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9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

What changed Luke into the "Hermit who ran away" was his failure with Ben. This is explicitly stated in both movies. 

And I would add that his failure was not the thing with the lightsaber, because clearly if Ben then wiped out everybody he couldn't turn to his side, he not only had already turned to the dark side, but had already started to convert other students as well.

star-wars-the-last-jedi-mark-hamill-emotional-luke-skywalker-1094296-1280x0.thumb.jpeg.539b847adc92235ee764efade76a394d.jpeg
 

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On 7/31/2019 at 12:51 AM, EliasWindrider said:

I'm not sure the crafting rules apart from starships/vehicles need all that much work. I haven't looked closely at droids... actually I've only looked at lightsaber armor cybernetics alchemical talismans and starships closely although once upon a time I did use the rules to create a high end blaster pistol.  I'll complain that ther wasn't a lot of details in the cybernetics but I'm not sure it needs it.

Droids I'd like to see more base types to build, as they are rather limited (eg combat droid is minion or nemesis), but GMs can always add them.

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On 7/31/2019 at 6:34 PM, Daeglan said:

Luke the optimist

Luke was an idealist, really; frequently frustrated by circumstances. I know this is TLJ all over again but between that and the resigned hermitage of not one but two Jedi masters, Luke's exile made perfect sense. Also, character arc.

Han was the optimist, Leia the realist.

...Chewie the pugilist. Wheeee!

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1 hour ago, wilsch said:

Luke was an idealist, really; frequently frustrated by circumstances. I know this is TLJ all over again but between that and the resigned hermitage of not one but two Jedi masters, Luke's exile made perfect sense. Also, character arc.

Han was the optimist, Leia the realist.

...Chewie the pugilist. Wheeee!

Except it didnt because henisna main character and we are suppose to see their developement. Not get vague non explanations in secondary media that doesnt actually cover what happened. And what we got was a character cliff not arc. We see him happy at the end of ep VI we see a glimpse of grumpy Luke at the end of ep VII then we get grumpy a hole Luke in Ep VIII. With no real explanation of what went wrong. In fact all the original characters are kinda reset in the new Trilogy. 

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9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Except it didnt because henisna main character and we are suppose to see their developement. Not get vague non explanations in secondary media that doesnt actually cover what happened. And what we got was a character cliff not arc. We see him happy at the end of ep VI we see a glimpse of grumpy Luke at the end of ep VII then we get grumpy a hole Luke in Ep VIII. With no real explanation of what went wrong. In fact all the original characters are kinda reset in the new Trilogy. 

We are told, and shown, exactly what went wrong. He failed in training Ben. TLJ shows us exactly how he failed Ben as well, from three different perspectives. 

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30 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Except it didnt because henisna main character and we are suppose to see their developement. Not get vague non explanations in secondary media that doesnt actually cover what happened. And what we got was a character cliff not arc. We see him happy at the end of ep VI we see a glimpse of grumpy Luke at the end of ep VII then we get grumpy a hole Luke in Ep VIII. With no real explanation of what went wrong. In fact all the original characters are kinda reset in the new Trilogy. 

In addition to what Tramp Graphics said, Luke isn't a main character here. He's a supporting one. He's the elder mentor figure who dies at the end.

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

We are told, and shown, exactly what went wrong. He failed in training Ben. TLJ shows us exactly how he failed Ben as well, from three different perspectives. 

No we are not. We are given vague unsatisfying hints. And to handnoff properly you kind of need to treat the character better. When the actor playing the character is not happy there is a problem. 

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On 7/30/2019 at 4:32 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

However, it is actually much more in character for him to let his emotions get the better of him, if only briefly, because that is what routinely happened throughout the OT. He was reckless, and impulsive by nature. He had to struggle to keep his impulses under control. That's who Luke is. 

But on the DS at the end of RotJ, Luke fundamentally changed.  He finally saw what his impulses drove him to and what would happen if he let his emotions get the better of him (he would turn to the dark side like Anakin), and he chose to change in that moment he threw his lightsaber away.  He chose to stay to the light side.  THAT is what made him the new hope, that is what made him the hope for the future and to do things differently than what came before.  Plus, now knowing this about himself, he now had 10-20 years to reflect and understand that he can be reckless and come to master that aspect of himself.

With this info it has always been my impression that Luke would be the one to usher in a new and fundamentally different Jedi.  

But what we got was a Luke who was simply continuing the traditions that came before.  And in that sense I find Luke's transformation in RotJ invalidated.  He was not the new hope, he was merely the next in line.

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Inquisitor Tremayne said:

But on the DS at the end of RotJ, Luke fundamentally changed.  He finally saw what his impulses drove him to and what would happen if he let his emotions get the better of him (he would turn to the dark side like Anakin), and he chose to change in that moment he threw his lightsaber away.  He chose to stay to the light side. 

He chose to stay on the light side, at that specific point in time. A moral choice is something you make every time you are faced with a moral dilemma. It's not like he can go "I picked light, so now for the rest of my life I will never have to worry about the dark side ever again. It doesn't work like that. People don't work like that. If Luke at age 22-23 is exactly the same person as Luke at age 50, then Luke has to one of the most one-dimensional characters ever written.

Quote

Plus, now knowing this about himself, he now had 10-20 years to reflect and understand that he can be reckless and come to master that aspect of himself.

People who are reckless when they're 18 quite often are still reckless when they're 78.

Quote

 

With this info it has always been my impression that Luke would be the one to usher is a new and fundamentally different Jedi.  

But what we got was a Luke who was simply continuing the traditions that came before.  And in that sense I find Luke's transformation in RotJ invalidated.  He was not the new hope, he was merely the next in line.

 

"New Hope" doesn't mean "ultimate hope that wil last forever". Not in a series of films that doesn't have an ending.

That's the thing... After Return Of The Jedi, Lucas was Done with Star Wars (obviously, he changed his mind later on, but that's besides the point) and gave it an ultra-happy ending that wrapped up the entire universe instead of what he had originally planned. Any Episode VII was going to have to undo a lot of that.

 

Edited by micheldebruyn

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3 hours ago, Inquisitor Tremayne said:

But on the DS at the end of RotJ, Luke fundamentally changed.  He finally saw what his impulses drove him to and what would happen if he let his emotions get the better of him (he would turn to the dark side like Anakin), and he chose to change in that moment he threw his lightsaber away.  He chose to stay to the light side.  THAT is what made him the new hope, that is what made him the hope for the future and to do things differently than what came before.  Plus, now knowing this about himself, he now had 10-20 years to reflect and understand that he can be reckless and come to master that aspect of himself.

With this info it has always been my impression that Luke would be the one to usher in a new and fundamentally different Jedi.  

But what we got was a Luke who was simply continuing the traditions that came before.  And in that sense I find Luke's transformation in RotJ invalidated.  He was not the new hope, he was merely the next in line.

 

2 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

He chose to stay on the light side, at that specific point in time. A moral choice is something you make every time you are faced with a moral dilemma. It's not like he can go "I picked light, so now for the rest of my life I will never have to worry about the dark side ever again. It doesn't work like that. People don't work like that. If Luke at age 22-23 is exactly the same person as Luke at age 50, then Luke has to one of the most one-dimensional characters ever written.

People who are reckless when they're 18 quite often are still reckless when they're 78.

"New Hope" doesn't mean "ultimate hope that wil last forever". Not in a series of films that doesn't have an ending.

That's the thing... After Return Of The Jedi, Lucas was Done with Star Wars (obviously, he changed his mind later on, but that's besides the point) and gave it an ultra-happy ending that wrapped up the entire universe instead of what he had originally planned. Any Episode VII was going to have to undo a lot of that.

 

@micheldebruyn is correct here. As long as someone lives, that person will repeatedly be required to make moral choices, some of them very difficult, some of them quite easy, but the temptation to give in to fear, anger, or hate is ever-present. It's not a one and done thing. So Luke's failure with Ben is not an invalidation of his victory in RotJ. It was a momentary weakness than ended up costing him dearly. 

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