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No more sections for huge ships?

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They've said they are changing up the rules and design to be better balanced. I would imagine some of those changes are an integral part. Single damage deck and no indications of cards leads me to the same conclusion regarding no sections moving forward.

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Yes, it seems they only have a fore and aft section in the same sense that every other ship does, with a couple of exceptions:

• It looks like turrets can be mounted to either the fore or aft half of the ship. This is an interesting addition.

• The Shield/Energy counter has four dials, so apparently shields and energy apply to fore and aft halves of the ship.

Other than that, it seems they'll follow the same conventions as other sizes of ships. Curious what this means for energy regen (guessing 1 per section by default?), maneuver difficulty (energy cost and bonus?) and stress/ion/tractor tokens (energy cost for reds and no effect for orange?). Very keen to see the rules here.

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2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Yes, it seems they only have a fore and aft section in the same sense that every other ship does, with a couple of exceptions:

• It looks like turrets can be mounted to either the fore or aft half of the ship. This is an interesting addition.

• The Shield/Energy counter has four dials, so apparently shields and energy apply to fore and aft halves of the ship.

Other than that, it seems they'll follow the same conventions as other sizes of ships. Curious what this means for energy regen (guessing 1 per section by default?), maneuver difficulty (energy cost and bonus?) and stress/ion/tractor tokens (energy cost for reds and no effect for orange?). Very keen to see the rules here.

Pretty sure the shield and energy trackers are just double digit, as in tens and units. It's not 1 Fore and 9 Aft, it's 19. The (single) ship cards only have one shield and one energy value printed.

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6 hours ago, rawbean said:

Pretty sure the shield and energy trackers are just double digit, as in tens and units. It's not 1 Fore and 9 Aft, it's 19. The (single) ship cards only have one shield and one energy value printed.

I have kind of a hard time believing that either a) they have a whole separate dial to represent the numbers 1 and 0, or b) energy or shields can go above 20.

They definitely represent two separate things. 19 shields?! That's madness.

Granted, they only have a single printed value, but I would contend that this could just as easily be a restriction on either a) how high the total energy or shield value can go, or b) even more simply, how high each shield or energy value can go. You'll notice both numbers are single digits even on the CR90's ship card.

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9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

 The game doesn't scale linearly in size, more like exponentially in time spent. 

I never felt like that was the case.  I always allotted 1 hour of play per 100 points in 1.0.  Granted, set up and break down always take longer, too.  OTOH, since I play at home, eliminated ships and dials could be put away during the course of the game.  Also, we never played to the bitter end; the losing player would concede.

9 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

There's room to clean it up. In first edition epic, a crippled Fore would just end up as this invulnerable battering ram. It could just ram everything to death without consequence. Getting rid of that actually makes sense.

I dunno.  I kinda liked the crippled ship effect.  I hope there is still some method for battle damage.  The idea that a CR-90 is totally fine until its not (and then just pops like a giant TIE fighter) seems silly.

3 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I wouldn’t mind if sections were gone. Epic was fun but cumbersome. This looks like they’re working on making it all around better and more accessible to play.

Yeah, I never felt this.  It was a single evening's entertainment.  Sometimes that meant 2 hours; sometimes 4.  And again, if things were going south fast for one player, surrender was an option.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I dunno.  I kinda liked the crippled ship effect.  I hope there is still some method for battle damage.  The idea that a CR-90 is totally fine until its not (and then just pops like a giant TIE fighter) seems silly.

I imagine huge-ship crits will be nasty to make up for this.

"Lose all of your energy"

"You cannot recover shields"

"Lose all charges on equipped upgrades"

"You cannot coordinate or be reinforced"

More thematic than half of your ship going AWOL IMO

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I dunno.  I kinda liked the crippled ship effect.  I hope there is still some method for battle damage.  The idea that a CR-90 is totally fine until its not (and then just pops like a giant TIE fighter) seems silly.

 

I'm hoping that the ship cards are double-sided, with the back half having stats for a damaged ship once you suffer enough hull damage. That would allow a crippled mechanic without letting me ram your Gozanti to death with my crippled Fore section.

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26 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I never felt like that was the case.  I always allotted 1 hour of play per 100 points in 1.0.  Granted, set up and break down always take longer, too.  OTOH, since I play at home, eliminated ships and dials could be put away during the course of the game.  Also, we never played to the bitter end; the losing player would concede.

I dunno.  I kinda liked the crippled ship effect.  I hope there is still some method for battle damage.  The idea that a CR-90 is totally fine until its not (and then just pops like a giant TIE fighter) seems silly.

Yeah, I never felt this.  It was a single evening's entertainment.  Sometimes that meant 2 hours; sometimes 4.  And again, if things were going south fast for one player, surrender was an option.

Yeah. Epic was cumbersome. +1. Maybe not for you, but for many people this was the case. 

Set up also took much longer. one 300 pt game, with rules look ups for huge ships, setting up, picking things, finding things, putting things away, having a break in the middle took from 100ptper1hr x 3 => 3 hrs, + extra time, usually meant an 6-8 hour day of setting up break, cleaning up etc. 

And we did play to the bitter end, cuz it was fun to see what the final thing would be. Surrender wasn't an option! hahaha. And that was kinda good, it meant we were well-fought to the bitter end

--

Yea, crippled section is kinda nice. 

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46 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, I never felt this.  It was a single evening's entertainment.  Sometimes that meant 2 hours; sometimes 4.  And again, if things were going south fast for one player, surrender was an option.

And that’s just fine. I think we’ve all had our own experiences based on the games we did.

I always really enjoyed epic play, but i did feel it suffered from some clunkiness. The double card ships took up a lot of card space (yes I eventually figured it out and started printing lists so cards wouldn’t get lost but that’s besides the point :) ) and the fire and aft damage decks always got mixed up if you weren’t careful.

I get that overwhelming odds can result in concession, and that’s fine. That really wasn’t our issue. It was very difficult to justify playing it unless I was desperate to put a big ship on the table when the game was “normal X-Wing, but bigger”.

I am extremely excited for the new 2.0 epic with the scenarios - it’ll make it feel like a whole new game. And I like the things they are doing to cut down on the clunk - winged formations are awesome (still need to see how we handle bumps) and I really like the mechanics of that flight lead upgrade card system. Don’t misunderstand my “epic was fun but” from 1.0 as hesitation about 2.0. I’m super excited for what’s coming, and I plan on taking epic battles to my LGS for sure.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I have kind of a hard time believing that either a) they have a whole separate dial to represent the numbers 1 and 0, or b) energy or shields can go above 20.

They definitely represent two separate things. 19 shields?! That's madness.

Granted, they only have a single printed value, but I would contend that this could just as easily be a restriction on either a) how high the total energy or shield value can go, or b) even more simply, how high each shield or energy value can go. You'll notice both numbers are single digits even on the CR90's ship card.

Fair point, but with only one ship card and one shield/energy stat I don't see how it could reasonably be fore and aft sections. How about this: left dial is how many shields/energy will be generated each round, right dial is current total. Red/blue maneuvers mean shifting one (or both) of the left-hand (amount generated) dials up or down, maybe within a specific range (0 to 2, say). EDIT: or ****, -4 to +4, you could finally simulate transferring shield energy to the engines in X-Wing!

Edited by rawbean

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1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I have kind of a hard time believing that either a) they have a whole separate dial to represent the numbers 1 and 0, or b) energy or shields can go above 20.

They definitely represent two separate things. 19 shields?! That's madness.

The thing is, if the tracker was meant to track separate values for fore and aft sections, it would be labeled as such, there would be icons indicating which number was which, and it would be formatted with the numbers front and back, not side to side.  With the way the tracker is currently designed, I’d have an easier time believing it tracked shields and energy for port and starboard sections than fore and aft.

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49 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. Epic was cumbersome. +1. Maybe not for you, but for many people this was the case. 

Set up also took much longer. one 300 pt game, with rules look ups for huge ships, setting up, picking things, finding things, putting things away, having a break in the middle took from 100ptper1hr x 3 => 3 hrs, + extra time, usually meant an 6-8 hour day of setting up break, cleaning up etc. 

And we did play to the bitter end, cuz it was fun to see what the final thing would be. Surrender wasn't an option! hahaha. And that was kinda good, it meant we were well-fought to the bitter end

Wow.  Yeah, the only time Epic took 8 hours was the time we played 1000 points per side.

I guess my average night of Epic takes about 4 hours.  We start at about 6 pm and end at about 10.  I guess one big difference might be that I'm playing with my brother, so we're shooting the breeze the whole time and so even set up and break down is part of the social fun time.  And, at about 9:30, we are pretty content to declare a winner.

28 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

And that’s just fine. I think we’ve all had our own experiences based on the games we did.

I always really enjoyed epic play, but i did feel it suffered from some clunkiness. The double card ships took up a lot of card space (yes I eventually figured it out and started printing lists so cards wouldn’t get lost but that’s besides the point :) ) and the fire and aft damage decks always got mixed up if you weren’t careful.

I'm so glad there is one damage deck for all large ships.  I hated needing 5 different damage decks around depending on what ship you played.

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29 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

The thing is, if the tracker was meant to track separate values for fore and aft sections, it would be labeled as such, there would be icons indicating which number was which, and it would be formatted with the numbers front and back, not side to side.  With the way the tracker is currently designed, I’d have an easier time believing it tracked shields and energy for port and starboard sections than fore and aft.

I mean, that’s kind of true but I can’t imagine how they’d actually implement that or why.

31 minutes ago, rawbean said:

Fair point, but with only one ship card and one shield/energy stat I don't see how it could reasonably be fore and aft sections. How about this: left dial is how many shields/energy will be generated each round, right dial is current total. Red/blue maneuvers mean shifting one (or both) of the left-hand (amount generated) dials up or down, maybe within a specific range (0 to 2, say). EDIT: or ****, -4 to +4, you could finally simulate transferring shield energy to the engines in X-Wing!

Actually this seems quite believable and very interesting. Do blues and you’re increasing your regen rate! Of course, that limits your maneuverability so it’ll have to come down, and you can only use so much per turn anyway, but I like the way it makes you plan ahead (like Armada but not so bad).

Not sure how easily you should be able to change shield regen rate though...

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37 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Actually this seems quite believable and very interesting. Do blues and you’re increasing your regen rate! Of course, that limits your maneuverability so it’ll have to come down, and you can only use so much per turn anyway, but I like the way it makes you plan ahead (like Armada but not so bad).

Not sure how easily you should be able to change shield regen rate though...

I suspect the blue maneuvers on the dial affect the energy regen rate, but I think it'll probably be a fixed value. Meanwhile, the red maneuvers will probably require you to spend energy to execute. I'm assuming Energy will work in a way similar to charge tokens and the Force, with you either spending energy to refresh charge/shield tokens and regenerating a fixed amount per round.

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I mean, that’s kind of true but I can’t imagine how they’d actually implement that or why.

Could be more shields and hull is a balance to keep the huge ships alive a bit longer. Biggest failure in 1.0 was that huge ships just died far too quickly for the points invested in them. Regen as an action might be gone too. Honestly though, with so little solid information we're stuck guessing and making up our own design based on the few pictures we have. Some of us are going to be wrong. I'm totally in standby mode until we have something more substantial.

 

Edited by LagJanson
multitasking posts... bad form

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Having more flat health and little/no regen would be great for huge ships. In 1.0 they had this problem where they melted to alpha strikes but were impossible to kill with lower damage-output ships. 

I can't really tell anything about them from looking at the article, and even the movement tool is hidden from our view. So I'm going to refrain from any more speculation, and even though it's one of my least favorite things in the world, I'll just have to be patient... 

we really don't have a lot of information about epic ships other than that they're pretty different from 1.0 

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I sort of liked the idea of ships having different sections. It was like the Hardpoints from the space battles of Empire at War. Do you want to take out the engines or the guns? I can see the necessity for simplification or abstraction. I did think that it would have been better if once one side is crippled all the damage automatically goes to the other side.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

• The Shield/Energy counter has four dials, so apparently shields and energy apply to fore and aft halves of the ship.

I think that is only to allow for double digit numbers. For example between the fore and aft sections on a Raider in 1.0, it has 16 hull and 10 shields. If they are combining the sections, it makes sense they would combine those values, and this counter seems to allow for any ship and combination of upgrades up to 99.

Edited by BVRCH

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On 7/16/2019 at 12:58 AM, PhantomFO said:

There's room to clean it up. In first edition epic, a crippled Fore would just end up as this invulnerable battering ram. It could just ram everything to death without consequence. Getting rid of that actually makes sense.

Honestly, I hope they remove the whole “if a huge ship touches you, you die” thing in favor of actually being aware of your surroundings like squadrons in Armada.

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34 minutes ago, Matanui3 said:

Honestly, I hope they remove the whole “if a huge ship touches you, you die” thing in favor of actually being aware of your surroundings like squadrons in Armada.

Eh, I kinda think it was a good thing that small ships had to watch out.

Otherwise, I would always just get bumped.  Next turn, I'd swing my snubfighter around with a red reversing maneuver and pound the huge at close range even without mods since it has no evade.

Having to think where the Huge was going to be next turn is a significant piece of tactics.

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