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awp832

Glimpse the Unthinkable: rules

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So...  this card says to draw until you reach your max hand size.  

Now ... correct me if I'm wrong here,  but investigators don't have a maximum hand size, unless it is the Upkeep phase.    So...   technically can you draw your entire deck?

Ok,  so that was a not-so-serious question,   but here is the serious one.   Laboratory assistant says that you increase your hand size by 2 while checking hand size during the upkeep phase.   So....   if you have Laboratory assistant down and you play glimpse the unthinkable...   what happens?   Do you draw up to 8 or up to 10?   
Obviously you arent playing Glimpse the Unthinkable during the upkeep phase,  so... done deal,  lab assistant doesnt apply right?   But then again,  the only time you actually technically have a hand limit is during the upkeep phase.   Hence the janky question to start this post.  I feel if Lab assistant wasnt supposed to work with Glimpse,  they would have just said "...draw up to 8 cards."   

Similarly,  there is a certain forgotten age scenario in which your hand size is reduced during upkeep.   Does this apply to Glimpse the Unthinkable?

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This is my third revision.  I keep changing my mind.

The reduction you mention actually doesn't say "while checking"; it straight up says your maximum is reduced.

So it could be that some cards affect and/or use your maximum at all times while some only affect/use it during Upkeep.  Glimpse is the former (so is Feed the Mind).  So you normally draw up to 8, even if you have Lab Assistant boosting your upkeep-time maximum.  But in that particular scenario, you would draw fewer, because it's affecting your all-the-time maximum.

 

That said, I don't think for a second that it will be ruled this way.  Your max is always your max, adjusted accordingly.

Edited by CSerpent

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By the rules as written the best I can do is suggest that an investigators hand size is normally 8 cards at all times, but your hand is only checked against this number during the Upkeep phase.

Laboratory Assistant explicitly says that your maximum is only increased by two during the Upkeep phase, which would mean it would not affect the number of cards you draw with Glimpse the Unthinkable.

Any unconditional effect that changes hand size would affect the number of cards drawn with Glimpse the Unthinkable.

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6 hours ago, C2K said:

The max hand size is a permanent effect.  You only check for your max hand size during the upkeep phase, but you have a max hand size.

Right, this is what I meant by "all the time", I wasn't clear.  Just like the doom limit is always there but only sometimes has an effect.

The cards that specify "during the upkeep phase" are all Carcosa and earlier.  It could be they got to a point where they said "We really don't need this extra line of text.  Of course it's in the Upkeep phase"

Edited by CSerpent

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I seem to remember I was going to query this; I can't remember if it was on the list of queries I submitted for Black Throne.

So the rules seem pretty clear, that the Lab Assistant only specifies the Upkeep Phase so it won't apply elsewhere. But the counterargument is that "while checking your hand size during the upkeep phase" is either a reminder rather than a restriction (but then those are usually in brackets) or is intended as just a more comprehensive way of saying "your maximum hand size", at time of printing Lab Assistant, there was nothing else that interacted with hand size. Perhaps it'll end up addressed in an upcoming FAQ.

For now, however, absent any contradicting instructions from the designers or the FAQ, the only "correct" interpretation by the rules and card text is that Lab Assistant and Glimpse the Unthinkable don't interact.

I got into an argument somewhere actually since it would theoretically be possible to play Glimpse the Unthinkable during that step of the game, if some kind of effect were triggered due to discarding from hand, which resulted in a skill test (possible if the theoretical triggered effect caused damage, horror, card draw, movement, discard of assets from play, etc.), with Quick Thinking committed to the test to take an action. If you did manage this (I don't think there's currently any effect that can trigger due discard during the hand size step but one could easily be printed in future) and then play Glimpse the Unthinkable during the same step with a Lab Assistant in play, then you will get the extra 2 cards of draw...

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13 minutes ago, gazzagames said:

Isn’t there a weakness as well that interacts with hand size? So that would also not have an impact on glimpse...

 

Drawing the Sign, yes. It also uses the "when checking hand size during upkeep" text so yes, by the rules as we have them, it will not interact with Glimpse.

My suspicion really is that Glimpse the Unthinkable is essentially meant to be "draw up to 8" at pretty much all times, but they used the wording they did to avoid it being too powerful in The City of Archives, and for any future interactions with scenarios where hand size becomes a "thing", so it's intentional that it doesn't interact with the Lab Assistant and Drawing the Sign, but we shall (hopefully) see for certain when we get responses and/or a new FAQ.

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I don't disagree about the rules as written.  But this also means Lab Assistant and Drawing the Sign don't have an effect during certain effects in City of Archives.  I'd be very surprised if anyone has played them that way.  It's funny because, IIRC (I haven't played it in a a while), Assistant would be detrimental and Drawing the Sign helpful.

Edited by CSerpent

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3 minutes ago, Soakman said:

I've always played that you can have as many cards as you want in your hand other than when you check and discard down during upkeep. Does not mean I am right though.

Oh, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.  The question is whether that number is the same when it's referenced at other points in the game, and what cards change it, and when.

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26 minutes ago, CSerpent said:

I don't disagree about the rules as written.  But this also means Lab Assistant and Drawing the Sign don't have an effect during certain effects in City of Archives.  I'd be very surprised if anyone has played them that way.  It's funny because, IIRC (I haven't played it in a a while), Assistant would be detrimental and Drawing the Sign helpful.

As it stands, City of Archives is an argument in favour of the idea that the cards are meant to work that way - the Agenda text in City of Archives states "Each investigator's maximum hand size is reduced by x", without the same "while checking maximum hand size during the upkeep phase" text. Naturally, inconsistency in card wording does not necessarily mean that the cards are intended to work differently, but it does lend credence to the idea that "while checking maximum hand size during the upkeep phase" is not simply the standard card wording to refer to maximum hand size that can be safely ignored, but instead a specific and distinct bit of rules text for Drawing the Sign and Lab Assistant.

I've certainly played that Lab Assistant/Drawing the Sign do not interact with the effect in City of the Archives that checks player hand size outside of the Upkeep Phase, and I'm not sure why that should be so surprising.

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18 minutes ago, Allonym said:

 

As it stands, City of Archives is an argument in favour of the idea that the cards are meant to work that way - the Agenda text in City of Archives states "Each investigator's maximum hand size is reduced by x", without the same "while checking maximum hand size during the upkeep phase" text. Naturally, inconsistency in card wording does not necessarily mean that the cards are intended to work differently, but it does lend credence to the idea that "while checking maximum hand size during the upkeep phase" is not simply the standard card wording to refer to maximum hand size that can be safely ignored, but instead a specific and distinct bit of rules text for Drawing the Sign and Lab Assistant.

But that scenario also has an ability that checks your hand size outside the Upkeep phase.  So all that really tells us is that the Agenda text does affect that ability.

As I said before, the cards with the specific Upkeep phase text were before any of these cards that interact with the maximum at other times.  Without it, I imagine the early days of the forums would have been filled with questions about when you have to check your hand size.  

Quote

I've certainly played that Lab Assistant/Drawing the Sign do not interact with the effect in City of the Archives that checks player hand size outside of the Upkeep Phase, and I'm not sure why that should be so surprising.

I find it surprising because this thread is the first time I've seen anyone raise the topic.  I hadn't parsed Lab Assistant or Drawing the Sign closely enough to consider it (probably because there was no reason to before City of Archives, and I haven't played them since then).

Edited by CSerpent

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11 minutes ago, CSerpent said:


As I said before, the cards with the specific Upkeep phase text were before any of these cards that interact with the maximum at other times.  Without it, I imagine the early days of the forums would have been filled with questions about when you have to check your hand size. 

I agree. Indeed, I echoed these same thoughts here less than two hours ago. Except the bit about the forums.

So this isn't really a point of contention. We can't know for certain what the intent was, the rules as they are are pretty unambiguous in terms of wording but not intent, and it's an issue that should and hopefully will be addressed by the designers; I checked back and I did indeed send a rules query to FFG about the issue myself, so it's a case of wait and see, I guess.

Edited by Allonym
less snark because text is not an ideal medium for tone

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1 minute ago, Allonym said:

I mean, I agree. That's...precisely what I posted earlier in this thread less than two hours ago. Except the bit about the forums.

So it seems odd to make a confrontation out of this. We can't know for certain what the intent was, the rules as they are are pretty unambiguous in terms of wording but not intent, and it's an issue that should and hopefully will be addressed by the designers; I checked back and I did indeed send a rules query to FFG about the issue myself.

Cool.  Now that the Dreamlands have returned Matt, I hope we get an answer soon.

I hope none of my posts have come off as confrontational.  My intent was only friendly debate and recreational rules lawyering.

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Just now, CSerpent said:

Cool.  Now that the Dreamlands have returned Matt, I hope we get an answer soon.

I hope none of my posts have come off as confrontational.  My intent was only friendly debate and recreational rules lawyering.

Same (just edited in fact). You know what text is like for understanding tone, so apologies for any misinterpretations.

I imagine that there's gonna be a lot of rules questions about recent cards and recent scenarios so I think we might be waiting a while.

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