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1 hour ago, jivjov said:

This never happened

When did TLJ invent time travel? Even if you hated the film, it can't affect your childhood unless you let it.

TLJ is the star wars-yist star wars we've gotten out of the Disney era. By a LOOOOOONG shot. There's a reason Johnson's trilogy is my most anticipated Star Wars project. You're probably right about IX feeling really safe by comparison to the brave majesty that was TLJ though.

It's a metaphorical statement don't be so literal:p

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7 hours ago, jivjov said:

This never happened

When did TLJ invent time travel? Even if you hated the film, it can't affect your childhood unless you let it.

TLJ is the star wars-yist star wars we've gotten out of the Disney era. By a LOOOOOONG shot. There's a reason Johnson's trilogy is my most anticipated Star Wars project. You're probably right about IX feeling really safe by comparison to the brave majesty that was TLJ though.

out of his own mouth.
And no it is not star warsy at all. it is terrible. Subverting expectation only works if the new thing is better. it wasnt. it was just a subversion for subversions sake.

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3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

out of his own mouth.
And no it is not star warsy at all. it is terrible. Subverting expectation only works if the new thing is better. it wasnt. it was just a subversion for subversions sake.

Subversion was better than Cvs but git is king of the repos these daysūüėé

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5 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Subversion was better than Cvs but git is king of the repos these daysūüėé

subversion is only good if the thing you subvert with is better. Which we did not get. what we got was all your ideas were garbage and I have no ideas. That was lame. Who was snoke? nobody and he is dead. Where was luke? being a grumpy *******.(which Mark Hamell hated. Who was Rey? Nobody. The resistance is basically wiped out. We are going to subvert everything JJ set up and throw it away and replace it with....NOTHING.

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35 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

subversion is only good if the thing you subvert with is better. Which we did not get. what we got was all your ideas were garbage and I have no ideas. That was lame. Who was snoke? nobody and he is dead. Where was luke? being a grumpy *******.(which Mark Hamell hated. Who was Rey? Nobody. The resistance is basically wiped out. We are going to subvert everything JJ set up and throw it away and replace it with....NOTHING.

I think the mistake you're making  is that JJ Abrams set up anything at all, and that there ever were answers as to who Snoke is or where Rey came from, or why Luke went into exile before the script to The Last Jedi was written.

It is not in JJ Abrams' nature to to make mystery boxes that have anything in them. He likes to build empty boxes for future writers to fill, which tends to not work out very well at all (Lost, Fringe...). Because future writers have better things to do than follow up on plot threads that appear to not actually exist.

Also, the only way my expectations were subverted was Snoke dying.

I didn't expect to see Snoke's backstory because we didn't see the Emperor's either. Star Wars almost never gives you anybody's backstory in the movies. I was expecting Luke to be a grumpy old man who sacrifices himself at the end of the movie, because that is what Mark Hamill is really, really good at playing, and because that is what happens to mentor characters in Joseph Campbell storylines.

Okey, I was expecting Rey to be a Skywalker, but I was really hoping she'd be just this girl, because I'd really like the Star Wars universe be a bit larger than just these two or three families.

 

I have been a fan since 1977, and The Last Jedi is my favourite Star Wars film.  There's stuff in it that doesn't work, but that goes for all the other ones too.

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14 hours ago, Daeglan said:

out of his own mouth.
And no it is not star warsy at all. it is terrible. Subverting expectation only works if the new thing is better. it wasnt. it was just a subversion for subversions sake.

Having some disagreements with where the character went doesn't mean he hated it. Oh, and you know he walked that back after the film came out and he saw the final product, right?

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5 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

I have been a fan since 1977, and The Last Jedi is my favourite Star Wars film.  There's stuff in it that doesn't work, but that goes for all the other ones too.

I also enjoy The Last Jedi; Poe's attack on the dreadnought, the fact that Rey is not linked to a grand lineage, Kylo Ren being able to defeat his master in which I thought was a clever scene and that it was the heroes that made things worse (Finn and Rose going on an adventure and being mavericks rather than listening to their commander).

 

Plus the hyperdrive scene!

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7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

subversion is only good if the thing you subvert with is better. Which we did not get. what we got was all your ideas were garbage and I have no ideas. That was lame. Who was snoke? nobody and he is dead. Where was luke? being a grumpy *******.(which Mark Hamell hated. Who was Rey? Nobody. The resistance is basically wiped out. We are going to subvert everything JJ set up and throw it away and replace it with....NOTHING.

My joke seems to have gone over your head, here's how to make sense of it 

Subversion

Cvs

git

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On 7/26/2019 at 3:31 PM, Daeglan said:

They made Luke an old a hole and theyade that change off screen and it didnt make sense. Think about it. Thw guy who refused to kill his father even after all he did was gonna kill his nephew? Really? I dont buy it.

Counterpoint: Luke ran off to save his aunt and uncle on an impulse, he rushed off to save Han and Leia despite Yoda and Ben's warnings, and he did flip out on Father before coming to his senses. Going to confront his nephew (in a scene that is the very definition of Unreliable Narrator) on impulse in the middle of the night before going "Wait, what am I doing?!?" seems perfectly in line with the Luke of old.

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3 hours ago, Desslok said:

Counterpoint: Luke ran off to save his aunt and uncle on an impulse, he rushed off to save Han and Leia despite Yoda and Ben's warnings, and he did flip out on Father before coming to his senses. Going to confront his nephew (in a scene that is the very definition of Unreliable Narrator) on impulse in the middle of the night before going "Wait, what am I doing?!?" seems perfectly in line with the Luke of old.

Problem is this all happened off screen. And even that seen as you said is unreliable. Soo yeah we have luke who has run away and changed as a character only we dont get to see the growth. We just get to see him be a jerk.

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2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Problem is this all happened off screen. And even that seen as you said is unreliable. Soo yeah we have luke who has run away and changed as a character only we dont get to see the growth. We just get to see him be a jerk.

No it isn‚Äôt. Every one of those instances we see happening on screen. We see Luke run off and jump into his speeder and go to the farm. We see him run off to Bespin. We see him lose it when Vader threatens to turn Leia. And we see him confront his nephew (from three different points of view in fact). None of this is ‚Äúoff screen‚ÄĚ. What we don‚Äôt see is Luke‚Äôs growth from RotJ through the fall of his academy.¬†

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2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No it isn‚Äôt. Every one of those instances we see happening on screen. We see Luke run off and jump into his speeder and go to the farm. We see him run off to Bespin. We see him lose it when Vader threatens to turn Leia. And we see him confront his nephew (from three different points of view in fact). None of this is ‚Äúoff screen‚ÄĚ. What we don‚Äôt see is Luke‚Äôs growth from RotJ through the fall of his academy.¬†

We see a scene out of context. That tells us NOTHING. So yes all the character growth that led to that moment occurred off screen.  Basically we have Luke "Attacking the darkness." Then we have Kylo killed everyone at the academy maybe? not clear... and who the **** are the knights of Renn? what role did Snoke play in all this?  SO no none of his character developement happened on screen. In fact we have no real idea why he is even on Ach To... none of the character development has happened on screen. And from what I can tell JJ had plans that he allowed Rian Johnson to throw away and do his own thing. Only his own thing tossed all the character development we had in EP 7 because we are going to subvert expectations. This is why so many in the fandom really hate Ep 8. They excepted Ep 7 with the expectation that we would get some answers in EP 8. We didn't. we were told our questions were stupid. Look a bunch of characters making nonsensical choices because plot.

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Posted (edited)

Rule #1 of JJ Abrams projects: the mysteries don't have answers. If you ever get ansers, then that will be because some other writers made them up to fit the set-up as best they could. This has a history of not working out well at all.

Abrams had no plans for Episode VIII because he had only ever planned to do just one movie and be done with it. 

If Ep. VIII didn't follow up on perceived set-up in Ep. VII, that is not on Ryan Johnson. 

 

And the Knights of Renn have always seemed to be no more than some non-Force-sensitive lackey's of Kylo's.

Also, people in 2019 look at the incredibly vast amount of information we now have available about every single last bit character with 1 second of screen time in the original trilogy, and forget that this informationwas created many years after Return Of The Jedi came out, and that back in 1983 the Emperor didn't even have a name, nevermind a backstory, as far as anybody other than Lucas himself was concerned. 

Edited by micheldebruyn
spelling

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6 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

Rule #1 of JJ Abrams projects: the mysteries don't have answers. If you ever get ansers, then that will be because some other writers made them up to fit the set-up as best they could. This has a history of not working out well at all.

Abrams had no plans for Episode VIII because he had only ever planned to do just one movie and be done with it. 

If Ep. VIII didn't follow up on perceived set-up in Ep. VII, that is not on Ryan Johnson. 

 

And the Knights of Renn have always seemed to be no more than some non-Force-sensitive lackey's of Kylo's.

Also, people in 2019 look at the incredibly vast amount of information we now have available about every single last bit character with 1 second of screen time in the original trilogy, and forget that this informationwas created many years after Return Of The Jedi came out, and that back in 1983 the Emperor didn't even have a name, nevermind a backstory, as far as anybody other than Lucas himself was concerned. 

Except dropping threads in storytelling tends to be bad. As it causes a lot of fans to go WTF

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3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Except dropping threads in storytelling tends to be bad. As it causes a lot of fans to go WTF

It's less cut and dried when it's  not actually a storytelling thread but only the illusion of one that nobody had any ideas for to begin with.

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5 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

It's less cut and dried when it's  not actually a storytelling thread but only the illusion of one that nobody had any ideas for to begin with.

Which is bad writing. 

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17 hours ago, Daeglan said:

We see a scene out of context. That tells us NOTHING. So yes all the character growth that led to that moment occurred off screen.  Basically we have Luke "Attacking the darkness." Then we have Kylo killed everyone at the academy maybe? not clear... and who the **** are the knights of Renn? what role did Snoke play in all this?  SO no none of his character developement happened on screen. In fact we have no real idea why he is even on Ach To... none of the character development has happened on screen. And from what I can tell JJ had plans that he allowed Rian Johnson to throw away and do his own thing. Only his own thing tossed all the character development we had in EP 7 because we are going to subvert expectations. This is why so many in the fandom really hate Ep 8. They excepted Ep 7 with the expectation that we would get some answers in EP 8. We didn't. we were told our questions were stupid. Look a bunch of characters making nonsensical choices because plot.

The background of the Knights of Ren  is going to be released shortly. Secondly, We are explicitly told by Han why Luke went to Ahch-To in TFA. He was looking for the first Jedi Temple. The First Jedi Temple was on Ahch-To. Luke went there to  essentially "retire" and planned on dying there, letting the Jedi die with him. This too is explicitly stated by Luke in TLJ. Most people's complaints are that Luke didn't seem to be "in character" because they expected him to  have been this all powerful, and all wise Jedi Master who would never have acted so rashly when he had drawn his lightsaber against Ben. Yet, that's never been established in canon. Yes, he was very wise and powerful in Legends continuity, and that's what put people off in TLJ. They expected him  to be  depicted how he was in the old EU. However, it is actually much more in character for him to let his emotions get the better of him, if only briefly, because that is what routinely happened throughout the OT. He was reckless, and impulsive by nature. He had to struggle to keep his impulses under control. That's who Luke is. 

If he had been shown to suddenly be this all wise Master who could do no wrong, that would have been out of character since there would have been no story arc establishing where this great wisdom and came from. 

Now, given that the Sequels are coming to a close, be sure that there will be more books and such detailing the time frame between RotJ and TFA that will fill in those "missing details" you believe are so important. Lucasfilm has kept that period pretty much left alone in order to give the film writers and directors a pretty clean slate in which to tell their tales without being beholden to too much locked in information. It's why they jettisoned the EU from canon to begin with. 

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Back to the original topic:

I would like to see more region source books, especially with modular encounters.

If they want a few new species in those books, that would be nice, but I'm not sure if they need more gear (we have plenty).

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1 hour ago, salamar_dree said:

Oh, and now that the various Crafting Rules have been "in the wild" for a while, I'd like to see updated/corrected crafting compiled into a single book.

I'm not sure the crafting rules apart from starships/vehicles need all that much work. I haven't looked closely at droids... actually I've only looked at lightsaber armor cybernetics alchemical talismans and starships closely although once upon a time I did use the rules to create a high end blaster pistol.  I'll complain that ther wasn't a lot of details in the cybernetics but I'm not sure it needs it.

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7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Most people's complaints are that Luke didn't seem to be "in character" because they expected him to  have been this all powerful, and all wise Jedi Master who would never have acted so rashly when he had drawn his lightsaber against Ben. Yet, that's never been established in canon. Yes, he was very wise and powerful in Legends continuity, and that's what put people off in TLJ. They expected him  to be  depicted how he was in the old EU. However, it is actually much more in character for him to let his emotions get the better of him, if only briefly, because that is what routinely happened throughout the OT. He was reckless, and impulsive by nature. He had to struggle to keep his impulses under control. That's who Luke is. 

If he had been shown to suddenly be this all wise Master who could do no wrong, that would have been out of character since there would have been no story arc establishing where this great wisdom and came from. 

I think it's more sensible to extrapolate Luke's character arc from ANH to RotJ to become a wise master in 20 years instead of stucking with the same flaws he had in his teen years...

From a certain point of view

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17 hours ago, Rimsen said:

I think it's more sensible to extrapolate Luke's character arc from ANH to RotJ to become a wise master in 20 years instead of stucking with the same flaws he had in his teen years...

From a certain point of view

Key phrase there being, "from a certain point of view". Yes, with age comes a certain amount of wisdom; usually. However, as Yoda said, "The best teacher, Failure is."

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39 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Key phrase there being, "from a certain point of view". Yes, with age comes a certain amount of wisdom; usually. However, as Yoda said, "The best teacher, Failure is."

Only if you learn the lesson. I dont think he learned the lesson. And we didnt see anything about what darkness he saw in Ben. I saw darkness in him so drew my lightsaber to kill him was the solution? 

But in either case we did not see important details of what changed Luke the optimist to Luke the Hermit who ran away. 

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22 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Only if you learn the lesson. I dont think he learned the lesson. And we didnt see anything about what darkness he saw in Ben. I saw darkness in him so drew my lightsaber to kill him was the solution? 

But in either case we did not see important details of what changed Luke the optimist to Luke the Hermit who ran away. 

What changed Luke into the "Hermit who ran away" was his failure with Ben. This is explicitly stated in both movies. 

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