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@FFG Please lock this thread.

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2 hours ago, eeen said:

In this thread: people willing to become murderers argue with people uncomfortable with their willingness to murder people.

Who's willing to become a murderer in this thread?

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10 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

Why else do you have a gun?

Well, some people have them for hunting, some for having fun at the shooting range, and some for protection.  Some may have them for criminal purpose, too, but not everyone who has them is a criminal any more than everyone who owns a screwdriver is a criminal just because some criminals use screwdrivers.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Well, some people have them for hunting, some for having fun at the shooting range, and some for protection. 

"Protection" is a very milquetoast way of saying "murdering people I feel threatened by". 

And I _pray_ that you're not treating a toy store as a shooting range, or hunting at a toy store.

 

Edit to add:
I'm calling it "murder" whenever one human being kills another human being. I do not care what the law calls it.

Edited by Punning Pundit

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6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Well, some people have them for hunting, some for having fun at the shooting range, and some for protection.  Some may have them for criminal purpose, too, but not everyone who has them is a criminal any more than everyone who owns a screwdriver is a criminal just because some criminals use screwdrivers.

While the purpose of the tool matters (while you can kill with a steak knife or a screwdriver, neither were designed for it, unlike firearms), it's mostly moot if it isn't somehow needed at an X-Wing tournament. I doubt I'd let you in if you showed up with a chainsaw, a scythe or a crowbar either. Bring your plastic spaceships and leave your home improvement/defense gear at home, please.

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7 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

"Protection" is a very milquetoast way of saying "murdering people I feel threatened by". 

And I _pray_ that you're not treating a toy store as a shooting range, or hunting at a toy store.

Shooting someone in self defense doesn't fit any standard or legal definition of murder with which I'm aware.  Just how are you defining murder?

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9 minutes ago, DXCrazytrain said:

When are you going to take the hint and end this argument? You need to realize none of you are going to convince another of anything and all you're really doing is pissing off the people that are here for X-Wing.

tl:dr stfu

This is without a doubt the best post in this thread. I’m not even sure we can agree to disagree at this point, so why don’t we agree to stop carrying this thread on. It’s not ever going to change another’s mind and this is neither the time or the place for this discussion. 

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8 minutes ago, Vykk Draygo said:

This is without a doubt the best post in this thread. I’m not even sure we can agree to disagree at this point, so why don’t we agree to stop carrying this thread on. It’s not ever going to change another’s mind and this is neither the time or the place for this discussion. 

Well, I had been hoping we could at least straighten out the false belief that everyone who carries is either a murderer or a conspirator to commit murder, but since his definition of a murderer appears to include anyone who disagrees with him, I agree that there's little point in further discussion.

Though, to get back on topic, I'm still hopeful that the language of the rule was a mistake on FFG's part, and that they may eventually clarify it to keep out only brandishing and intimidation, and not law-abiding citizens. 

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1 hour ago, Punning Pundit said:

Why else do you have a gun?

You know, stopping someone who has intent to kill you isn't murder I'm just throwing that out there. I mean I really gotta' ask, 10-15 miles away from any police and you've got a guy who broke into your house and he's gonna' try and off you, what's better- being dead because you stood by a flawed belief or being alive because you got him before he could get you?

Or should everybody everywhere let the other guy throw the first and possibly fatal blow? You've gotta' realize the difference here man.

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10 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Though, to get back on topic, I'm still hopeful that the language of the rule was a mistake on FFG's part, and that they may eventually clarify it to keep out only brandishing and intimidation, and not law-abiding citizens. 

*Sigh* Casually reminding that US is one of 195 countries in the world you could play Xwing in and one of the few where casual, law-abiding carrying around of deadly equipment is even a thing, and this document has international reach. 

If you will, just assume it's there to stop the savage people of Europe from bringing in our longswords and trebuchets to the tournaments. 

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Just now, Ryfterek said:

*Sigh* Casually reminding that US is one of 195 countries in the world you could play Xwing in and one of the few where casual, law-abiding carrying around of deadly equipment is even a thing, and this document has international reach. 

If you will, just assume it's there to stop the savage people of Europe from bringing in our longswords and trebuchets to the tournaments. 

I guess I don't see why that couldn't also be left up to the laws of those countries.  Let the laws serve their purpose, and let the document just be a broader, "no bullying or intimidation," rule.  

If they're concerned about duplicating the law because of potential legal issues, they could throw in an overarching statement for the whole document like, "All tournament participants are expected to follow all local, regional, and national laws applicable at the location of the tournament.  Failure to do so will result in disqualification from the event and may result in legal action. "

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44 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

 If they're concerned about duplicating the law because of potential legal issues, they could throw in an overarching statement for the whole document like, "All tournament participants are expected to follow all local, regional, and national laws applicable at the location of the tournament.  Failure to do so will result in disqualification from the event and may result in legal action. "

Maybe FFG just don't want weapons at their tournaments? A lot of people would prefer to not live in an armed society. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DXCrazytrain said:

When are you going to take the hint and end this argument? You need to realize none of you are going to convince another of anything and all you're really doing is pissing off the people that are here for X-Wing.

tl:dr stfu

Well, you're talking to a guy who probably believes in Stand Your Ground.  I guess that applies to internet threads as well.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Does FFG not shut threads down over the weekend? This is getting to me on too deep a level. I'm pretty agnostic about the political issue in general but I definitely don't want to be talking about it here. I prefer to keep hobbies and politics as far removed from each other as possible. American politics have turned into a bit of a dystopian nightmare lately.

Anyway why can't FFG set the rules for their own events? I don't see it as pushing a political agenda or anything at all. They're just setting the rules.

The fact that this represents a controversy of any kind is unfathomable to me, and that's from someone with a very conservative background/upbringing.

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Please don't lock this, I am finding the discussion about whether people should be allowed to bring deadly ballistic weapons to tournaments (many of which I play in) very interesting and entirely relevant to the discussion of x-wing organized play. 

As I understand it, the 2nd amendment protects gun ownership of law-abiding citizens from being infringed on by the state/government, but it cannot stop private entities from enforcing their own rules regarding the conduct of who they choose to associate with based on the legal concept of "freedom of association" derived from the first amendment in the case NAACP v Alabama (1958). Basically FFG is exercising their right to freedom of association by saying "if you are going to bring weapons to our events, then we don't want to have anything to do with you and you are not welcome at our tournaments". In the same breath, they are also saying to stores, "if you allow players to bring weapons to our events (remember the store is the venue, but the event has FFG's name on it and they get to decide which stores get to host events), we don't want to be associated with you or represented by you and we will not sell our OP kits to you". 

Most states from what I've seen don't allow concealed carry on school property (a known exception being Alabama, God help you Barons), unless they are a police officer or security guard that has been designated by the school to do so, so I don't see why people with concealed carry licenses can't just treat game stores the same way. Don't bring your piece with you when you enter a school campus, and don't bring it with you into the LGS on OP day. 

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Posted (edited)

 

29 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Please don't lock this, I am finding the discussion about whether people should be allowed to bring deadly ballistic weapons to tournaments (many of which I play in) very interesting and entirely relevant to the discussion of x-wing organized play. 

When they do lock this, I hope it is with a very strong statement that FFG considers a gun a weapon and the CCH is DQ despite 2A:

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 9:01 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

Rule 3.7 (Agressive Behavior), point E:  if "a person brings a weapon to the event or threatens to bring one," it is grounds for disqualification.

And while I agree the discussion is relevant to tournament play in the United States only, the fact that clarification is needed is appalling. 

 

Edited by Darth Meanie

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5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Anyway why can't FFG set the rules for their own events? I don't see it as pushing a political agenda or anything at all. They're just setting the rules.

The question was never whether FFG can set such rules; it's always been whether they should.  Again, assuming the rule is even meant to apply to legal concealed carry (which the wording leaves in considerable doubt), it strikes me as odd that they would choose to make a rule that hits on a very contentious topic in American politics and which has nothing to do with any of their games if they're not trying to make a political point.

Of course, as @Darth Meanie helpfully quoted, the rule in question appears primarily concerned with aggressive behavior and threats, and it is thus my hope that FFG will swiftly clarify that that was their only concern with that rule.

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9 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

The question was never whether FFG can set such rules; it's always been whether they should.  Again, assuming the rule is even meant to apply to legal concealed carry (which the wording leaves in considerable doubt), it strikes me as odd that they would choose to make a rule that hits on a very contentious topic in American politics and which has nothing to do with any of their games if they're not trying to make a political point.

Of course, as @Darth Meanie helpfully quoted, the rule in question appears primarily concerned with aggressive behavior and threats, and it is thus my hope that FFG will swiftly clarify that that was their only concern with that rule.

There is allot of CYA wording in some sections (one section reads like a generic SJW list of aggrievements). The best thing to do is respect the wishes of the private party that controls the event you're attending. What you choose to do though is up to you.

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