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DISCUSSION: What is the single biggest issue and what single change made do you think would help L5R as a whole?

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17 hours ago, JolOfNar said:

 Buy in cost is a wall for new players. Slows expanding to new player bases, and probably limits the game to very slow numerical decline as new players buy sets from players leaving the game rather than new. 

Also the game is story driven. The community needs weekly stories, whether there are new cars or not. Keeping that story stream is crucial to the lifespan of the game. 

It's a bit unfortunate that an LCG's main selling point has inadvertently also become its barriers. The long term costs of playing an LCG is vastly cheaper than that of a CCG and cuts away the complication of chasing rares, especially in smaller communities. For a while during oL5R, playing with one-ofs even on the kitchen table felt miserable. However, people are interested in the immediate start up, especially when they aren't sure if this is something they want to commit to.

Working with what we have with now and as they are, it would be neat see a community made "start-up shortcuts" if players are interested in certain clans so they feel they don't need to buy into every pack if they are interested in playing certain decks.

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2 hours ago, Hordeoverseer said:

Working with what we have with now and as they are, it would be neat see a community made "start-up shortcuts" if players are interested in certain clans so they feel they don't need to buy into every pack if they are interested in playing certain decks.

I think thats better done in a case by case scenario based on the person. His main clan of choice, playstyle, interests, etc. At least thats what we try to do here. I always tell people not to buy anything until theyve tried the game, and we are all willing to lend cards to new people, both before they buy stuff for pñaytesting, and whilenthey buy and get up to date, to help them access the entire card pool even if they havent bought everything yet. We have also tried having two tournamet leagues: one with everything and one phased back, with less dynasty packs legal so new guys dont feel left out (we made a core set only when the first pack of the second cycle came out, and introduced -in release order- one pack a month). We're also talking about going with two decks, one of them noob friendly with only some packs available. 

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5 hours ago, Hinomura said:

I'm relatively ambivalent to the topic. I will say that allowing players to shape the mechanics of deck building on such a scale is, to me, seriously cool and takes the baton of Old5R storyline choices then RUNS away with it. The concept absolutely blew me away when first announced.

I've said this many times before, but my ideal process would be that Top of Clan choose Roles twice a year (once in North America, once elsewhere), with the caveats that you can't take the same Role twice in a row and that no more than four Keeper or Seeker Roles can be selected. The three unchosen Roles become available to every Clan, meaning every Clan will always have access to both a Seeker and a Keeper.

Intriguing idea, I have to admit. Very creative. I only lean towards anti-role locking because it currently limits each Clan to a minimal number of competitive archetypes. Maybe as the card pools continue to grow this will improve... unfortunately we then have card retirement to consider. I hope this balances out favourably  as the arc changes in Old5R seemed to. All Clans should have this diversity in viable archetypes to keep the game interesting and engaging.

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On 7/22/2019 at 4:05 PM, Ishi Tonu said:

In that same vein, I've wondered many times why Age of War (a samurai dice game that FFG owns) hasn't gotten a L5R skinned version of the game.  It's easy to learn, it's fun, it has some small level of strategy.  It could be incorporated into L5R side events, and/or used as prize support.  I already have a copy of the game in great condition and would gladly purchase a new copy if it was given a L5R facelift.  They could have special clan themed dice, alt art prizes.....custom dice cups/trays.  Turn it into a digital game.  There is a lot of room for exposure.  I would much rather break out my L5R themed copy of Age of War and then tell people about the card game, the rpg, the non-existent miniatures game, etc.  FFG should be looking to make this the go to samurai IP.  While it may not have as big of an audience as Star Wars, there are plenty of people that enjoy the east-Asian genre to want to expand the opportunities to get the IP out there...

This is really my issue here! Great points (minus the unnecessary quip at 47 Ronin-- I liked that movie 😆)!

I just got into the series for the first time after playing the L5R RPG Beginner's Box with my friends last month. Suddenly, I found myself jumping online and purchasing the entire L5R RPG line in one-go! So obviously I've been bitten by the L5R bug, and seemingly the RPG line isn't enough for me. Even after reading the Core, EE, and Shadowlands back to back (taking a brain break before CoS since my mind is basically drowning in the lore at this point 😅)-- I want more! 

Now that I'm interested in getting into the only other option, the LCG (and quite willing to drop the $$$ necessary to get into it since the lore+art is crazy awesome), I can't find a single FLGS within a 30 mile radius that even hosts L5R LCG on their calendar events for me to learn/play (this is a minimum of 8 different shops, people)! Which makes me wonder if the FLGS around me even have the cards for sale, at this point? And if they don't sell the game, then that most likely means people around me aren't even playing the LCG anymore. So if my FLGS aren't pushing the product, and people aren't buying the cards anymore, there's no way I'm going to find players to play against, or people to teach me this somewhat intimidating LCG.

So now I'm kind of stuck...

Which then makes me wonder, why the **** spend $100-200 to start an LCG that no one around me is going to be playing? If I had some alternative outlet like any of the above, especially a digital version, a la Steam's LotR: ACG to throw money at (no commutes to FLGS, always players to be found online, etc.,) that would be awesome! Because at this point, I'm holding onto hope that they'll just release a digital game and I can buy stuff there, instead of spending money on cards that will just collect dust (and some days gone through to admire artwork)!

Honestly, I buy more Arkham Horror/LotR LCG and Imperial Assault products because of the Co-Op aspects of the game (mainly because its always easier to convince people to try, for some reason). So if the game had a Semi Co-Op/Full Co-Op option (either through another game that did this or an optional expansion pack), I would also ****** that up in a heartbeat!

Point being, I can't be the only person like this, right? I would imagine you guys all want more from this IP! But by not doing more with it (or at least letting the community know you guys are working on something else-- FFG is losing an opportunity to grow L5R and in the process, make more money.

Having said all of that... give me what I want!!! More L5R stuff to buy!!! 🤣

 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Maleficus_Sadi said:

This is really my issue here! Great points (minus the unnecessary quip at 47 Ronin-- I liked that movie 😆)!

I would argue that it is always and completely necessary to point out when a movie, where Ted has no business being the lead and completely wrecks what is a decent book, falls flat.  Must the same way that I despise Maverick for his role in The Last Samurai.   Maverick has legit acting chops, so I'll cut him some slack, and the premise of the story is at least plausible to have a honky hero.  If the two actors swapped places, I'd still think 47 Ronin was bad.

When you attach the name 47 Ronin to a movie, you are placing certain expectations on it.  Failure to live up to those expectations will get my wrath.  Call it something else and it's an OK movie at best.  It's essentially The Last Jedi of samurai movies...……….or I guess since it came out first, The Last Jedi is the 47 Ronin of Star Wars movies.

back on topic

L5R needs to be THEE fantasy samurai brand. 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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16 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

When you attach the name 47 Ronin to a movie, you are placing certain expectations on it.  Failure to live up to those expectations will get my wrath.  Call it something else and it's an OK movie at best.  It's essentially The Last Jedi of samurai movies...……….or I guess since it came out first, The Last Jedi is the 47 Ronin of Star Wars movies.

L5R needs to be THEE fantasy samurai brand. 

You make a good point there! They probably should have used a different title, because there is a lot of legend and precedence setup for that specific story, which in turn sets up lofty expectations. And those expectations, well... they would've been difficult for anyone to pull off, I imagine!

As to L5R, I can't see why it isn't! There aren't many IPs to contest it either, so I feel like the big sumo in the room needs to throw his weight around and make sure everyone knows he's the grand champion of the franchise, before some young upstart appears out of nowhere and steals their thunder!

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53 minutes ago, Maleficus_Sadi said:

You make a good point there! They probably should have used a different title, because there is a lot of legend and precedence setup for that specific story, which in turn sets up lofty expectations. And those expectations, well... they would've been difficult for anyone to pull off, I imagine!

As to L5R, I can't see why it isn't! There aren't many IPs to contest it either, so I feel like the big sumo in the room needs to throw his weight around and make sure everyone knows he's the grand champion of the franchise, before some young upstart appears out of nowhere and steals their thunder!

Considering they practically made it into a Ninja Scroll rip off I cut them 0 slack for wasting the name the way they did.

Sadly for L5R we are fighting for attention with the company cash cow Star Wars, the new hotness Keyforge and what should be a very important community in AGoT.  The fact that L5R is the only one that they outright own should lend us some cred, but its still a bit of an uphill struggle while they milk the money from the licenses while they still can.

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2 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Considering they practically made it into a Ninja Scroll rip off I cut them 0 slack for wasting the name the way they did.

47 Ronin wasn't anything close to Ninja Scroll. 

Shinobi, on the other hand...………..that had some noticeable similarities with Ninja Scroll.  It was also way better than 47 Ronin.

13 Assassins or Harakiri are closer to the story of the 47 Ronin, at least when I consider things like duty, loyalty, revenge. 

I barely made it through 47 Ronin.  I have yet to, and will likely never, see The Great Wall. 

*

I think FFG should come up with a way for us to log games from Jigoku and then turn them into short videos that capture the action of the game in movie form.

If I were to purchase Hida Kisada it shows some animation of someone calling him to battle (dynasty phase) and then my opponent buys Toturi and they go to a conflict where they face off and we get a little animated fight and it shows who wins.  Like a game recap with animated visuals that describes the game play instead of us watching cards and tokens fly around the board.

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On 7/25/2019 at 11:05 AM, Hordeoverseer said:

Working with what we have with now and as they are, it would be neat see a community made "start-up shortcuts" if players are interested in certain clans so they feel they don't need to buy into every pack if they are interested in playing certain decks.

So I had the chance to try this out this weekend. 2 friends of mine that I play some keyforge games with were interested in this game. I made 4 decks to kind of introduce them to it. My rules were simple:

  • No roles.
  • No clan mixing.
  • No dueling.
  • No disguise.
  • No composure.

Turns out when you break things down to the bare basics, the decks get pretty easy to build as your card pool drops a lot. The one I estimated as a lion player definitely enjoyed his clan and the "army smash" feel of it. The phoenix player was interested but I don't know if it "grabbed" him right away. (poor phoenix - don't seem to have anything appropriate for a newbie)

They were asking me questions about costs and getting into the game. How exactly do I explain rotation to them... (should they bother with this or that cycle or wait? etc) The challenge of the core set is probably their biggest hurdles. Right now since I have a complete collection I can supply most of the decks. May see if we can run some kind of casual league with little interior rules on roles & clans.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/5/2019 at 11:38 AM, RafaelNN said:

Make it phased back and introduce the dynasty packs one by one monthly until you catch up with what is official today. Thats what we did here

May do that if the newbies start buying their own, will stress their wallets less.

You know, I'm going to miss the first dynasty cycle and all of the seals...

Edited by Simplegarak

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Posted (edited)

Getting new people in is definitely a hurdle.

 

The buy-in is steep.

So is the complexity (which was also true in the CCG days, but I think the LCG actually has more moving parts that actually impact decisions made on a turn by turn basis)

As someone noted earlier, the game feels more like it punishes mistakes than rewards audacity (I actually haven't won a game yet, but since it released, I've also played less then ten games total, all against the same opponent- because there's no local group built up to play it. However, that means I'm no way confident in my ability to teach it, so I'm not growing any local playgroup either)

It can also be hard to pick up and run with a clan that interests you flavorwise if they're, well... Unicorn during the first year or two of the game's existence, and so forth.

Also... those of us who played the CCG and made the switch? We're gettin' old, man. Haven't got hours and hours of free time to learn the game well enough to really sell it.

Edited by Shiba Gunichi

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16 minutes ago, Hannibal_pjv said:

If They could make the game shorter, it would be nice!

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that in our newbie game - we ran with the rules "break 2 provs to hit stronghold" to speed things up.

It does make things faster, but I can see why they went through with the 3 rule since that can set a player up for comebacks. But it was still pretty fun. Give it a try.

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Posted (edited)

I'm interested in starting this game. Where should I start? Casual play mostly.

Are all packs legal still? I should buy core + clan pack + expansion ? (though I heard some people say you need 3 core sets, which is disgusting) but that aside, any starting investment tips ?

Edited by Avatar111

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27 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

I'm interested in starting this game. Where should I start? Casual play mostly.

Are all packs legal still? I should buy core + clan pack + expansion ? (though I heard some people say you need 3 core sets, which is disgusting)

At the moment, everything is legal at the moment and it should stay that way probably 9 months (at the absolutely unlikely earliest) to maybe a year.

3 core is absolutely needed for competitive play but I will say you can make legal and workable decks at 2 core for casual play.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

I'm interested in starting this game. Where should I start? Casual play mostly.

Are all packs legal still? I should buy core + clan pack + expansion ? (though I heard some people say you need 3 core sets, which is disgusting) but that aside, any starting investment tips ?

Expanding on the above, currently all sets are legal. 

Rotation plans have been announced and when Cycle 5 starts Cycles 1 and 2 will rotate out, then on every odd cycle the two oldest sets will rotate out (so Cycle 7 rotates out Cycles 3 and 4, Cycle 9 rotates 5 and 6, etc.).  It should be noted we are just approaching the midway point of cycle 3 so as mentioned its is likely 9-12 months before we see the release of cycle 5. 

They have also stated that the Clan Packs will rotate when a new Pack for that specific clan is released (so for Example the Disciples of the Void Pack for Phoenix will be legal until a new Phoenix pack is released)

As for Cores sets 3 will get you a full play set of all the clan cards (and 2 sets for most of the neutrals) so is recommended for competitive play, but with 2 sets you'll have enough to definitely play around casually. 

I would recommend start with 2 cores and your Clan pack (if available) and the Children of the Empire expansions as they all have decent starting cards. From there start looking at the individual cycle packs to pick out the good ones for clans you are interested in (for example if you plan to play Crane you likely want copies of Kakita Yoshi from Pack 3 (into the Forbidden City) of the Imperial Cycle (cycle 1).  I would definitely recommend you play around on a few of the deck builder sites to figure out which cards catch your eye. 

Edited by Schmoozies

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2 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Expanding on the above, currently all sets are legal. 

Rotation plans have been announced and when Cycle 5 starts Cycles 1 and 2 will rotate out, then on every odd cycle the two oldest sets will rotate out (so Cycle 7 rotates out Cycles 3 and 4, Cycle 9 rotates 5 and 6, etc.).  It should be noted we are just approaching the midway point of cycle 3 so as mentioned its is likely 9-12 months before we see the release of cycle 5. 

They have also stated that the Clan Packs will rotate when a new Pack for that specific clan is released (so for Example the Disciples of the Void Pack for Phoenix will be legal until a new Phoenix pack is released)

As for Cores sets 3 will get you a full play set of all the clan cards (and 2 sets for most of the neutrals) so is recommended for competitive play, but with 2 sets you'll have enough to definitely play around casually. 

I would recommend start with 2 cores and your Clan pack (if available) and the Children of the Empire expansions as they all have decent starting cards. From there start looking at the individual cycle packs to pick out the good ones for clans you are interested in (for example if you plan to play Crane you likely want copies of Kakita Yoshi from Pack 3 (into the Forbidden City) of the Imperial Cycle (cycle 1).  I would definitely recommend you play around on a few of the deck builder sites to figure out which cards catch your eye. 

well explained, not too sure about how I understand cycles, but doesn't seem like a big deal, yet.

which deckbuilder site would you recommend ?

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Just now, Avatar111 said:

well explained, not too sure about how I understand cycles, but doesn't seem like a big deal, yet.

which deckbuilder site would you recommend ?

Cycles are a collection of 6 packs (used to be 20 cards each, but the current packs are 22 since they moved to only including 1 copy of the provinces and 1 of cards instead of 3) that taken together make up a story set.  Cycle 1 was the Imperial Cycle and included the first 6 Packs, Cycle 2 the Elemental Cycle was the next 6 packs and the current set, the Inheritance Cycle, is the one that is currently releasing and has packs 1 and 2 out with the 3rd expected to drop at t he end of the month. 

The clan packs are separate from the cycles and comprise a release group of their own.

Children of the Empire was a deluxe set and so is also separate from the Cycle releases.

For deck building sites I prefer the interface on Bushi Builder https://bushibuilder.com/, but the other popular one is Five Rings DB  https://fiveringsdb.com/ which is nice because the cards link to copies of known rulings and FAQ's on them.

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I'd also say that if you want to, you could get a core set with your favorite clan pack (unless your clan picks are one of the 3 yet to be released - in that case you may have to wait) and build at least a rudimentary deck to play with just to check how much you like it. Then after that you can see about getting dynasty packs and additional cores as you want.

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4 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Rotation plans have been announced and when Cycle 5 starts Cycles 1 and 2 will rotate out, then on every odd cycle the two oldest sets will rotate out (so Cycle 7 rotates out Cycles 3 and 4, Cycle 9 rotates 5 and 6, etc.).  It should be noted we are just approaching the midway point of cycle 3 so as mentioned its is likely 9-12 months before we see the release of cycle 5. 
 

if we are mid cycle 3, how do you expect cycle 5 to release in a year? are they doing 1 pack per month?

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1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

if we are mid cycle 3, how do you expect cycle 5 to release in a year? are they doing 1 pack per month?

yes we are on 1 pack per month so we should have full cycle by the end of the year, then cycle 4 starts in 2020 and wraps up anywhere between June and September depending on when they started it.  If it ends around June then there isn't a huge delay between the start of Cycle 5 Rotation starts at that point.  12 months is optimistic but I prefer to give worse case scenarios so that I'm pleasantly surprised rather then upset if things are going faster then predicted.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

yes we are on 1 pack per month so we should have full cycle by the end of the year, then cycle 4 starts in 2020 and wraps up anywhere between June and September depending on when they started it.  If it ends around June then there isn't a huge delay between the start of Cycle 5 Rotation starts at that point.  12 months is optimistic but I prefer to give worse case scenarios so that I'm pleasantly surprised rather then upset if things are going faster then predicted.

quite the fast release schedule. thx for all the answers btw. very clean and appreciated.

 

Edit; bought the cards. Looking forward to making either a dragon or lion deck.

Edited by Avatar111

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I was thinking about i think the biggest hurdle is marketing. Most of FFGs other LCG titles have their marketing done for them in some regards. 

Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Marvel Champions, Arkham Horror. People know what these are regardless of FFG. If they like the setting and look for a game then they will find these.

L5R doesn't really have that. In fact there is more confusion as its easier to find O5R videos and websites than FFGs. FFG just need to push the Brand. As it has been said before in this thread, this needs to be the big Samurai IP. Two of the most straight forward ways i can think of this is to push those fictions out and other media. Currently the Story ties in the RPG and the LCG and isn't actually product dependent. It doesn't even need to be fictions to do with the current story arc, just more stories.
Most of the articles that are coming out from FFG are all designed for existing players. New Fictions, Rule updates, details about Koteis. Most of these wont attract new players. New fictions are great, if you know what is happening or where they fit in.  The stories should be kept in an archive which is linked to every fiction articles released so that newcomers can see "Wow that's a lot of fiction and I can start here". Currently this is done by the community and you need to look for it in the forums, and some people aren't even sure which forums those are as the RPG forums have their own "lore" Forum separate from the LCC. Making this more accessible is huge as unlike ruling and other info they are always relevant and people will want to read them. Scrolling though years of articles to find 1 story just because there ins't a set place for them is ridiculous.

As for other media, people have already suggested re-skinning games which is a great idea. I do also think that more of an effort on youtube. Currently they have 14 Videos in total that have L5r mentioned in them. Half of which are just the minute long Clan Videos (which are perfect actually) and the other 7 are over an hour long each. You try getting someone to watch a hour long video of people playing a game they don't understand, it wont be to engaging. Make a heap of simple videos, just small rule interactions, tech plays people have done or single card previews "This is Hida O-Ushi. A Samurai from the Crab Clan, her ability is "if you win a Conflict as the defender you can declare another Military Conflict", useful with crabs defensive play style. Also she a lead character from this Short Story which can be read here. This card will be released in Crab Clan Pack "Defenders of Rokugan"". 

From what I wrote above some one with no experience in this game should be able to pick up the following.

  • Involves Samurai
  • there are Multiple clans
  • You need to defend
  • Conflicts other than Military
  • multiple play styles
  • short stories
  • there are Clan Packs.


There also would be information gathered from just looking at the card that doesn't need spelling out to attract new players. Keeping it simple means you're not talking down to your older players and you're inviting new players to find out more. Now I am not saying do this for every single preview or ruling, but just to start getting FFG L5R out there.

 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Jamadman said:

I was thinking about i think the biggest hurdle is marketing. Most of FFGs other LCG titles have their marketing done for them in some regards. 

Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Marvel Champions, Arkham Horror. People know what these are regardless of FFG. If they like the setting and look for a game then they will find these.

L5R doesn't really have that. In fact there is more confusion as its easier to find O5R videos and websites than FFGs. FFG just need to push the Brand. As it has been said before in this thread, this needs to be the big Samurai IP. Two of the most straight forward ways i can think of this is to push those fictions out and other media. Currently the Story ties in the RPG and the LCG and isn't actually product dependent. It doesn't even need to be fictions to do with the current story arc, just more stories.
Most of the articles that are coming out from FFG are all designed for existing players. New Fictions, Rule updates, details about Koteis. Most of these wont attract new players. New fictions are great, if you know what is happening or where they fit in.  The stories should be kept in an archive which is linked to every fiction articles released so that newcomers can see "Wow that's a lot of fiction and I can start here". Currently this is done by the community and you need to look for it in the forums, and some people aren't even sure which forums those are as the RPG forums have their own "lore" Forum separate from the LCC. Making this more accessible is huge as unlike ruling and other info they are always relevant and people will want to read them. Scrolling though years of articles to find 1 story just because there ins't a set place for them is ridiculous.

As for other media, people have already suggested re-skinning games which is a great idea. I do also think that more of an effort on youtube. Currently they have 14 Videos in total that have L5r mentioned in them. Half of which are just the minute long Clan Videos (which are perfect actually) and the other 7 are over an hour long each. You try getting someone to watch a hour long video of people playing a game they don't understand, it wont be to engaging. Make a heap of simple videos, just small rule interactions, tech plays people have done or single card previews "This is Hida O-Ushi. A Samurai from the Crab Clan, her ability is "if you win a Conflict as the defender you can declare another Military Conflict", useful with crabs defensive play style. Also she a lead character from this Short Story which can be read here. This card will be released in Crab Clan Pack "Defenders of Rokugan"". 

From what I wrote above some one with no experience in this game should be able to pick up the following.

  • Involves Samurai
  • there are Multiple clans
  • You need to defend
  • Conflicts other than Military
  • multiple play styles
  • short stories
  • there are Clan Packs.


There also would be information gathered from just looking at the card that doesn't need spelling out to attract new players. Keeping it simple means you're not talking down to your older players and you're inviting new players to find out more. Now I am not saying do this for every single preview or ruling, but just to start getting FFG L5R out there.

 

The fact that they do not organize all the stories in released order, in nice pdf format, and that you have to open 5 tabs and try to organize them by dates yourself is just so dumb!

Right about that! It should be in one tab, in order, with a small description.

No reason not to whatsoever.

But coming from the l5r rpg side, my expectations are low! There are spoilers for the published adventures (in neat bullet point easy to read format) mixed up with character creation options in the same pdf location. We don't even have tabs :D

 

Edited by Avatar111

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