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Blail Blerg

The Hyenas

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4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I think it’s missile pricing holding these (and so many others) back. If all the lock-based missiles cost 2 pts less, would you fly them with probes?

You keep repeating this '2 points overpriced' thing all the time, but do you actually play missiles at all, or did you just glance at the points and decide it was too much? I've been using Ion/Concussion Missiles in every other game I've played for half a year, and doing very well with them. FFG clearly disagrees with you as well, increasing the cost of two of the missiles and leaving the rest where they are.

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24 minutes ago, Okapi said:

You keep repeating this '2 points overpriced' thing all the time, but do you actually play missiles at all, or did you just glance at the points and decide it was too much? I've been using Ion/Concussion Missiles in every other game I've played for half a year, and doing very well with them. FFG clearly disagrees with you as well, increasing the cost of two of the missiles and leaving the rest where they are.

While I certainly would like some good missile on Quinn Jast or other Scyks, some punch on a Kihraxz or A-wings, or finally having a non Blount Z95 worth its points(!)(still have not flown generic Z95s in 2nd ed), I can understand FFG being very careful with missile cost. Imagine a very good missile on the high efficiency (cost/effect ratio) ordnance carriers (e.g. Imp bombers, vultures) or e.g. cheap missile Z95s backed by Gavin, etc.

The biggest problem however are Gunboats and especially FO's TIE sf (backwards firing missiles at around 35pts?!?), joust with TL and shooting missile front, keeping the TL, swishing by, doing focus link rotate,  shooting double modded missile back!)

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24 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

While I certainly would like some good missile on Quinn Jast or other Scyks, some punch on a Kihraxz or A-wings, or finally having a non Blount Z95 worth its points(!)(still have not flown generic Z95s in 2nd ed), I can understand FFG being very careful with missile cost. Imagine a very good missile on the high efficiency (cost/effect ratio) ordnance carriers (e.g. Imp bombers, vultures) or e.g. cheap missile Z95s backed by Gavin, etc.

The biggest problem however are Gunboats and especially FO's TIE sf (backwards firing missiles at around 35pts?!?), joust with TL and shooting missile front, keeping the TL, swishing by, doing focus link rotate,  shooting double modded missile back!)

Gunboats and SFs certainly, but Inquisitors are strong at 39-43 points with a combination of Concussion/Ion Missiles and FCS/PS. Jonus-powered Bombers with Clusters can be very nasty (Rhymer enjoys this one too). Republic has the Synched Console Homing Missiles (this combo is the reason why Naboos don't have the mod slot). At this point getting the lock shouldn't be all that much of a problem either, with Jendon, Airen, Valen, Tavson, Passive Sensors, 32C, DFS-311, Instinctive Aim and more providing access in one way or another. Or, you know, you could always just go past, grab the lock and fire your missile on the second pass. That's what I generally do with my v1s.

There are a couple of ships though where the slot is mostly useless, but in those cases it's probably mostly there for fluff reasons. Z-95s with missiles serve very little purpose; same goes for Kihraxs. The TIE Advanced x1 basically has a missile built in. Ships with both torpedo and missile slots also (as far as I know) have the reload action, and should pick Ion Torpedoes over any R2-3 missile (unless you can spare the points for the Ion Missile/APT combo).

I'm not saying missiles are perfectly costed, but they're nowhere near the 'completely useless' status some players seem to think. I'd almost go as far as predicting the Diamond-Boron Baktoid with be in nearly every Separatist squad going forward, and we'll certainly see plenty of PS missile SFs as well.

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Thinking about Hyenas for a sec, something like "DBS-404, DRK-1 Probes, [ordnance], Struts" could be an interesting piece as part of a larger list of non-Vulture/Hyena ships.

The build would be ~40-45 points, depending on ordnance.  Ion Missiles are cheap, ESC can switch to Calculate firing if need be, Plasma Torpedoes might be decent if 404 is your highest initiative ship.  Even with Proton Torpedo, 404 will still be an under 50 point ship.  Launch one probe super early, to try for some really long range locks.  Launch the second charge the turn before engaging, to ensure you'll have a lock on someone relevant.

Meanwhile, this sort of 404 could fit in along side stuff like Belbullabs or upcoming Nantex, to serve in a role somewhat like a Dutch Vander or Colonel Jendon: semi-support, semi-hitter.

Actually, 4x Skakoan Ace + 404 with just Probes and Struts fits.  Probably not a great list, but seems like fun.

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11 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

kk, how about 2? 

Well...take both!

Just remember to keep the probe on the TuB because you're expecting 404 to die (preservation protocols not found, motherfluffer!)

Btw, in case not everyone has bought a sith, the diamond boron Baktoid with passive sensors is also dandy with some calculation support ala Kraken 

 

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Myself and a friend have had success with this list:
 

General Grievous (44)    
    Crack Shot (1)    
    Impervium Plating (4)    
    Soulless One (6)    
    
Ship total: 55  Half Points: 28  Threshold: 4    
    
DBS-404 (30)    
    Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)    
    Landing Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 37  Half Points: 19  Threshold: 3    
    
Techno Union Bomber (26)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    DRK-1 Probe Droids (5)    
    
Ship total: 36  Half Points: 18  Threshold: 3    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 200    
  

I think that in general Hyenas are not efficiently costed with the exception of 404.  I don't think that they should be swarmed.  The reason the TUB has an ESC in this list is so that we had 5 points left over and better to have a 3 dice missile than rely on the primary.  Also people tend to shoot at it since it is worth more points than the Vultures, but the 2 extra hull makes it harder to one shot.

In this list my friends and I were brain storming different pieces and it all congealed into this thing.  The TUB and Vultures fly in formation slowly and kick out the two probes.  Grievous looks to swing out to flank, but not too far because he is the most expensive piece in the list and while he can soak some shots, you don't want him taking hits without retaliation from the rest of the list.  404 is the weird one.  What he does depends on your opponent's list.  If it is an ace list I keep him near the formation and take a lock on a precious ship like Poe or Anakin and slow roll, daring them to come near.  If it is a jousting list 404 can flank to the opposite side of Grievous and be pretty effective.  The glaring weakness to me is the lack of a Tac Relay, specifically Kraken, but you can't have everything.  Grievous is a monster if left unchecked but it is unwise to lower your defenses against 404 and the ESC crew.

In practice this list has been 3-0, competitively it didn't fair so well but I haven't had a chat with my buddy to find out the specifics.  I don't know if he was having a bad day and made mistakes or was unlucky, or if he had some tough match ups, or if the list is crap but we hadn't played enough games to find out yet.

Random Hyena Thoughts:

Baktoids are interesting to me, but I haven't put them on the table yet.  DBM + FCS seems great so long as you have a TUB with DRK-1s in the same list to set it up.  Barrage Rockets are an option, but I haven't tried them yet either.  They are good on TIE Bombers, might be good here as well.

I can't bring myself to pay the extra 3 points for Separtist Bombers for I3 and no talent slot; but that is mostly because there is a lot of Initiative 4 and up being played in my local area.  I understand why they don't have a Talent slot, but it makes taking them purely a meta call. 

Bombardment Drones slapping Prox Mines onto enemy ships sounds fun, but Hyenas aren't so durable that they are guaranteed to live through the first engagement to pull that trick off.  Trajectory Simulator makes this 32 point ship 42 points before bombs and makes it a 5 health points pinata for your opponent.

DBS-32C is overcosted.  Engagement phase coordinate is potentially awesome, but it is limited to ships with Networked Calculations and they are all kind of fragile.  I can see the synergy with 404 or maybe a Precise Hunter, but 42 points is a lot to pay for that trick.  I've tended to leave 32C at home and bring DFS-311(Butterbot) with Grappling Struts instead.  He has a similar enough effect at a longer range for 18 points less.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Okapi said:

You keep repeating this '2 points overpriced' thing all the time, but do you actually play missiles at all, or did you just glance at the points and decide it was too much? I've been using Ion/Concussion Missiles in every other game I've played for half a year, and doing very well with them. FFG clearly disagrees with you as well, increasing the cost of two of the missiles and leaving the rest where they are.

EDIT: Note that I'm only talking about lock-based missiles. Barrage and Prockets are very good for their price.

Maybe two points is too much. Maybe 1 point down would be more appropriate. I just know if I have two /v1 barons, I could put predator on both or ion missiles on one, and one of those two options is clearly the better deal. Most ships that want Concussion are already swarm ships and would me more likely to hurt themselves with the splash damage than anyone else. Homing is a really solid option but again, only on ships that can take the lock, so you're either investing even more into Jendon or Punishers with PS (at which point you might as well take torpedos or Diamond Boron). 5 points for clusters also just seems like too much. It's good for the occasional 3rd die at range 2. Sometimes burning the extra charge for a second attack could be worth it, but it's almost always completely unmodded, so a 2-primary ship is more likely to want the charge for another R2 attack with mods later or a 3-primary ship doesn't want to spend that much and chase the lock for a situational R2 unmodded double-tap.

No, I don't play missiles much. I've tried homing on my TIE bombers repeatedly, but the locks are really hard to land and don't pay out well enough for me. The place I get my estimation of their prices is from the statistical model I ran using listfortress data before the last points adjustment came out.

Based on Listfortress data, the four missile types in question got the following performance last season:

Concussion - 48 squads - 21st percentile

Cluster - 120 squads - 17th percentile

Homing - 21 squads - 20th percentile

Ion - 19 squads - 16th percentile

Those are compared to the baseline mean of 99 squads and 25th percentile. You can see that they were typically taken far less and/or performed far worse than average, and so all four merit a cost reduction, at least of some kind. The missile slot is competing with mod and illicit for the most unused slot in the game. But we don't really want the mod slot used most of the time, and now that CC has gotten a drop, illicits will probably be used more than in the past. Missiles are still very sad.

My problem with the missile costing is that either:

a)  Filler ships don't want to increase their price in the first place, and they're going to struggle most for the lock anyway. For these ships it's mainly just a bonus for surviving the first engagement (and it's still just a single-modded 3-attack with a gimmick).

b) Bombers still have trouble with the lock unless you invest more into shenanigans for them, and then they'd rather take torpedoes every time.

c) Aces don't care about missiles except the occasional fringe benefit of splash damage, ion, or double-tap, none of which are worth the current price

This doesn't really leave any archetypes that really want to take missiles at the current price point except the occasional instinctive /v1 or synchronized torrent, and those aren't doing that well competitively anyway. The Passive TIE/sf is a new and interesting exception, but I think PS is underpriced and the missiles shouldn't suffer for that. If PS doesn't make torps too scary, then why should we be worried about missiles on them? It still means no defensive mods as locks always have.

And you are right; they're not completely useless. I just know for myself that I've never seen a squad across the table where the missiles scared me, and I've almost never built a list with missiles where I didn't feel I could have used the points better on something else. I do still see use for them. I'd just rather live in a world where missiles are something to be afraid of (like we see in-universe).

So I guess I'll stop asking for a 2-point drop everywhere (though I still doubt that would be abusive; benefit is too marginal). At least a 1-point drop would show us whether they could actually be scary.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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5 Techno Union Bombers w/ Proton Torpedoes + Probe droid on one of them = Profit?

Throwing potentially 5 double modded proton torps on the opening joust is good right? And they don't even need to be next to each-other so you can just go old school and slow roll in a drift net formation. And you can have both probes out simultaneously, I believe, for even more lock coverage. 

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Current missiles except for ESC are pretty awful and many of them stand to lose 2 points. (Well, Barrage might be ok, I haven't tried it yet). Prockets are only really worth it on a select few 2die-attack ships like the A-wing

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10 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

5 Techno Union Bombers w/ Proton Torpedoes + Probe droid on one of them = Profit?

Throwing potentially 5 double modded proton torps on the opening joust is good right? And they don't even need to be next to each-other so you can just go old school and slow roll in a drift net formation. And you can have both probes out simultaneously, I believe, for even more lock coverage. 

We've tried it locally.  The results are mixed but generally not great.  Having 5 health and 2 agi means the TUBs aren't going to one shot barring cascading crits, but they can be two shot.  I1 means you are usually shooting last and have spent your Calculates to keep them alive.  Network Calculations begs you to fly them in a formation, if you split them up to spread out your firing arcs you lower your defense profile because Calculate is just worse than Focus.

Against large based ships that can't boost 5 Proton TUBs will do some work, it's a lot harder against something like Resistance 5s that don't have to try very hard to outmaneuver your Hyenas.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Current missiles except for ESC are pretty awful and many of them stand to lose 2 points. (Well, Barrage might be ok, I haven't tried it yet). Prockets are only really worth it on a select few 2die-attack ships like the A-wing

DBM looks like it will be quite good for 6 points. Barrage Rockets are great on Aggressors or Bombers, especially with Jonus (which is why they're up to what they're at now). Prockets might be a tad expensive but they're basically made for aces and they really hurt when they hit. They're really not bad on generic As or Zs either if they can get them off.

Basically they're the reason the others look so bad. I really want to fly TIE bombers with Cluster, Concussion, or Homing missiles. I just can't justify the cost, especially across 3-6 of them.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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29 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

DBM looks like it will be quite good for 6 points. Barrage Rockets are great on Aggressors or Bombers, especially with Jonus (which is why they're up to what they're at now). Prockets might be a tad expensive but they're basically made for aces and they really hurt when they hit. They're really not bad on generic As or Zs either if they can get them off.

Basically they're the reason the others look so bad. I really want to fly TIE bombers with Cluster, Concussion, or Homing missiles. I just can't justify the cost, especially across 3-6 of them.

If they were 2 or 3 points, concs and clusters would likely be much more useful. Though, it sadly would inflate the amount of 3 attack the game has, which is really not an ideal situation, it makes the game a lot less diverse. 

Really what it is though, is the other wonky missiles out there are just bad designs and should never have been released. 

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43 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

If they were 2 or 3 points, concs and clusters would likely be much more useful. Though, it sadly would inflate the amount of 3 attack the game has, which is really not an ideal situation, it makes the game a lot less diverse. 

Really what it is though, is the other wonky missiles out there are just bad designs and should never have been released. 

I kind of disagree. 2-attacks are still quite good, especially with mods and against low-agility or blocked targets. Ion and Homing are very cool and interesting designs as well, they're just (reasonably) hard to proc and should be priced as such.

I want to see the missiles as a *situational* reward for flying your 2-primary ship well (keeping it alive or managing to snag the lock and not die) sort of the way a R1 outside-of-arc attack or an outmaneuver attack is a situational reward for flying well. Too cheap it might lead to dice inflation but there are also plenty of 2-primaries without a missile slot. It just opens up other options. Priced well for that it would also be a reasonable (albeit situational) choice to add shenanigans to some 3-primary ships, especially those with a bow-tie primary that may want occasional extra coverage.

I think the devs just don't realize how hard it is to proc them on cheap low-I ships and how useful they really aren't on expensive high-I ships. Shenanigans to get them off are a nice thing, but again it makes the cost-sink even greater for generics and they'd be better off with torps, or else aces don't need it and aren't using missiles anyway.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨

Passive Sensors

I think they do know and it is an intentional part of the design of the game.

Okay, I mean they know it, but they don't price it like they know it. As I said, extra tricks make your missiles even more expensive. Passive at 3 plus homing at 5 comes to 8, which is a pretty huge investment for a 3-attack on a filler ship that's likely to die early, not to mention most filler ships and even some bombers don't have a sensor slot and would rather take torps if they did.

Why would I ever put Homing or Concussion on my bombers? If I'm paying for Jendon, I should get torps. If I'm not, it's not worth the investment. Same goes for Hyenas with DRK-1 probes. Same goes for PS Punishers. And so on. I really want to take lock-based missiles because they're the classics lore-wise (and I'm a sucker for thematics) but concussion, homing, and clusters are almost universally a pretty poor deal. I'm not arguing for an errata or anything, just a minor cost reduction. If they're cheap enough to represent their situational nature, they'd get taken more and used sometimes even without the extra shenanigans.

I really can't see a situation where the existing lock-based missiles would actually be abusive or unpleasant to play against with a 1-2 point reduction, or even how they would become auto-include. I just see them becoming more of a reasonable choice on otherwise-naked Z-95s, A-Wings, TIE Bombers, and Torrents.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Passive at 3 plus homing at 5 comes to 8, which is a pretty huge investment for a 3 4-attack or 1 auto damage on a filler ship that's likely to die early,

Not disagreeing with your opinion, just trying to make sure you've got your data accurate.

Homing Missiles

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Not disagreeing with your opinion, just trying to make sure you've got your data accurate.

Homing Missiles

Right, and Homing is my favorite missile and potentially the best value of the four. I tried a 5 bomber list not long ago with Homing and Proton bombs on all. I got 2-3 missiles off the whole game and trust me, I was trying. Low-I struggles for the lock and it's easy for aces to skip out on the range band. Large ships mostly don't care if they lose one health. Again, it's a pretty nice benefit when you can get it, but it's being priced like you already have passive sensors or the like.

I did win the game (against 2 X wings and a Y) but it was a pretty new player and he made a lot of mistakes, so I can't make much out of that.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Very sorry to have derailed the thread though. Hyenas are the subject and I do think they suffer due to current missile costs (6 for PS + Cluster or the like could make them great though!), but this discussion has moved far past that and should probably be discontinued.

Sorry for the griping, everyone. Back to Hyenas!

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So I was messing around int the builder... I dont know if you'd call this a hyena list, but it uses a hyena...

 

DBS-32C (42)    
    Advanced Sensors (10)    
    TA-175 (5)    
    Shield Upgrade (6)    
    Landing Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 64  Half Points: 32  Threshold: 3    
    
Separatist Drone (21)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    Grappling Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 27  Half Points: 14  Threshold: 2    
    
Separatist Drone (21)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    Grappling Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 27  Half Points: 14  Threshold: 2    
    
Separatist Drone (21)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    Grappling Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 27  Half Points: 14  Threshold: 2    
    
Separatist Drone (21)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    Grappling Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 27  Half Points: 14  Threshold: 2    
    
Separatist Drone (21)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    Grappling Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 27  Half Points: 14  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 199    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z328X111W239W165W237Y343X209W208WY343X209W208WY343X209W208WY343X209W208WY343X209W208W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

5 ESC carriers that all get another calculate when one dies, and a "command ship" that can camp the same asteroid or asteroid pair that  they are. After the first shots, they reload and dare the enemy to kill one so the rest can shoot back.

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