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Kieransi

Why does Hyperspace exist?

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Hyperspace exists so that players like me that started 4 months ago can actually have FUN without having to deal with an entitled player base that basically blackmailed FFG into letting them keep their overpowered toys in competition instead of starting with a clean slate.  As far as I'm concerned, Extended is the version that needs to be phased out.  When most games come out with a Second Edition, it means exactly that.  It's a NEW edition.  Yes, yes. . .I understand.  You spent a lot of money.  Good for you.  Play First Edition.

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@Kieransi I’ve appreciated your attempts to be open to Hyperspace as a format. So a bit of food for thought on the latest updates to the format. We’re still inside a year of the new edition. That being said we are having some issues identifying why certain ships are seeing limited to no play in competitive formats. A-Wings, Intercepters and Star vipers as a whole. To really understand why before these ships get released if they want to make changes outside of points and or add pilots/pilot abilities a point of reference is needed. Putting them in Hyperspace now gives them both a reason to be used and also allows for some data mining to happen. Everyone was saying points or lack of options is the issues. Yet even after adjusting the points and trying to force out “better options” they are still not being utilized in a global sense. Sure someone here and there is making use but its not enough to go on.  

This feels more of a change for necessity than a random choice. Does it hurt some newer players who may not have those options at this point? Yes, however to ensure when things do roll out FFG needs better analysis now. This could lead to things in changes to modifications based on Agility which are commonly not used due to ridiculous cost to benefit ratios. They can see/hear what’s being said but they need actual data to properly act on it.

@stootchmaster not sure why the harshness of your comments. Quite honestly most players want to expand the game and recognize the need to be new player friendly. Certainly some bad eggs who make that not so fun. Calling a veteran group entitled feels a bit much. Most any other Miniatures war game has things in place for older models that were in a previous set even if they are no longer in circulation. I would also ask you to be open to the above statements as to why some changes maybe taking place.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ronu said:

 

@stootchmaster not sure why the harshness of your comments. . . .

Yeah, I guess I WAS a bit harsh, but I feel that the Extended version of X-Wing is an unwelcoming environment for new players.  It's not the PEOPLE that are unwelcoming, mind you.  Everyone I've met has been great.  It's the insanity of having two different versions of the same game running at once.  Consider:  I've just played in my first two "official" tournaments last month.  The first was Hyperspace where I went 3 wins and 2 losses.  Not bad for my first time out!  The second Tourney was Extended and I was totally devastated 4 losses to 1 win. . .with the SAME exact list. 

In order for me to have been competitive at all in the second tournament I would have to go to a third party to buy ships not found for sale at my LGS and then buy a conversion kit to make any use of them.  To me, it's beyond rude to expect new players to have to jump through hoops like that.  Even when I've asked for some advice on list building, 90% of the time I am given advice by people online to use ships that ARE NOT FOR SALE IN STORES!  I mostly play Empire.  It does me no good for someone to tell me to use a "Palp Shuttle" as a support ship when THERE ARE NO "PALP SHUTTLES" FOR SALE WITHOUT GOING TO A THIRD PARTY.   It's fine that YOU have a "Palp Shuttle" or a "Whisper", but where are new players supposed to get these things?

Simply put, it's an unfair advantage against new players and FFG should not have let it happen.   

That said, I love this game and I'll stick with it as new things come out that will make the playing field a bit more even.  I'll probably just switch to one of the new factions so that I can get new ships at the same time as everyone else.  It's kind of a shame that's the best solution because I like the Original Trilogy ships a lot more than the prequels.

 

Edited by stootchmaster

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In regards to the existence of Hyperspace format, given the over abundance of broken card combos that were ported over in some fashion from 1.0 (to say nothing of the broken ones created by 2.0) I would push for a limited format regardless of what ships were in it.
 

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5 hours ago, impspy said:

In regards to the existence of Hyperspace format, given the over abundance of broken card combos that were ported over in some fashion from 1.0 (to say nothing of the broken ones created by 2.0) I would push for a limited format regardless of what ships were in it.
 

I just want all the models are in, I don't care about which secondary weapon or which pilot is out. X-wing has always been a miniatures game to me and not a card game. Ban the cards, not the models.

10 hours ago, stootchmaster said:

Hyperspace exists so that players like me that started 4 months ago can actually have FUN without having to deal with an entitled player base that basically blackmailed FFG into letting them keep their overpowered toys in competition instead of starting with a clean slate.  As far as I'm concerned, Extended is the version that needs to be phased out.  When most games come out with a Second Edition, it means exactly that.  It's a NEW edition.  Yes, yes. . .I understand.  You spent a lot of money.  Good for you.  Play First Edition.

X-wing was fun even in first edition otherwise FFG would have never made a 2nd edition. If it wasn't fun odds are you made it that way not FFG.

As for 2.0 you will get the same problems that 1st edition had. And if you thought net-listing was bad, in hyperspace it will be even more common as less components means it is easier to solve. Heck with hyperspace format 2 of those factions can only be played if you had the conversion kit and the 1st edition models. So to say that Hyperspace allows new players to enjoy X-wing without having to get the older models has already fallen through the floor.

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6 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

X-wing was fun even in first edition

Well, that's a matter of opinion.

6 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Heck with hyperspace format 2 of those factions can only be played if you had the conversion kit and the 1st edition models. So to say that Hyperspace allows new players to enjoy X-wing without having to get the older models has already fallen through the floor.

I think much of this falls under the disconnect between what players wanted from Hyperspace, what FFG promised in Hyperspace, how players interpreted the concept of Hyperspace, and what Hyperspace actually ended up becoming. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I think much of this falls under the disconnect between what players wanted from Hyperspace, what FFG promised in Hyperspace, how players interpreted the concept of Hyperspace, and what Hyperspace actually ended up becoming. 

What hyperspace really is after all is said and done: confusing.

It doesn't really matter; it is what it is. It's the predominant competitive format, though not exclusively. It keeps a curated and rotated metagame going that is changed more often than points costs are (if I understand correctly). It may or may not feature more iconic ships and/or ships that have been rereleased more often. It may or may not be easier for new players to get started with. It probably does help new players get into competitive play more easily, at least until the rereleases are finished.

It will continue to exist for a long time as the "standard" OP format with Extended being reserved mainly to SOS and the all-bets-are-off World Championships. It will change, and it will probably increase in size. As the newer factions get more toys that can be rotated out without crippling them, we will probably see that happen as well. Iconic things will probably stick around there for longer, but I doubt we'll see all ship frames ever be legal in Hyperspace at the same time, even with pilot restrictions.

I'm a big advocate of Extended. Go ahead and play as much Hyperspace as you want to prepare for you competitive events, but don't forget to play with all your toys when you're not competing. You want everything to be usable and it is under the official rules. That doesn't mean you can always take everything to all OP events every season. Give the others some love in the off-times.

Just my two cents.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, stootchmaster said:

Hyperspace exists so that players like me that started 4 months ago can actually have FUN without having to deal with an entitled player base that basically blackmailed FFG into letting them keep their overpowered toys in competition instead of starting with a clean slate.  As far as I'm concerned, Extended is the version that needs to be phased out.  When most games come out with a Second Edition, it means exactly that.  It's a NEW edition.  Yes, yes. . .I understand.  You spent a lot of money.  Good for you.  Play First Edition.

Blackmailed... Ok, I think you're incorrectly assigning a lot of blame onto the legacy playerbase. FFG had formulated and solidified their plans for second edition including conversion kits without any input at all from the community. FFG never asked any of us what we'd like to see from a 2.0 conversion, they just dropped it on all of us like a sack of bricks. While I would agree that FFG probably would have lost even more players without creating conversion kits for old product (which by the way is something FFG had already done for both Descent and MoM 2.0 edition which did not competitive play at all), to then flip that and say that the players are to blame for a decision that FFG unilaterally made is a huge stretch. 

Secondly, as others have pointed out, Hyperspace doesn't actually help anyone that wants to avoid buying 1st edition content and conversion kits. The best pilots for the best crew carrier in Rebels (and imo still the best anchor ship for any HS Rebel list) are only in the conversion kit. The most popular Imperial Ace in HS still has no 2.0 release. Same for the most popular HS Ace in Scum. First Order 2.0 only players have to buy 1.0 Upsilons and SFs if they want to be competitive with play the best performing list of that faction in hyperspace. Only the 2 brand new factions have full 2.0 access to their fleets without having to buy a conversion kit or 1.0 product. 

And here's the thing about 1.0 product. The only reason it's impossible to find is because FFG chose to stop printing it. Nobody put a gun to their head, there's no U.S. or U.N. law that says FFG can't keep printing 1.0 product until it's had a 2.0 release. That was their decision for whatever reason, and yet they keep adding ships to Hyperspace that haven't been in print for almost a year now and aren't going to see a 2.0 release for at least another 6 months if not longer. It was a choice based purely on improving the optics of 2.0 at the expense of new players. 

Also, to the claim that Hyperspace players can't compete in Extended with Hyperspace lists, I can show you many, many, many examples from last season and this season of Hyperspace legal lists doing very well in Extended tournaments large and small. I was doing great in Extended with Rebel Beef which again was a hyperspace legal list. The fact that the the strongest list in Extended quad phantoms was so dominating was just because the phantoms were broken, not because extended > hyperspace. Scyks are an extended only list but that doesn't mean they would stand a chance against a hyperspace Rebel Beef list. 

I have come to terms with Hyperspace existing, probably because it feels a lot closer to Extended at this point with all the new factions and new options for the OG 3, but I think FFG needs to do an overhaul to bring it back into line with the goal  you stated of only allowing 2.0 released product (with an exception for the smaller factions), which also includes pilots and upgrades. It feels like such a huge oversight to have Soontir and Guri in the format and then skip their ships for 3 waves of releases.

Edited by Tvboy

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, stootchmaster said:

In order for me to have been competitive at all in the second tournament I would have to go to a third party to buy ships not found for sale at my LGS and then buy a conversion kit to make any use of them.  To me, it's beyond rude to expect new players to have to jump through hoops like that. 

I think the point the OP was making is that this isn't the case in Hyperspace anymore. With the Rebel A-Wing, some of U-Wing pilots, TIE Bombers, TIE Interceptors, the StarViper, the StarFortress, Resistance Falcon, TIE/sf, and Upsilon shuttle in Hyperspace, there are several options not available to newcomers like yourself without a conversion kit or two. So why have Hyperspace, which is specifically marketed as only featuring cards and ships that have been re-released, when it actually doesn't do that?

Edited by 5050Saint

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The limitations of Hyperspace make it a lot easier to come to grips with new factions (especially the ****** weirdo CiS) without overheating against the vast wealth of options available in extended

Now why it's marketed in such a way, idk. For why it exists, though, the limitations on list building make it easier to focus on adjusting to new tactics since you have less insanity to adapt to  

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26 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

First Order 2.0 only players have to buy 1.0 ... SFs if they want to be competitive with that faction in hyperspace.

 

This is no longer true. The TIE/sf was released with Wave 4 with all of the exact same pilots as the Conversion kit. The same with the Silencer and TIE/fo (from wave 2). The only First Order ship from 1.0 not yet released is the Upsilon, and frankly, you don't need it to be competitive in Hyperspace.

As for FO upgrades, SFG and Fanatical are in the TIE/sf and TIE/fo expansions respectively, while the rest either can't be taken by the released ships (no crew slots, not large ships) or would be useless (no coordinate or jam).

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5 minutes ago, Nspace said:

As for FO upgrades, SFG and Fanatical are in the TIE/sf and TIE/fo expansions respectively, while the rest either can't be taken by the released ships (no crew slots, not large ships) or would be useless (no coordinate or jam)

Erm… The combo tends to be expensive but Squad leader + Bio-Hexa works...

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Hyperspace is the worst idea that could happen to this game. It fragmented already small player base and restricted meta at the most common tournaments - namely regionals.

X-Wing is not MtG where you have such a big base of cards and players that there is place for many formats.

Look at iccv ranking of the best selling collectible miniature games - in past times X-Wing 1.0 was at the top of the list, new edition is nowhere close to that.

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54 minutes ago, Nspace said:

This is no longer true. The TIE/sf was released with Wave 4 with all of the exact same pilots as the Conversion kit. The same with the Silencer and TIE/fo (from wave 2). The only First Order ship from 1.0 not yet released is the Upsilon, and frankly, you don't need it to be competitive in Hyperspace.

OK for some reason I was only aware of the Silencer getting released in Wave 4, thanks. My post has been corrected.

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11 hours ago, stootchmaster said:

Yeah, I guess I WAS a bit harsh, but I feel that the Extended version of X-Wing is an unwelcoming environment for new players.  It's not the PEOPLE that are unwelcoming, mind you.  Everyone I've met has been great.  It's the insanity of having two different versions of the same game running at once.  Consider:  I've just played in my first two "official" tournaments last month.  The first was Hyperspace where I went 3 wins and 2 losses.  Not bad for my first time out!  The second Tourney was Extended and I was totally devastated 4 losses to 1 win. . .with the SAME exact list. 

In order for me to have been competitive at all in the second tournament I would have to go to a third party to buy ships not found for sale at my LGS and then buy a conversion kit to make any use of them.  To me, it's beyond rude to expect new players to have to jump through hoops like that.  Even when I've asked for some advice on list building, 90% of the time I am given advice by people online to use ships that ARE NOT FOR SALE IN STORES!  I mostly play Empire.  It does me no good for someone to tell me to use a "Palp Shuttle" as a support ship when THERE ARE NO "PALP SHUTTLES" FOR SALE WITHOUT GOING TO A THIRD PARTY.   It's fine that YOU have a "Palp Shuttle" or a "Whisper", but where are new players supposed to get these things?

Simply put, it's an unfair advantage against new players and FFG should not have let it happen.   

That said, I love this game and I'll stick with it as new things come out that will make the playing field a bit more even.  I'll probably just switch to one of the new factions so that I can get new ships at the same time as everyone else.  It's kind of a shame that's the best solution because I like the Original Trilogy ships a lot more than the prequels.

 

Appreciate you stepping back in the severity of your original comment and expanding on your experience which makes up your opinions.

A few things to keep in mind. Extended was always going to happen. If FFG didn’t immediately embrace it it was going to be done locally. Too many players who had things they would want to use in a competitive setting. So better for them to take the route they have to keep support of the already built player base. 

As for list building advice. Two recommendations. One realize you need to post any building limitations up front so there is an idea of what is being worked with. 2: realize about 1/2 the responses you may get didn’t fully read your post just saw help me and put down whatever sounds good to them. You’ll figure out who’s advice you like getting and who isn’t worth much. If you tag someone specific most a really good at seeing you called them out and will respond if they have thoughts about your question for them. 

 

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3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I think it’s so they can get between planets faster... that way you’re not just watching a movie about a really REALLY long road trip. 

I dunno tho...

I still don't know why Y-wings need an astromech when B-wings can just make the jump without one, no problem, and lets not forget about the poor TIE-Fighters. 

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I don't think we've been given a clear idea of what Hyperspace is, so either FFg doesn't know either, or they're (surprise!) distinctly ill-adept at customer communication. 

At this point, we should know. 

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21 hours ago, stootchmaster said:

Hyperspace exists so that players like me that started 4 months ago can actually have FUN without having to deal with an entitled player base that basically blackmailed FFG into letting them keep their overpowered toys in competition instead of starting with a clean slate.  As far as I'm concerned, Extended is the version that needs to be phased out.  When most games come out with a Second Edition, it means exactly that.  It's a NEW edition.  Yes, yes. . .I understand.  You spent a lot of money.  Good for you.  Play First Edition.

to clarify my stance, I totally agree with you on all of this, and that's why I'm sad that hyperspace now includes TIE Interceptors, TIE Bombers, StarVipers, A-Wings, and some other pilots only available in extended. I'm worried that hyperspace isn't really going to be all that much more welcoming for new players if it continues down the current path and so it kind of feels like a whole bunch of added fuss for nothing. 

I really really like the idea of hyperspace and I'm sad that it's not living up to what it was supposed to be, and as a result I'm worried about its future  as a competitive format

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Marinealver said:

X-wing was fun even in first edition otherwise FFG would have never made a 2nd edition. If it wasn't fun odds are you made it that way not FFG.

 

I never played first edition.  This is the problem.  The game is in a second edition, yet still caters to first edition players at the expense of new players by giving them an unfair advantage in Extended Format.  Hyperspace should be the only format for second edition games.   Am I really the ONLY new player on these forums?  I can't possibly be the only person here to see the built in unfair advantage inherent in the existence of Extended format?

But, like I said. . .I REALLY like this game, so I'll just have to change course a bit and invest in one of the new factions, even though I really would rather fly Empire. 

Edited by stootchmaster

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2 hours ago, Kieransi said:

to clarify my stance, I totally agree with you on all of this, and that's why I'm sad that hyperspace now includes TIE Interceptors, TIE Bombers, StarVipers, A-Wings, and some other pilots only available in extended. I'm worried that hyperspace isn't really going to be all that much more welcoming for new players if it continues down the current path and so it kind of feels like a whole bunch of added fuss for nothing. 

I really really like the idea of hyperspace and I'm sad that it's not living up to what it was supposed to be, and as a result I'm worried about its future  as a competitive format

Exactly this ! I don't see the point anymore of Hyperspace being a more restricted, friendly format if they keep adding ships wave after wave and nothing is rotated out ? At this speed, in a couple of waves, Hyperspace will be no different than Extended.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, stootchmaster said:

The game is in a second edition, yet still caters to first edition players at the expense of new players by giving them an unfair advantage in Extended Format. 

Surely that's an argument for having both formats. That way, players with big collections from first edition can still use all their ships in Extended, while new players- like yourself- can be competitive in Hyperspace.

The execution may be confused, but the concept isn't inherently bad.

Edited by Dobbs Mottley
Lousy spelling!

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Also this whole hyperspace is easier on new players is a bit bunk. In 1.0 you got thrown to the wolves sure, but you learn and the curve isn't that bad. I started with most wanted a starter set and a hwk... And then a g1a, I got beat slot early on but I got BETTER, collecting ships and upgrades that fell into what I liked to play (high ps alpha strike/joust and I will always love harpoons!!!!) 

Now a person starting out still has to get a starter set and 2-3 expansions. But they are still thrown to the wolves as people KNOW what those ships can do and will still have a larger pool of ships and options then our brave just starting out Timmy. So they are still going to be smashed either way in competitive. 

 

Now where hyperspace might be useful is a kid's gloves, casual version of the game with 1-3 ships per faction and maybe even bar named pilots for balance sake. Which is what I thought the quick build shenanigans was going to be used for in the first place but oh well. 

But hyperspace as a competitive format just narrows the WAAC player bases focus it does NOTHING to even the field for newcomers. 

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