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4 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Link to thread? 

No I get it if someone is like taking 5 minuetes to decide which I3 dial to reveal first then yeah that is taking too long. But if someone counted the MOV and realize they just need to not get shot at anymore and move away from combat till the time runs out that is perfectly legal. But on other threads that has been (rather presumptuously) called out as slow play

So far it seems like the ruling is against the former and permits the latter. 

Link to the post itself where they outline the exact issue. It's in the "Do games go to time more?" Thread.

 

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I wish they'd actually define how slow is too slow. Is spending five minutes planning your moves slow enough to warrant a warning? Or ten? Does it have to be (perceived to be) intentional? I know some board game players who suffer from massive AP and are a bore to play, but they don't actually do it on purpose.

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11 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Does it have to be (perceived to be) intentional?

It states pretty clearly that intentional slow play is cheating. Unintentional slow play is what the rules address.

Neither of these things is the same as non-engagement or fortressing, which will maybe be addressed in an X-Wing specific document or maybe won't

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

It is!  ;)

Rule 3.7 (Agressive Behavior), point E:  if "a person brings a weapon to the event or threatens to bring one," it is grounds for disqualification.

Hm...does this include concealed carry?  This seems a bit of an overreach by FFG to me, as I feel that should be up to the property owner.

If they just mean not having your weapon out nor displaying it in a threatening manner, I could get behind that.

Edited by JJ48

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Okapi said:

I wish they'd actually define how slow is too slow. Is spending five minutes planning your moves slow enough to warrant a warning? Or ten? Does it have to be (perceived to be) intentional? I know some board game players who suffer from massive AP and are a bore to play, but they don't actually do it on purpose.

How long an expected turn will take is situational depending on number of ships, their conditions and their positions in relation to the game state. As such, simply saying "five minutes" (for example) is not fair since sometimes it may be too long, and sometimes not long enough.

It's why it's worded to be something the judge can decide upon based on what they see.

Edit: And no, it may not necessarily be intentional to pick up a penalty if it's repeated, but something deemed as intentional picks up a penalty immediately.

Edited by LagJanson

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9 hours ago, WAC47 said:

 

This is a general, all games document.  Documents for specific games are incoming, per FFG OP’s social media posts. Its possible dice-related rules will appear in the X-wing specific document. 

Fair enough.  But there's dice in a bunch of games.  Destiny, Legion, Armada, here.  I also just remember that threads on what to do with cocked dice have often had cries of "FFG needs to makes some floor rules!" in them.

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1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

Fair enough.  But there's dice in a bunch of games.  Destiny, Legion, Armada, here.  I also just remember that threads on what to do with cocked dice have often had cries of "FFG needs to makes some floor rules!" in them.

I’m just saying be patient. They could very well be coming. No reason to start critiquing the floor rules until we have all of the floor rules. 

Also, the MAIN purpose of floor rules is to provide a system by which judges can enforce the rules. Thats what is provided here. It’s a massive step forward for FFG to cultivate a positive competitive atmosphere. 

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8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Link to thread? 

No I get it if someone is like taking 5 minuetes to decide which I3 dial to reveal first then yeah that is taking too long. But if someone counted the MOV and realize they just need to not get shot at anymore and move away from combat till the time runs out that is perfectly legal. But on other threads that has been (rather presumptuously) called out as slow play

So far it seems like the ruling is against the former and permits the latter. 

There's so many things which folks might call "slow play."

  • Actively stalling a decision.  You know what you want to do, but are pretending to agonize about it.  Per Floor Rules, this is cheating, but I'd hope judges are somewhat modest on distinguishing between active stalling and...
  • Plain Indecision.  Do I do the 5-K with Anakin and risk getting blocked (although it'll be amazing if it clears), or bug out?  Will I get out of arc if I Barrel Roll, or should I just focus?  There's a lot of decision points in this game, and there's advantages to many of them.  I feel like there's no way to precisely define how much indecision is acceptable before it crosses the line.  A lot of turns are trickier than others, and not all players are as quick as others.  Folks have different levels of experience, and that ought to be fine.
    • I mean, I know there's some experienced players who'll start pre-setting dials for the next turn quite early, maybe even before an opponent has finished moving.  If one of these quick players is complaining a normal person slow-playing, it's easy to imagine that it could be a ****-move.  Just as there is a line between indecision and stalling, there's a line between wanting play at a decent pace, and between making unreasonable demands about time.  Thankfully, there's a rule on that, too.  It's a minor unsporting conduct violation to demand a judge issue an penalty inappropriately.  A judge has to use their judgment.
  • Fleeing in the last few minutes.  Consensus is that this is fine, so long as it's done at a pretty fast pace, without much indecision.  Moving to deny your opponent shots is fine, so long as you're not denying them game turns to attempt to get shots.
  • A 'leisurely' approach vector, from anywhere between "1-forward to Victory!" to Phantoms hovering.  This one is a bit more controversial.  Personally, I'm fine with it so long as the pace is quick--I think it's the mirror image of fleeing at the end of a game.  However, I know that some degrees of this annoy a decent number of players.  I don't want to get too deep into it, except that the Floor Rules section on Slow Play seems to have nothing to do with either Fleeing or a Leisurely Approach.  Slow Play rules seem to be about pace only, which seems fine.

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32 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

I’m just saying be patient. They could very well be coming. No reason to start critiquing the floor rules until we have all of the floor rules. 

Also, the MAIN purpose of floor rules is to provide a system by which judges can enforce the rules. Thats what is provided here. It’s a massive step forward for FFG to cultivate a positive competitive atmosphere. 

Totally fair.  I'm not really calling the floor rules bad or anything, just that they don't address something that I know some number of folks wanted FFG to address, and specifically wanted them to address in floor rules.

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Posted (edited)

I've been to tournaments where due to the list I was facing, engagement under most situations wasn't advisable if I wanted to win.

For instance, Vess/Aggressor/QD vs two VCXs and an attack shuttle.

Loads of HP to chew through, and they had autoblasters. So I played it cautiously. stayed in open space and waited for the oppo to make a move. Turns ticked over at a good pace, but it was 40 minutes before anyone fired.

So now slow, or stalling, or even agonising. Just cautious.

Edited by SDCC

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3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Hm...does this include concealed carry?  This seems a bit of an overreach by FFG to me, as I feel that should be up to the property owner.

If they just mean not having your weapon out nor displaying it in a threatening manner, I could get behind that.

We'll see what comes from this. I always have an EDC knife on me because you never know when somebody might need a knife.

 

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, I know there's some experienced players who'll start pre-setting dials for the next turn quite early, maybe even before an opponent has finished moving.  If one of these quick players is complaining a normal person slow-playing, it's easy to imagine that it could be a ****-move.

I like to do this sometimes because the next move with some of my ships is obvious but the rules state the dials are to remain faceup until the next planning phase. Per RR 1.04: "A ship's revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship's ship card until the next Planning Phase." Even though I sometimes set dials early I make it a point to not pressure other players to play faster than they are comfortable. I want to afford all players I play against the time they need to make the decision they feel is best, because I know I am a slow player sometimes and can take a while to set dials.

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26 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

We'll see what comes from this. I always have an EDC knife on me because you never know when somebody might need a knife.

Good point.  Do pocket knives count?

It seems the intent of the rule is to prevent intimidation and threats, so it would be a shame to penalize someone who's legally carrying.

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2 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Now, instead of loosing my ship, I can just get straight DQ'd for lamenting to the dice gods after I roll 6 blank greens in a roll. Awesome.

Huh?

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4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Ah.  Best thing to do, then, is to control one's temper.

AH yeah, thanks for the tip mate. While I'm at it, should I also stop drinking excessively and spending way too much time on these forums?

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57 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

I like to do this sometimes because the next move with some of my ships is obvious but the rules state the dials are to remain faceup until the next planning phase. Per RR 1.04: "A ship's revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship's ship card until the next Planning Phase." Even though I sometimes set dials early I make it a point to not pressure other players to play faster than they are comfortable. I want to afford all players I play against the time they need to make the decision they feel is best, because I know I am a slow player sometimes and can take a while to set dials.

This is the important thing.

giphy.gif

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Posted (edited)

Wow. I thought that the rules were pretty sane and practical but now I realize that everything is on fire, everything is bad, and that thing that seemingly everyone has been asking for is the end of the world. Thank you, internet.

Edited by Dr Moneypants

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16 minutes ago, prauxim said:

AH yeah, thanks for the tip mate. While I'm at it, should I also stop drinking excessively and spending way too much time on these forums?

Drinking excessively, probably (especially during a tournament).

Though, something tells me your question was sarcastic, and you'd prefer to act as if you have no control over your own actions and that it's unreasonable for FFG to require people to control themselves. 

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1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Good point.  Do pocket knives count?

It seems the intent of the rule is to prevent intimidation and threats, so it would be a shame to penalize someone who's legally carrying.

Carrying a weapon into a game store is always a threat. The fact that the law allows you to be making a threat to everyone in the game store is secondary to you having chosen to be making a threat to everyone in that store. 

I don't feel safe in an environment where any altercation can escalate to deadliness as soon as one weapons carrying person decides to pull out their tool. You don't feel safe either, or else you'd leave the gun behind. 

So do us all a favor and leave the gun behind or stay out of the toy store. 

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6 hours ago, Okapi said:

I wish they'd actually define how slow is too slow. 

If they do that, then folks will take a bit less time than is defined as "slow", and be able to cheat while staying within the rules. 

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