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Scum As A Faction

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, jcmonson said:

I agree Scum shouldn't just be a catchall for everything not part of the other factions.  I would prefer to see separate factions of Scum, like the Hutts being their own faction as well.  Someone mentioned that the Scum could be separate subfactions with say a corp unit be used by all.  That would work as well.

Exactly.  There are enough ways to make "generic" types of Corps units and then use the other org slots to define a Scum army and keep it from being a catch-all faction where people just take the most effective units.  Roll out a Keyword - Syndicate: X.

In order for a unit with Syndicate: X to be included in an army, there has to be a matching commander with the keyword. Want to run the Hylobon Enforcers who have the Syndicate: Crimson Dawn keyword? You have to have Darth Maul or Dryden Vos as your commander (because they also have the Syndicate: Crimson Dawn keyword).

 

Edited by FSD

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To be honest, I would like to be able to field Hondo and his crew of pirates, but if I can't that's not going to make me stop playing the game. Mostly, I just want the models for a reasonablish price and in scale with the rest of Legion's miniatures.

I do agree with a subfaction approach with some small overlap, it prevents some of the odd team ups. 

I'd also be fine with FFG limiting Legion to just the factions traditionally represented as militarily inclined.

But they've already included one faction of criminals and disparate factions fighting for a common goal, including some pacifists, what's one more 😛.

.

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8 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

To be honest, I would like to be able to field Hondo and his crew of pirates, but if I can't that's not going to make me stop playing the game. Mostly, I just want the models for a reasonablish price and in scale with the rest of Legion's miniatures.

I do agree with a subfaction approach with some small overlap, it prevents some of the odd team ups. 

I'd also be fine with FFG limiting Legion to just the factions traditionally represented as militarily inclined.

But they've already included one faction of criminals and disparate factions fighting for a common goal, including some pacifists, what's one more 😛.

.

I'm more of the mind that Hondo should be a mini campaign like the Downed AT-ST..  constantly earning more victory points than the opponent lets you control Hondo.    That way you can have a back and forth trying to curry favour with that lovable scoundrel.  

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1 hour ago, FSD said:

Exactly.  There are enough ways to make "generic" types of Corps units and then use the other org slots to define a Scum army and keep it from being a catch-all faction where people just take the most effective units.  Roll out a Keyword - Syndicate: X.

In order for a unit with Syndicate: X to be included in an army, there has to be a matching commander with the keyword. Want to run the Hylobon Enforcers who have the Syndicate: Crimson Dawn keyword? You have to have Darth Maul or Dryden Vos as your commander (because they also have the Syndicate: Crimson Dawn keyword).

 

That is what would be needed.. a way to reign in the hodge-podgery.

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2 hours ago, FSD said:

Exactly.  There are enough ways to make "generic" types of Corps units and then use the other org slots to define a Scum army and keep it from being a catch-all faction where people just take the most effective units.  Roll out a Keyword - Syndicate: X.

In order for a unit with Syndicate: X to be included in an army, there has to be a matching commander with the keyword. Want to run the Hylobon Enforcers who have the Syndicate: Crimson Dawn keyword? You have to have Darth Maul or Dryden Vos as your commander (because they also have the Syndicate: Crimson Dawn keyword).

 

This is a better way to explain the subfaction concept I’ve argued for in other scum in legion threads. This would be perfect.

I see the following all as viable: Crimson Dawn, Hutts, Black Sun, Hondo’s Pirates.

I would absolutely buy and paint up an army of marauders for Hondo Ohnaka.

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It could work fine as a catch all as well as long as the base unit was something of a ragtag bunch of ruffians and not something organized.  Most of Jabba's barge cadre works for any of the pirate factions.  A bit of specialization could be done by making a rule that tied some Special Forces units to a specific commander.

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Posted (edited)

We have been over this soooooooo many times.  Every time I end up copying my response I made to one of these threads that came up so long ago.  Essentially what it comes down to is Yes it will work just fine.  No we don't need it to be crippled by dividing it into sub-factions that can't work with each other.  Yes there are MORE than enough units that you could match any of the existing factions unit for unit.  No you don't need to justify an entire war between criminals and empire/rebels to be able to pit a few squads against each other.  

 

Ah here it is:

Quote

If you can't imagine a group of criminals having the firepower necessary for going head to head with an Imperial or Rebel platoon, then you need to watch Kelly's heroes, Public Enemies, The Magnificent Seven/The Seven Samurai, Solo, or heck, just watch any news reports about South American Cartels.  As for generic vs specific subfactions, generic is much better.  Let FFG provide us with options to make our armies unique instead of creating artificial boundaries.  If you can't imagine Hutts working alongside Crimson Dawn for a job, then I can't imagine how you must feel about Palpatine and Boba Fett leading an army of Snowtroopers and Dewback riders...

The main issue is if a criminal faction can fill out a full list with analogs for the units of the existing factions.

well...

Stormtrooper/Reb Trooper Analogue:  Thugs.  Cantina bois with blaster pistols and vibroknives.  Cheap, cowardly and maybe some dirty tricks with their upgrade cards.

Snowtrooper/Fleet Trooper Analogue:  Pirates.  Weequay, Nikto and grungy humans with some body armor and rifles.  

Shoretrooper/Veteran Analogue: Some sort of professionals.  Crimson Dawn troopers from Solo, Pyke soldiers or even just generic heavy duty criminals with a quad cannon or deck gun attached.

 

Scout trooper/Rebel Commando Analogue:  Bounty Hunters.  Think of the teams that Cad Bane worked with in the Clone Wars Show.  This would be a great set to throw in some different heads to make them unique.  Obviously one would be a sniper and one would have some sort of charge.

Imperial Royal Guard/Wookies Analogue:  Gammoreans.  3 big piggies with axes and blaster pistols plus one with a vibrohalberd.

Deathtrooper/Pathfinder Analogue: Mandalorean mercs.  Lots of gear options, a variety of weapons for the different configs.

 

AT-RT/Dewback Analogue:  Bantha Rider, Heavy Speeder Bike (Like Rey's)

Speeder Bike/Tauntaun Analogue:  Swoop Bike gangers.

E-Web/Rebel Laser Analogue:  Any sort of mounted gun.  There were a few in Solo.

 

Heavies are already not particularly analagous between factions so it could be any number of options:  Skiff Speeder, Armored up landspeeder, Hovertank...

Operatives and commanders (same as heavies):  Jabba, Hondo, IG-88, Hondo, Zuckuss, Hondo, 4-LOM, Hondo, Dengar, Hondo, Azmorrigan, Hondo, Dryden Voss, Hondo, Cikatro Vizago, Hondo, Dr. Evezan and Ponda Baba, Hondo, Hondo, Hondo...

There is absolutely zero reason to exclude any force from taking "mismatched" units.  When we have Jedi Luke supported by clone wars era wookies going head to head with Orson Krennic supported by the emperors own Royal Guard does it really matter?  If you want a thematic force then police yourself! Tauntaunscout decided he wanted a hoth themed force and guess what?  He can make one (and one that is pretty effective overall) by picking and choosing from the Rebel units out there.  If I want to make the Rabid Wamprat gang from Californooine and it includes a selection of Gammoreans, Mandalorean mercs, a Noghri-for-hire, Dengar and a Hutt gangster who put that team together, I should be able to do so just like the person who wants to make a Crimson dawn force using only units that appeared in the Solo movie should be able to do so.  If the rebels and empire were limited (for example only Jyn can take Pathfinders, only the Emperor can take Royal Guard, Only Veers can take Snowtroopers, Only Leia can take Fleet Troopers...) then we could be discussing this from that angle.  As it is though, creating subfactions that can't work together or have penalties for working together is insane.  It would be a broken faction that no one could play.  It is an especially bad idea since the game already has built in theming mechanics in the form of Entourage and Teamwork.

Edited by devin.pike.1989

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, docForsaken said:

neutral boosters for Scum maybe?  Be great for a little variety to add some Gamorreans to battle Wookies.  Not sure a whole faction makes sense?  Are the Hutts or Crimson Dawn going to war with the Empire?  Highly unlikely?  Thats not how the underworld works. 

No but they make for fun armies. Like the empire scrambled whatever forces it could in a distant system, supplementing them with locally sourced "security contractors".  Or the rebels rubbing shoulders with seedy underworld types, getting help from a space pirate and her hearty crew. Or whatever.

In my mind they're more of a modelling thing than anything else, they should have very normal stats and normal cost so they don't become a loophle within a minmax and ruin the flavor of the game. Either highly limit them, or stat them out as rebel troopers or stormtroopers that either side can take. Package a new upgrade card with them or something if you have to.

I mean if instead of a "faction", I got a squad of crazy R1 guys for the rebels, and a squad of weaker bounty hunters the Empire could take, I'd be just as happy. But that's twice as many SKU's. Just make one product, with 4 faction icons in the corner of the stat card. Maybe make them Unique Corps or something. Fill them with all the cool aliens. Snaggletooth, Squidhead, Klaatu, Barada, Nikto... Good times.

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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13 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

There is absolutely zero reason to exclude any force from taking "mismatched" units.  When we have Jedi Luke supported by clone wars era wookies going head to head with Orson Krennic supported by the emperors own Royal Guard does it really matter?  If you want a thematic force then police yourself! Tauntaunscout decided he wanted a hoth themed force and guess what?  He can make one (and one that is pretty effective overall) by picking and choosing from the Rebel units out there.  If I want to make the Rabid Wamprat gang from Californooine and it includes a selection of Gammoreans, Mandalorean mercs, a Noghri-for-hire, Dengar and a Hutt gangster who put that team together, I should be able to do so just like the person who wants to make a Crimson dawn force using only units that appeared in the Solo movie should be able to do so.  If the rebels and empire were limited (for example only Jyn can take Pathfinders, only the Emperor can take Royal Guard, Only Veers can take Snowtroopers, Only Leia can take Fleet Troopers...) then we could be discussing this from that angle.  As it is though, creating subfactions that can't work together or have penalties for working together is insane.  It would be a broken faction that no one could play.  It is an especially bad idea since the game already has built in theming mechanics in the form of Entourage and Teamwork.

Lets take this facetious reasoning a step further..  why have factions at all?   There are stories in canon of imperial forces defecting.. i should be able to take imperial units.   🙄

I get that you are passionate about scum, but I'm looking at it from the standpoint it was, and maybe still is in x-wing, a catch all of everything that doesn't fit.   And I think that has a potential to blow up in terms of broken combos, and get to a point where it is more effective to play scum than any other faction - that is not something I want to see happen. For a time in x-wing all I saw people play were scum builds.    

I feel something could happen similarly in Legion if not careful.  Having scum and villainy be a collection of various sub factions would eliminate this, possibly.   We also have to factor in what will disney/lucasfilm allow?    

Look.. if they want to not call it scum and Villainy and make it the Shadow Syndicate, that seems the best option.   You can have Maul, Savage Opress, Pykes, Black sun together, but it is in a unified theme.  This can be built with a better balance for the game, as well as overall visual style - cards, command tokens, etc.   

Either way, even IF scum becomes a faction - and I don't believe it needs to, it will be a LONG way off.   By then we may get more units shown operating under Crimson Dawn.

 

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@That Blasted Samophlange  no agruement from me on having it be the Shadow Syndicate rather than a true catch-all. I also understand how mishmash factions can break a game. It's related to why I hope we don't get truly neutral mercenaries, since if the unit is good/fills a particular role that is otherwise not in the game (jump infantry for instance), then there is less diversity among all armies.

@TauntaunScout I like your suggestion, but it is probably unlikely due to FFG trying to stick to canon units as much as possible, and Hondo being the only individual/unit shown to be truly neutral. 

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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Hondo being the only individual/unit shown to be truly neutral. 

Is he though?   Hondo is his own faction.. though later in his life he has tended to side with the good guys - soft spots for Ezra and helping out the resistance (while getting to use the Millennium Falcon).   Chewie Likes Hondo.

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21 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Not Every game needs to have playable scum.   It is like playing Outer Rim and wanting to play Palpatine.  

^---This, so much this.  I'd rather not have Legion turn into Outer Rim.  Let different games be different.  

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2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

No but they make for fun armies. Like the empire scrambled whatever forces it could in a distant system, supplementing them with locally sourced "security contractors".  Or the rebels rubbing shoulders with seedy underworld types, getting help from a space pirate and her hearty crew. Or whatever.

In my mind they're more of a modelling thing than anything else, they should have very normal stats and normal cost so they don't become a loophle within a minmax and ruin the flavor of the game. Either highly limit them, or stat them out as rebel troopers or stormtroopers that either side can take. Package a new upgrade card with them or something if you have to.

I mean if instead of a "faction", I got a squad of crazy R1 guys for the rebels, and a squad of weaker bounty hunters the Empire could take, I'd be just as happy. But that's twice as many SKU's. Just make one product, with 4 faction icons in the corner of the stat card. Maybe make them Unique Corps or something. Fill them with all the cool aliens. Snaggletooth, Squidhead, Klaatu, Barada, Nikto... Good times.

 

I like your ideas: This could easily be explained with a new upgrade slot on all “Scum/Syndicate” cards. The Expansions could have only upgrade cards included in their box or even a miniature similar to heavy units to match the faction you want them include with. 

Or.... Specialist Scum Expansion that acts like the previous Specialist Expansion sets.  

Or.... A whole entire sub faction could work but like others have mentioned I’d like them sold as an “Army in a box”. Ewoks, Tuskens, Gungans, Nightsisters, Pirates or Hutts.  Each “Army in a box” has operatives and special forces that can be fielded in the main factions but would be limited. Also include unique cards, vehicles /heavies and maybe objective terrain pieces.  Pricing would be along the lines of a Core Set or cheaper. 

 

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I always liked the way WotC did the Fringe faction in their game. You could either make an all Fringe squad or bring a few along with your main faction squad. 

There are tons of sub faction that could be rolled into a Scum line. 

Hutt Cartel

Black Sun

Zhan Consortium

Pike Syndicate 

Corporate Sector Authority 

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2 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I get that you are passionate about scum, but I'm looking at it from the standpoint it was, and maybe still is in x-wing, a catch all of everything that doesn't fit.   And I think that has a potential to blow up in terms of broken combos, and get to a point where it is more effective to play scum than any other faction - that is not something I want to see happen. For a time in x-wing all I saw people play were scum builds.    

I feel something could happen similarly in Legion if not careful.  Having scum and villainy be a collection of various sub factions would eliminate this, possibly.   We also have to factor in what will disney/lucasfilm allow?    

I get that. Look, I don’t want the scum to be a catch all that is very unthematic and a mix of stuff.

I do, however, want some degree of thematic scum army usage. They’re fun, colorful, and look great to paint and have on the table.

I think Hutt cartel mercenaries is doable all on its own. Hondo’s forces are another acceptable band.

Too many things in catch all becomes a problem for sure - I don’t want that to happen.

FWIW - scum is now one of the worst in xwing 2.0 now that they nuked their most powerful elements. 

 

36 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

^---This, so much this.  I'd rather not have Legion turn into Outer Rim.  Let different games be different.  

Outer Rim is a single character making his way in the world. They are already different games. I’m not sure this is an overlap.

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12 minutes ago, Omegaclone said:

I like your ideas: This could easily be explained with a new upgrade slot on all “Scum/Syndicate” cards. The Expansions could have only upgrade cards included in their box or even a miniature similar to heavy units to match the faction you want them include with. 

Or.... Specialist Scum Expansion that acts like the previous Specialist Expansion sets.  

Or.... A whole entire sub faction could work but like others have mentioned I’d like them sold as an “Army in a box”. Ewoks, Tuskens, Gungans, Nightsisters, Pirates or Hutts.  Each “Army in a box” has operatives and special forces that can be fielded in the main factions but would be limited. Also include unique cards, vehicles /heavies and maybe objective terrain pieces.  Pricing would be along the lines of a Core Set or cheaper. 

 

I've suggested the army in a box idea as well.   I think it is a good middle ground for providing variety - something for everyone that can be balanced gameplay wise, lets the creators try something new/experimental without it breaking the game, allow things that don't fit other factions identity wise, and offer a nice collector/modelling option.   

While I think Gungans and Ewoks work well with republic and rebels (gungans were used by the republic when the separatists briefly held mon-cala) thinks like Tuskans and Nightsisters don't fit a faction, but certainly could be a self contained army.

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1 minute ago, ScummyRebel said:

Outer Rim is a single character making his way in the world. They are already different games. I’m not sure this is an overlap.

The point I originally was making was that the game (outer rim) was designed in such a way as to be scum-centric.   Adding in a playable Emperor, goes against the core idea of the game.   So, why then, can't Legion have core idea of the major armies battling?  Why do we need scum in it?   

The only viable reason is, they look cool.   And that is a good reason, as cool always sells.  But, steps need to be taken to not lead to bloat and potentially steam rolling.   

I am actually all for both more armies and scum, but not as a hodge-podge catch all.   Having defined army boxes for things like Tuskan Raiders, Nightsisters, Crimson Dawn, Deathwatch, etc makes sense to me; Provides new self contained full armies in a box set, which if new content comes out can be added as expansions later, and collecting and gaming wise allows a bit of everything that players can choose.   

These armies could then have abilities that fit  the theme for that army, but might be breaking applied to other units.   

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1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I am actually all for both more armies and scum, but not as a hodge-podge catch all.   Having defined army boxes for things like Tuskan Raiders, Nightsisters, Crimson Dawn, Deathwatch, etc makes sense to me; Provides new self contained full armies in a box set, which if new content comes out can be added as expansions later, and collecting and gaming wise allows a bit of everything that players can choose.   

These armies could then have abilities that fit  the theme for that army, but might be breaking applied to other units.   

I would be absolutely ok with this model as well. An army starter kit that amounts to a core box of minis (but one faction) to play out of the box or nearly out of the box.

I understand the bloat concerns. I am just less scared of it because I don’t think they will make it a catch all like they did for xwing.

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2 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Is he though?   Hondo is his own faction.. though later in his life he has tended to side with the good guys - soft spots for Ezra and helping out the resistance (while getting to use the Millennium Falcon).   Chewie Likes Hondo.

Well, Hondo basically works for whomever is most advantageous/potentially profitable for him at any given moment... So that's kind of like being truly neutral?

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6 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Well, Hondo basically works for whomever is most advantageous/potentially profitable for him at any given moment... So that's kind of like being truly neutral?

Same can be said of Thrawn now..   he only chose to join the Empire because he saw them as the side likely to win.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Lets take this facetious reasoning a step further..  why have factions at all?   There are stories in canon of imperial forces defecting.. i should be able to take imperial units.   🙄

I get that you are passionate about scum, but I'm looking at it from the standpoint it was, and maybe still is in x-wing, a catch all of everything that doesn't fit.   And I think that has a potential to blow up in terms of broken combos, and get to a point where it is more effective to play scum than any other faction - that is not something I want to see happen. For a time in x-wing all I saw people play were scum builds.    

I feel something could happen similarly in Legion if not careful.  Having scum and villainy be a collection of various sub factions would eliminate this, possibly.   We also have to factor in what will disney/lucasfilm allow?    

Look.. if they want to not call it scum and Villainy and make it the Shadow Syndicate, that seems the best option.   You can have Maul, Savage Opress, Pykes, Black sun together, but it is in a unified theme.  This can be built with a better balance for the game, as well as overall visual style - cards, command tokens, etc.   

Either way, even IF scum becomes a faction - and I don't believe it needs to, it will be a LONG way off.   By then we may get more units shown operating under Crimson Dawn.

 

That is not my reasoning at all.  What I am saying is that we have a game that already has two factions that are matched unit for unit and two more on the way that will likely be the same.  Throwing a broken, crippled faction that you cannot list-build to the same extent as the others is just plain bad design.  AS for being a catch all, you mean like the Imperials that allow you to lump together Royal guards devoted to the emperor with two bounty hunters, a guy that died before the war even started, soldiers from the stormtrooper corps and random imperial navy comms troopers?  Or did you mean the Rebels that allow you to take an operative who stayed on Lothal for the entire rebellion and specifically said that the empire never came back?  Or perhaps the republic players that really really want gungans?  Crime syndicates work together a the time in the movies and cartoons.  You really think that the Crimson Dawn and Pyke Syndicate couldn't work together long enough to pull off a single platoon-sized job?  You think Jabba would be above hiring some mandalorian mercenaries?  If you are afraid of a catch-all from a mechanical standpoint, it really doesn't matter as long as the designers are designing them unit for unit like they have designed the other factions.  They will release a commander with a unit that synergises just like with the other 4 factions.

This thread is hilarious.  So many people weighing in to say "I don't want a scum faction and would never buy one, but here are a bunch of negative rule suggestions to weigh it down!"

Edited by devin.pike.1989

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‘Mercenary’ units are unfortunately a rules balancing challenge (dare I say nightmare) as every possible ally interaction has to be playtested.  What you tend to end up with is either a water-downed unit compared a faction equivalent or a must-include unit due to a mistake.  I can’t believe Legion’s small team has time to wade into this hornets nest.

However, if I were wearing the ‘big hat’ at FFG I’d ok scum/alternate faction armies if:

-They were released in 800pt box sets with a standardized list. Something like 1 Leader, 3-4 core (2 profiles),  1 op, 1 SF, 1 support.  

-They were sold as limited edition sets in LGS only for a set period of a single year, after which remaining stock would liquidated via the online store.  After the sale period ends, all the cards would officially posted as downloads.

-Each box set came with a series of 5 campaign missions minimum.

-Army would be tournament legal, but geared to collectors.

 

This format would allow for the release of corner-case factions with limited player appeal that don’t fit into the faction release schedule (Hondo pirates, Ewoks, Death Watch, etc.).  There would be some blow-back due to speculators hoarding them ofc, but it is likely the only business case that makes sense - and this assumes that the development team can even take on the project in the first place (which I doubt they can atm).

And if you miss that particular release you wanted, I’m sure the aftermarket sculptors will provide.

My 2 creds.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

This thread is hilarious.  So many people weighing in to say "I don't want a scum faction and would never buy one, but here are a bunch of negative rule suggestions to weigh it down!"

I think you misunderstand the misgivings.  Deep down we all want our particular wish list unit/faction, but business health will determine the longevity of Legion - not the cool factor.  Five players getting the Jawa mercenary armies they always dreamed of is not worth FFG sunsetting the game due to unprofitability.  So caution is reasonable here.

 

 

Edited by Kwatchi

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6 minutes ago, Kwatchi said:

I think you misunderstand the misgivings.  Deep down we all want our particular wish list unit/faction, but business health will determine the longevity of Legion - not the cool factor.  Five players getting the Jawa mercenary armies they always dreamed of is not worth FFG sunsetting the game due to unprofitability.  So caution is reasonable here.

 

 

I don't think that most of the people that are asking for a "Scum" army are looking to run all Jawas or anything like that.  They are looking to run armies like the Hutts, or Crimson Sun, or even the Shadow Collective.  These groups don't fit into the current Rebel/Empire or even the CIS/Republic, yet they play a huge role in Star Wars.  Part of the beginning of A New Hope, the Frist half of Return of the Jedi, parts of The Phantom Menace, and the entire Solo movie deal with this shady underworld.  The Hutts for example have enough units to cover all of the same slots that the Empire and Republic have with visually distinctive units with an unique play style.  Other criminal organizations can do the same thing.  The idea that people have about sharing corps units could be handled by releasing the Shadow Collective, which was a group comprised of most of the major crime families.

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