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Why does Hyperspace exist?

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12 minutes ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Also this whole hyperspace is easier on new players is a bit bunk. In 1.0 you got thrown to the wolves sure, but you learn and the curve isn't that bad. I started with most wanted a starter set and a hwk... And then a g1a, I got beat slot early on but I got BETTER, collecting ships and upgrades that fell into what I liked to play (high ps alpha strike/joust and I will always love harpoons!!!!) 

Now a person starting out still has to get a starter set and 2-3 expansions. But they are still thrown to the wolves as people KNOW what those ships can do and will still have a larger pool of ships and options then our brave just starting out Timmy. So they are still going to be smashed either way in competitive. 

I think you misunderstand the argument.  It wasn't that Hyperspace was meant to be easier in the sense of, "less complex and easier to understand," but rather in the sense of, "cheaper, because there are fewer ships to choose from."  Of course, that becomes less and less relevant the more ships and upgrades get added to Hyperspace, hence part of the disappointment in the format.

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8 hours ago, stootchmaster said:

I never played first edition.  This is the problem.  The game is in a second edition, yet still caters to first edition players at the expense of new players by giving them an unfair advantage in Extended Format.  Hyperspace should be the only format for second edition games.   Am I really the ONLY new player on these forums?  I can't possibly be the only person here to see the built in unfair advantage inherent in the existence of Extended format?

But, like I said. . .I REALLY like this game, so I'll just have to change course a bit and invest in one of the new factions, even though I really would rather fly Empire. 

:huh:

So what is unfair, you don't have every ship? The only advantage I could see from that is not having every upgrade card (which I thought the App was supposed to make that a non-issue) but that would be the problem with 2nd edition as well. As for miniatures games it is best to have the older models stay compatible with the new edition. You won't find a miniature game that says we have a new edition so your models no longer work because no one would play the next edition. Heck no one would even play that game if they knew that the models which are expensive and take up space would become worthless the next edition comes out.

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Posted (edited)

I’m pretty new to X-Wing, but my expectation was Hyperspace would be a limited format that only included ships currently available on store shelves. In other words, a format only for ships and cards that have been released in 2.0 packaging, not including conversion kit exclusives; the stuff that anyone can easily buy and put on the table.

At some point, it would make sense for rereleased ships and cards, plus stuff from the new factions, to rotate into Extended. However, when they added ships that hadn’t been rereleased yet to the legacy factions, well, that just didn’t make much sense to me. That’s when it stopped being as accessible and new player-friendly.

Luckily I just fly Republic, though I feel for my fellow newbies who prefer Scum, Rebels or the Empire.

Edited by astronautcowboy

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Hyperspace as 2.0 rerelease only was annoying to a long established player, especially in the earliest waves. I recall being quite the complainer about it in those days when no one was doing extended because OP was Hyperspace and there was 2-3 ships a faction.

Nowadays, I don’t get the point of Hyperspace when it doesn’t really solve the barrier to entry issues everyone sold me on for the Hyperspace format. It makes more sense to at least try and go back to “2.0 only” so we have some reason for Hyperspace.

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On 7/26/2019 at 10:52 AM, stootchmaster said:

I never played first edition.  This is the problem.  The game is in a second edition, yet still caters to first edition players at the expense of new players by giving them an unfair advantage in Extended Format.  Hyperspace should be the only format for second edition games.   Am I really the ONLY new player on these forums?  I can't possibly be the only person here to see the built in unfair advantage inherent in the existence of Extended format?

But, like I said. . .I REALLY like this game, so I'll just have to change course a bit and invest in one of the new factions, even though I really would rather fly Empire. 

I am also a new player on these forums and currently only own 2.0 stuff.

That said I strongly disagree with you. I am glad there is an extended format where players with a large 1.0 collection can still use them in a competitive environment. I would be pissed of by FFG if I would have had a large collection from one of there games and basically just told that it was useless now even though the game continues.

It would have cost the community many players and that would have damaged the game much more then players having an perceived edge in one of the formats.

Hyperspace apparently is the main competitive format so no problem,  but besides that if you want you can still be competitive in extended. There are hyper space legal lists that are competitive in extended and if you really want to play extended fully you could always chase the 1.0 ships and conversion kits. 

What I dislike way more is that there are currently ships in Hyperspace that are not released yet in 2.0

I would love to also field Soontir in my empire lists, but buying a conversion kit and 1.0 interceptor just for that is a but expensive. 

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Posted (edited)

If I understand correctly, the reason they first allowed ships that hadn't been re-released into Hyperspace was for the Sequel Trilogy factions. After all, when they were released with wave 2, they each had only 1-2 ships (poor FO faction would have had a rough go of it with just the TIE/fo). Some of these still haven't been re-released (Resistance Falcon, Starfortress, Upsilon). Yet they are legal in Hyperspace so that those factions could compete.

I think the devs went a little far when they added the Viper and Interceptor. Maybe they were originally slated for a rerelease that had to be pushed back? Maybe they wanted to be "fair" by not treating OT factions "differently" than the newer factions that now had some un-rereleased ships? Who knows. Either way, you can still play any faction at a high competitive level in hyperspace without buying conversion kits. It's just disappointing that it wasn't kept to 2.0 releases only.

I do expect that the next Hyperspace adjustment will see some things rotate out (at least for the OT factions). I can't imagine the format getting much bigger and maintaining a very meaningful distinction from extended.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Posted (edited)
On 7/27/2019 at 4:54 AM, ScummyRebel said:

Hyperspace as 2.0 rerelease only was annoying to a long established player, especially in the earliest waves. I recall being quite the complainer about it in those days when no one was doing extended because OP was Hyperspace and there was 2-3 ships a faction.

Nowadays, I don’t get the point of Hyperspace when it doesn’t really solve the barrier to entry issues everyone sold me on for the Hyperspace format. It makes more sense to at least try and go back to “2.0 only” so we have some reason for Hyperspace.

As I said if they just ban certain pilots for models that are not released in 2.0 yet but still allow for the option to play those models then there could be some sort of hyperextended format. 

I tried to make one I called The MAW which was exactly that. Some power builds from extended such as TIE Phantoms were reduced to "Echo" being the only pilot in the format while others that need the numbers such as like Upsilon Shuttles have one unique pilot and one non-unique pilot legal. And everything that had a 2.0 release was legal (as well as any upgrades from hyperspace). 

It was the best compromise I could come up with, but I have learned that often compromises just means opposition from both sides of the argument and acceptance from none.

Edited by Marinealver

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If they didn't have Extended,  I would've quit the game.  I don't do tournaments and if I didn't have tools to play my ships, I would have been gone.  There are enough casual players out there that would've been shafted if they didn't do Extended.  

I feel bad for the players whose local scene is nothing, but tournament players who refuse to play Extended.   I have heard from so many people saying, "I can't wait till x ship is out!  It's my favorite!" I always post that it is out and fly what you want.  The answer is always that people in their area refuse to play Extended as they are constantly working on tournaments.    Sounds boring to me!

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43 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

If they didn't have Extended,  I would've quit the game.  I don't do tournaments and if I didn't have tools to play my ships, I would have been gone.  There are enough casual players out there that would've been shafted if they didn't do Extended.  

I feel bad for the players whose local scene is nothing, but tournament players who refuse to play Extended.   I have heard from so many people saying, "I can't wait till x ship is out!  It's my favorite!" I always post that it is out and fly what you want.  The answer is always that people in their area refuse to play Extended as they are constantly working on tournaments.    Sounds boring to me!

Forever practicing for the next tournament is something I ultimately found to be exhausting, infuriating, and limiting.

I don't have anything on the horizon bar the next wave release now. So I make builds that look fun or feel like they'll scratch an itch. It's working out far more nicely.

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5 hours ago, SDCC said:

Forever practicing for the next tournament is something I ultimately found to be exhausting, infuriating, and limiting.

Agreed, although I do get the people like Jack Mooney and Phil GC who have found what they love and play it almost exclusively. They're having fun and playing the game the way they like.

But as someone who never plays OP events (or hasn't yet anyway) the only-competitive mindset seems like it would just make me hate the game.

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On 7/26/2019 at 6:40 PM, Marinealver said:

:huh:

So what is unfair, you don't have every ship? The only advantage I could see from that is not having every upgrade card (which I thought the App was supposed to make that a non-issue) but that would be the problem with 2nd edition as well. As for miniatures games it is best to have the older models stay compatible with the new edition. You won't find a miniature game that says we have a new edition so your models no longer work because no one would play the next edition. Heck no one would even play that game if they knew that the models which are expensive and take up space would become worthless the next edition comes out.

Games Workshop has done this a few times. There's an inevitable period of backlash before enough people fall in line and it happens anyway. I have an enormous Eldar war host for Epic which will apparently be utterly useless for the new edition as they're changing the scales.

6 hours ago, heychadwick said:

If they didn't have Extended,  I would've quit the game.  I don't do tournaments and if I didn't have tools to play my ships, I would have been gone.  There are enough casual players out there that would've been shafted if they didn't do Extended.  

I feel bad for the players whose local scene is nothing, but tournament players who refuse to play Extended.   I have heard from so many people saying, "I can't wait till x ship is out!  It's my favorite!" I always post that it is out and fly what you want.  The answer is always that people in their area refuse to play Extended as they are constantly working on tournaments.    Sounds boring to me!

Same. Hyperspace hasn't even been particularly common around my area, even for events. There's been a few, but most of the new players have either bought old collections and a conversion kit, or just bought one of the prequel/sequel factions, so it hasn't made a major difference to them. Surplus upgrades from conversions or expansions are passed around readily. The attraction for players in Extended over Hyperspace isn't to get one over on a newbie, it's just pure experimentation. In Hyperspace format, you have five or six ship options per faction. For new players, that's a fair bit to explore. For seasoned players, much of that is explored territory, even within the setting of revised rules and abilities. Folks who have been playing the game for years use Extended format to try out strange things that would never make it to an event table, not because they're not Hyperspace compatible, but because they're not optimised for tournaments.

tl;dr Hyperspace is a tournament setting. Extended is a sandbox. You have all the toys for a Hyperspace setting, but you don't need all the toys for a sandbox.

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6 hours ago, SDCC said:

Forever practicing for the next tournament is something I ultimately found to be exhausting, infuriating, and limiting.

I don't have anything on the horizon bar the next wave release now. So I make builds that look fun or feel like they'll scratch an itch. It's working out far more nicely.

Yep, I’m really happy with the “Filthy Casuals” group I’ve helped form at the local game store. We are experimenting and flying with random stuff. Some of it is sorta meta, nothing is direct copy, and we have new lists each week unless we didn’t have time to build a new one.

There is no tourney practice here.

 

7 hours ago, heychadwick said:

If they didn't have Extended,  I would've quit the game.  I don't do tournaments and if I didn't have tools to play my ships, I would have been gone.  There are enough casual players out there that would've been shafted if they didn't do Extended.  

Same. I’m glad for the extended opportunities that have cropped up while the tourney crowd went hyperspace.

Although what I am most pumped about is with the scenario format coming to epic, there’s legitimate hype within my gaming group for epic xwing where that wasn’t a big interest back in 1.0 “it’s xwing but bigger.” I’m hoping to hijack a night a month to steal some of the casual standard players into epic with the big mission box. My capital ships are eager to get out of the box too!

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30 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But as someone who never plays OP events (or hasn't yet anyway) the only-competitive mindset seems like it would just make me hate the game.

There are lots of reasons for playing in OP events. Trying to win them is something only a small percentage of people are doing.

I go to events to enjoy myself, meeting old friends, making new friends, and playing games. Usually featuring some sort of odd jank.

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3 hours ago, NakedDex said:

Games Workshop has done this a few times. There's an inevitable period of backlash before enough people fall in line and it happens anyway. I have an enormous Eldar war host for Epic which will apparently be utterly useless for the new edition as they're changing the scales.

...

Yeah I was one of the many that fell out of line. They didn't lose any money with less people buying their game, they just charging more per model so the people that are left are paying more to make up for people like me who decided to go a different route.

Thing is that is the common trend for just about any popular game franchise. The publishers are making more money off of fewer players. 

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3 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

The publishers are making more money off of fewer players. 

They're really not though. Once you take into account inflation, it's a pretty similar amount to what they were charging back in 2012, and medium and large ships are affected by even less. Some ships like the Silencer got cheaper, while others like the Decimator remained the same.

Not to mention now that "chase" cards and "fix" packs are less of a thing, there's not such an impetus to "keep buying to keep up." Everything is good, really. More buying is mainly for more options.

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1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

Yeah I was one of the many that fell out of line. They didn't lose any money with less people buying their game, they just charging more per model so the people that are left are paying more to make up for people like me who decided to go a different route.

Thing is that is the common trend for just about any popular game franchise. The publishers are making more money off of fewer players. 

Part of that is the rise of tabletop gaming in recent years providing more competition, which is fine. The slightly shady advantage taking in that is less so. GW lost me for that reason a looooong time ago.

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1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

They're really not though. Once you take into account inflation, it's a pretty similar amount to what they were charging back in 2012, and medium and large ships are affected by even less. Some ships like the Silencer got cheaper, while others like the Decimator remained the same.

Not to mention now that "chase" cards and "fix" packs are less of a thing, there's not such an impetus to "keep buying to keep up." Everything is good, really. More buying is mainly for more options.

I wasn't talking about FFG, I was talking about Games Workshop. But if looking at other industries (especially the Video Game Industry) no other publisher is immune to said corruption. So far FFG hasn't been anywhere near as notorious as Hasbro or GW. 

14 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Part of that is the rise of tabletop gaming in recent years providing more competition, which is fine. The slightly shady advantage taking in that is less so. GW lost me for that reason a looooong time ago.

Well having your products go up in price to where the hobby is not competing with the alternatives anymore doesn't help. Seriously I need to find that MBA who came up with the "premium price model" and lets just say, he would be better off frozen in carbonite. 

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15 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Yep, I’m really happy with the “Filthy Casuals” group I’ve helped form at the local game store. We are experimenting and flying with random stuff. Some of it is sorta meta, nothing is direct copy, and we have new lists each week unless we didn’t have time to build a new one.

There is no tourney practice here.

...

Same. I’m glad for the extended opportunities that have cropped up while the tourney crowd went hyperspace.

Although what I am most pumped about is with the scenario format coming to epic, there’s legitimate hype within my gaming group for epic xwing where that wasn’t a big interest back in 1.0 “it’s xwing but bigger.” I’m hoping to hijack a night a month to steal some of the casual standard players into epic with the big mission box. My capital ships are eager to get out of the box too!

Glad you were able to form a local group.  It's hard and before we really split, we lost a lot of players to the tournament types.    About 1/3 that joined soon quit.   Now we have the store that is the Casual Store.  I'm happy. 

OK...just to set you straight on FFG's new verbiage.  Epic used to mean the huge ships.  It doesn't anymore.  With FFG coming out with Epic Battles...Epic means the 11 scenarios from that set, that may or may not include huge ships.   Huge ships is what we used to call Epic.  

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1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

OK...just to set you straight on FFG's new verbiage.  Epic used to mean the huge ships.  It doesn't anymore.  With FFG coming out with Epic Battles...Epic means the 11 scenarios from that set, that may or may not include huge ships.   Huge ships is what we used to call Epic.  

Oh, I do understand that. It’s that scenario box I’m the most excited for (though you can bet I’m bringing huge shipsninto those missions when I can). 

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