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mwknowles

"It's not that bad" - Location

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Hi there,

This situation came up twice recently in my game and i pulled GM rank on it but would like to have the collective opinion please.

 

The party medic used his "It's not that bad" talent to cancel a critical, and i'm good with that; the think i wasn't happy with is that he wanted to do it from a distance. The medic was in the same encounter but a full double maneuver away. Now the medic claims that just by saying (effectively) "It's not that bad" the talent works; but i ruled he had to be at the victims location for it to work. Thematically because the medic would be looking over the wound and patching it up, saying "It's not that bad".

 

However the medic (asleep in a tent, and woken by gun fire) wanted to just roll over and say "It's not that bad" and thats that; which i thought is rules lawyering to the letter and against the nature of any game. (just because the talent ways the critical is instantly cancelled with a medicine check.

 

Anyone had this happen before?

 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I've never used the "Its not that bad" talent, but I have had plenty of play time with Bad Motivator, which thematically is more or less the same thing (the ability to cause a malfunction in a piece of equipment instead of letting someone shake off crits). Using that talent, I was able to do it at range - but I always justified why the shield generator waaaaay over there was about to fail.  Looking through macrobinoculars at the target, going "Oh yeah, they're totally running their sonic oscillator way too hot. That thing is not long for the world." or some such. Sometimes it was at range, sometimes I put my hands on the item - but I always had to assess the target somehow.

I'd say the same thing here - that the medic at least has to look at a medical scan, have the victim on a holodisplay or otherwise be in a spot where they can put eyes on the victim. Just rolling over in his bed and saying the words? Yeah, it's not an incantation. That's nonsense.

 

EDIT:

By the way, here's what I thought back in 2016 about Bad Motivator at range:

On 2/15/2016 at 10:20 PM, Desslok said:

Probably line of sight (or enhanced line of sight, watching a landing ship with Macrobinoculars or the like). Hmmm, I'd have to think if I'd allow it over vid screens or the like. "Hey, General - you might want to attend to that sparking sensor panel behind - oh, never mind. Forget I said anything!"

Boy, thinking about it, how about over sensor displays? "I wonder if that freighter captain realizes that he's heading right into a Charged Vacuum Emboitment? It'll almost certainly knock out the shields for a few minutes while the backup kicks in. Better send the fighters now, commander!"

So yeah, if they can justify it, I'd say be flexible. ****, maybe someday when he is super badass Doctor, with 5 ranks in medicine, is down to the bottom of several medical trees and able to remove 6 blacks from his roll, I might give him is "I don't need to see what I know".

But generally? Naw, at least put eyes on the dude on the medical table.

Edited by Desslok

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2 hours ago, Desslok said:

I've never used the "Its not that bad" talent, but I have had plenty of play time with Bad Motivator, which thematically is more or less the same thing (the ability to cause a malfunction in a piece of equipment instead of letting someone shake off crits). Using that talent, I was able to do it at range - but I always justified why the shield generator waaaaay over there was about to fail.  Looking through macrobinoculars at the target, going "Oh yeah, they're totally running their sonic oscillator way too hot. That thing is not long for the world." or some such. Sometimes it was at range, sometimes I put my hands on the item - but I always had to assess the target somehow.

I'd say the same thing here - that the medic at least has to look at a medical scan, have the victim on a holodisplay or otherwise be in a spot where they can put eyes on the victim. Just rolling over in his bed and saying the words? Yeah, it's not an incantation. That's nonsense.

I agree almost 100%.  It's not an incantation.  It's not some sphere of influence that exudes from the medic.

I could see a character invoking this in an incantation like manner though.  It would be very specific and would need backstory, but I'd allow it.

If the medic had a history of mocking patients claim of pain.  Players always having to beg for medical care, the medic telling them to walk it off to save medical supplies, the medic using this skill several times in the past.  If the player getting hit with the critical actually role plays it...I'd consider allowing it.

Player gets shot, gets a critical, cries out for the medic, then openly says something "Well, that's pointless, he's just going to tell me to grow a pair, walk it off, and start shooting back."

 

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"It's not that bad" is the name of the talent, its not a spell that the medic can cast from X number of feet away.
I would say that the medic has to be at the injured character and doing some kind of triage/diagnosis of the injury...checking for wounds, applying whatever pressure bandage or gauze and duct tape to stop the bleeding, the ubiquitous 'shot of morphine', and There ya go...It's Not That Bad.

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Posted (edited)

I'm going to come down on the other side of this: It's Not That Bad is an out-of-turn incidental, and it outright prevents the crit from taking place rather than removing it after the fact. This doesn't mesh with the idea that the medic has to be looking the person over or providing any kind of treatment - it doesn't involve any meaningful amount of time, nor would there be any injury to look over and treat.

It's also a one-per-session ability that does not have any other limitations written into it - it doesn't even have a range requirement (like being near the person to treat them...). It *should* be usable whenever the trigger comes up, because it's a signature "once per session, something awesome happens" talent in the final row of the tree.

Two other considerations.

tt's entirely in keeping with the setting's style of humor if the medic responds to the "I'm bleeding out!" by mumbling "No, you're not," falling right back asleep - and being right about it.

Second, in the circumstances, this would let the medic character (and player) participate in the scene that round rather than twiddling their thumbs. That's a good thing.

Edited by Garran

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I view these Talents not as special abilities a PC has because of their training, but a very focused point of narrative insertion that doesn't require a DP to be flipped or a couple of Triumphs to be spent.  That's it's nominally tied to a career associated with that type of activity is almost beside the point, though you could argue it's about flavour.

Probably one of the reasons I dislike those Talents so much.  I wouldn't mind if a player took the time to describe something as Desslok did...that would make it go down more smoothly...but many won't; and besides, being able to, say, turn off Darth Vader's breathing apparatus "just because" rubs me the wrong way.

But regardless of my opinion of the Talents, I think the intent is for narrative insertion, which for the OP means the doc doesn't have to be anywhere close by or even awake.

 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, whafrog said:

and besides, being able to, say, turn off Darth Vader's breathing apparatus "just because" rubs me the wrong way.

In the time since we last had the discussion about Bad Motivatoring Vader's breathing apparatus, we've seen that same thing (more or less) play out in the comics via a back door in the chest unit's software. It. . . didnt end well for the guy who switched Vader's lungs off.

Edited by Desslok

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Mark Caliber said:

As a GM, I'd rule that the 'It's not that bad' talent would need to be done on a patient that is adjacent to the medic.

 

That really destroys the value of a once per session 25 point talent. The chance that your medic happens to be right by the injured party is often low in a chaotic combat situation. This is an out of turn incidental power. You glance over, give them a quick look and say “Stop being such a baby, it’s not that bad.”  Boom, crit never happened.   Remember, you’re not healing the crit.  Per the rules as written you are keeping it from happening.

I’m  not sure why people are making such a fuss. It’s one crit a session, not some game breaking mechanic. Let the players have their fun.

Edited by Split Light

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13 hours ago, Split Light said:

That really destroys the value of a once per session 25 point talent. The chance that your medic happens to be right by the injured party is often low in a chaotic combat situation. This is an out of turn incidental power. You glance over, give them a quick look and say “Stop being such a baby, it’s not that bad.”  Boom, crit never happened.   Remember, you’re not healing the crit.  Per the rules as written you are keeping it from happening.

I’m  not sure why people are making such a fuss. It’s one crit a session, not some game breaking mechanic. Let the players have their fun.

Totally support this stance.  Once per session talents are powerful,  but that's the point of the once per session tag.  It helps once then it's done.  So what if the guy is across the battlefield.

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Posted (edited)

I'm with the Rules Lawyers. There's no restriction or requirement in the Talent description and throwing arbitrary restrictions on is bad form.

 

It's like saying "Gearhead is too powerful so it only works if you're trying to fix something that actually has gears".

 

You can house-rule whatever you want, but saying an out of turn incidental actually needs a full medical exam is a massive nerf.

 

There's nothing in the Talent suggesting medical care or patching wounds up. It's a narrative ability: the medic who has seen and treated hundreds of critical wounds is explaining that the injured character does not have a critical wound.

Edited by JohnDoe244

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On 8/1/2019 at 5:10 AM, JohnDoe244 said:

I'm with the Rules Lawyers. There's no restriction or requirement in the Talent description and throwing arbitrary restrictions on is bad form.

 

It's like saying "Gearhead is too powerful so it only works if you're trying to fix something that actually has gears".

 

You can house-rule whatever you want, but saying an out of turn incidental actually needs a full medical exam is a massive nerf.

 

There's nothing in the Talent suggesting medical care or patching wounds up. It's a narrative ability: the medic who has seen and treated hundreds of critical wounds is explaining that the injured character does not have a critical wound.

Yes but they must at least inspect the wound to make a judgement.

 

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On 7/31/2019 at 2:14 AM, LugWrench said:

"It's not that bad" is the name of the talent, its not a spell that the medic can cast from X number of feet away.
I would say that the medic has to be at the injured character and doing some kind of triage/diagnosis of the injury...checking for wounds, applying whatever pressure bandage or gauze and duct tape to stop the bleeding, the ubiquitous 'shot of morphine', and There ya go...It's Not That Bad.

Exactly my thoughts! Thank you.

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On 7/31/2019 at 12:33 PM, Split Light said:

That really destroys the value of a once per session 25 point talent. The chance that your medic happens to be right by the injured party is often low in a chaotic combat situation. This is an out of turn incidental power. You glance over, give them a quick look and say “Stop being such a baby, it’s not that bad.”  Boom, crit never happened.   Remember, you’re not healing the crit.  Per the rules as written you are keeping it from happening.

I’m  not sure why people are making such a fuss. It’s one crit a session, not some game breaking mechanic. Let the players have their fun.

No it doesn't. It prevents a critical hit! That's extreme. 

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4 hours ago, mwknowles said:

Yes but they must at least inspect the wound to make a judgement.

 

It's an out-of-turn incidental. Look at the examples given for incidentals in the core rules.

That doesn't allow for the time to inspect a wound or even giving it a good look.

It actually doesseem closer to an incantation than anything else. It is a narrative ability where the player retcons away an injury. The character doesn't actually do anything.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, mwknowles said:

You play your way..I'll play mine.

Then why did you make this topic? I get it you dont like a character getting to remove a crit. With no effort. But that is exactly what the talent does. You can house rule a bunch of requirements on to it. But you will devalue the 25 point talent by doing so. The talent is basically a medic telling another person to stop being a baby and suck it up. They dont have a crit.

Edited by Daeglan

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Better than many other RPG companies. But as others have pointed out this talent is an out of turn incidental. Ie it is something that takes almost no time. So it does not require any kind of examination. Which it is clear you want. You act like you were robbed of a crit. That really is not a good attitude in this game. This game is not you vs. Your players. But you kind of act like your game is you vs. Your players. 

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I can understand both arguments here and at first I was leaning that the Medic would need to be at least in short range of the target but I have begun to agree with the others.  I, personally, would run it that they would have to be in line of site of the person taking the hit.  The talent does require a Hard Medical check so that means they need to be able to actually see the person. 

 

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On 8/3/2019 at 8:30 PM, mwknowles said:

No it doesn't. It prevents a critical hit! That's extreme. 

That's just it, it's not extreme.  It's one crit.  Our sessions can have 5ish crits a session, maybe 10 in a big fighty episode.  So one of those crits doesn't happen, who cares.  There are other talents out there that have a much more dramatic effects for even less justifiable reasons.  

It sounds like we're not going to agree on this, and that's fine.  It's your game table, but you asked our opinion, and I expressed it.  In my opinion you're doing your players a disservice and seriously devaluing a 25 point once per session talent.

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Quote

 

That's just it, it's not extreme.  It's one crit.  Our sessions can have 5ish crits a session, maybe 10 in a big fighty episode.  So one of those crits doesn't happen, who cares.  There are other talents out there that have a much more dramatic effects for even less justifiable reasons.  

 

Exactly. At the end of the day, it's just one crit. Well timed against the right crit at the right moment and it could be a game changer, but it's still just one crit out of many.

Sure I'm of the belief that there should be some kind of interaction with the wound in question - a glance assessment would be enough (more however than the stated "I roll over from being sound asleep and say the words") - but the talent is more designed to make the battlefield doctor a super cool badass at the top of his game. The GM should work with the player to that end (and visa versa).

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