?  You get to spend a defense token during the spend defense token step?  Oooookay???


Not only that, but she's the only commander to date (I think) that only works on her ship and doesn't have a universal ability that affects your fleet.  So she's 20pts to give a (second, accuracy-proof) one-time use Brace token.  Is that good?  Yes.  Is it worth 20pts on the right ship?  Probably.  Is it worth not having any other commander effect for the rest of your ships or the rest of the game?  Eh, I dunno, even if it is... it's hella boring and dull and makes the fleet very vanilla.

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1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Mostly because that is assuming that the Imperials Run Away.  That's the only time you need to be as Fast as a Star Destroyer.

Which, basically.  They don't.  Run away that is.  How dare you assume they do :D



Running away is the only way good ISD Imperial players play Armada:

(1) Fly ISD into teeth of battle
(2) Kill some stuff
(3) Run damaged ISD away at Speed 3 so nothing can kill it in the remaining rounds
(4) Collect your win

If the ISD ain't running, it's because it died.

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32 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Not only that, but she's the only commander to date (I think) that only works on her ship and doesn't have a universal ability that affects your fleet.  So she's 20pts to give a (second, accuracy-proof) one-time use Brace token.  Is that good?  Yes.  Is it worth 20pts on the right ship?  Probably.  Is it worth not having any other commander effect for the rest of your ships or the rest of the game?  Eh, I dunno, even if it is... it's hella boring and dull and makes the fleet very vanilla.

Because you have to spend 20 points and Dodonna is of limited usefulness without Crit effect cards. It feels like very few ships with enough hull for enough Crit cards to make a difference don’t have contains. Basically the Liberty and VSD?

 

Agate will do something every game. Less than many commanders, but more than nothing.

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9 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Agate will do something every game. Less than many commanders, but more than nothing.


Sure, but I guess my basic position is that the something she does feels more like what an officer should do, not a Commander.  Because, as a Commander effect, it makes for a very dull, boring, vanilla feel (which isn't to say that it won't be powerful or potentially game winning).  Just that an Ackbar fleet, a Reikan Fleet, a Dodonna Fleet, a Raddus fleet, and a Mothma fleet all feel quite different, they all have an identify around which to orient the fleet, a stylish mechanic to play around (not unlike the two most popular Imp Commanders: Sloane and Jerjerrod).


Is Agate powerful?  Probably.   Is she boring?  Ugh, yes.

Seeing as the Imps already have more commanders, and that the Rebels haven't had a new commander in like 650 days, and that this is likely the last Rebel Commander for a long time... she doesn't change the game at all for the Rebels.  She's  not fresh or exciting.  She's basically just a "Super-ECM" for your biggest ship.  Yawn.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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10 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Sure, but I guess my basic position is that the something she does feels more like what an officer should do, not a Commander.  Because, as a Commander effect, it makes for a very dull, boring, vanilla feel (which isn't to say that it won't be powerful or potentially game winning).  Just that an Ackbar fleet, a Reikan Fleet, a Dodonna Fleet, and a Mothma fleet all feel quite different, they all have an identify and an effect that will trigger a lot more than once-per-game. 


Is Agate powerful?  Probably.   Is she boring?  Ugh, yes.

The effects of her effect will trigger more than once per game. Additional defense token is a lot of minor effects. Discard to gain token effect means that accuracy generation means less against you. It makes Avenger less useful, which it feels about 30% of Imp fleets have. 

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