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Kehl_Aecea

Every dog has it's day...

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Alright, we all know there are some... less than stellar ships in standard. You know the ones I'm talking about, the ships with some AMAZING abilities or potential, but just gobble up FAR too many points to be worth taking over two different ships. So, now with Epic we're going to have 150% more points to throw around which is great because not everyone who wants to play a larger game has huge ships.

In my opinion, K-Wings and TIE Punishers are going to rear their ugly heads as absolute beasts once more. Very curious to hear everyone's opinion :D

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

In my opinion, K-Wings and TIE Punishers are going to rear their ugly heads as absolute beasts once more. Very curious to hear everyone's opinion :D

Punishers are already solidly not bad and the K-Wing only suffers as everyone else does from overpriced missiles and poor rebel crew/gunner options.

Honestly, even K-Wings with Sabine have done well if I remember correctly.

Passive Sensors will definitely push Punishers into the quite good camp, and the reductions to Miranda and Esege will probably get them to the table a bit more.

I've always thought that Miranda + HSG + Bomblet is a very solid use of 55 points. You get to regen a shield every turn that you don't need to SLAM, and once in a while you can use that shield do reload your bomblets. It doesn't matter that you're doing no damage because you're focus-stripping anyway. Alternatively, VTG lets her regen two shields per turn, and no, she's still not doing any damage, but good luck killing her very fast! Still just 56 points but sets up some area control that you can't just ignore.

What I do think will really excel in the 500-pt meta are the Heavy Laser Cannon and Veteran Turret Gunner. Anything that depends on getting a target will now have a much easier time because of how many there will be on the board. Similarly, Vizago and Jabba may actually be worth taking. Ketsu crew, ISB Slicers, and Death Troopers will have a very meaningful effect on the game. Leia, Saw, Magva, Jendon, Howl, Sloane, Serissu, Drea, Kath, Jerjerrod and Freaking TARKIN will be insane. Sinker will also get some serious work done, and Sear with TA-175 will just be silly kinds of good (hmmm, 5 calculates, should I spend one for crack shot?).

On the other hand, Palpatine will be kind of lame, Soontir won't live 3 turns (except maybe docked to a Gozanti or as a Wing Leader), Defenders will be more easily focus-fired, Benthic, Cassian, and Sai won't do that much, Vader crew becomes a bit of a waste (except maybe on a Raider, ooooo), Supernatural Aces and AS Guri will have to work a lot harder to justify their costs, and control effects/token stacks will just do a lot less against such a large number of ships. Rebel Han and Resistance Chewbacca will be REALLY good though.

It's just a very different kind of game.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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I think what is going to make certain ships shine isn't really just extra points, but it's the nature of scenarios.  I have played a lot of larger point games and played a lot of scenarios, especially for the Battle for Greyskull  Base and the Battle for Ord Gorum campaigns.  People who aren't used to larger point games and scenarios tend to see all the points they can have and bulk up on a lot of aces or expensive named ships.   This tends to be a mistake as those that focus on more generics usually focus fire down everything else pretty well.

The idea of scoring points beyond just killing ships is also of primary importance.  You start to see ships that are made for specific purposes that really start to shine when you are able to use them for that role.  Tie Punishers are beasts if you are trying to slog through an area and survive, as long as you have an escort to help keep them alive.   Same can probably go for K-wings as they can SLAM behind enemy lines and go for objectives.  Scyks are also pretty good as interceptors in these types of games.  Kihraxz Fighters are also even better as they have a great dial and a lot of firepower for the points.   I can even see Lambdas doing well.

Having specific needs for ships and needing to do numerous things in one battle will make diversity a good thing.  You will need to protect certain things on your side as you try to blow up other things on the other.   You will need to have fast ships that can avoid the enemy and then either grab items or engage with certain targets.   Tie Interceptors are going to be great for this.  V1's are going to be great, too, especially for their ability to carry ordnance.  Tie Aggressors might actually have a home, as well.  

On 7/15/2019 at 11:16 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Soontir won't live 3 turns (except maybe docked to a Gozanti or as a Wing Leader)

Yes, Soontir Fel will finally live beyond the first salvo of a larger point game....as a Wing Leader.  

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One ship I am not sure on is the Kimogila.  In larger games, it will get to use the bullseye arc more, but there are other assault ships for fewer points.   Unless you want to thematic with Hutts.

I'm not sure which others, but I am pretty sure Tie Interceptors will have a place, particularly if you have to DO things on the board and need to get around.

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3 hours ago, heychadwick said:

Yes, Soontir Fel will finally live beyond the first salvo of a larger point game....as a Wing Leader.  

I’m curious how effective an Interceptor Wing will be. They still go pop pretty fast, but against more and more attacks, naked green dice get better and better.

You can also damage-share if they make the mistake of shooting at the Wing Leader, but smart players will chip away the wingmen one by one.

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On 7/15/2019 at 8:16 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Alternatively, VTG lets her regen two shields per turn

No it doesn't. Miranda is hard capped by her own ability to regenerating back to 1 Shield. She has to be unshielded to regen one and after her first reduced power attack she would be shielded again...

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20 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

No it doesn't. Miranda is hard capped by her own ability to regenerating back to 1 Shield. She has to be unshielded to regen one and after her first reduced power attack she would be shielded again...

Yeah, two or three other people have already pointed that out. That's okay, HSG is still very good on her.

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10 hours ago, heychadwick said:

One ship I am not sure on is the Kimogila.  In larger games, it will get to use the bullseye arc more, but there are other assault ships for fewer points.   Unless you want to thematic with Hutts.

I'm not sure which others, but I am pretty sure Tie Interceptors will have a place, particularly if you have to DO things on the board and need to get around.

I currently fly just 2 generics with crack in my 200pts Scum list. This crack bullseye is nasty (one-shotted Soontir recently). And with 300 points on the other side they have a higher chance to bullseye. They also get around fast, finally a Scum mid line bread and butter fighter with 3hard (on a medium base!) and still knifefight hard1, albeit red. Wish though they had boost, I mean basically they are just a huge engine.

9 hps is tanky but only 1 agi, so I guess they melt too fast with 300pts of enemies.

They suffer from the red BR, being easy to block and still pay a bit too much for the reload (reloading just one charge is not worth it on a 3dice gun, and with 300pts doubtful they ever live long enough to get to) and ordnance slot on an already hard hitting 3dice gun (diminishing returns). If there are other targets or objectives though, that the M12L can do their brutal work.

 

As you rightly mentioned some of the support crews and pilots will get pretty insane, wonder if they cost an extra tax, if one switches to "Epic"in the FFG  squadbuilder?

 

15 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Gavin Darklighter: helping his squad generate crits is more meaningful with more squad members. Just like Etahn A'batt before him.

People have tested fringe lists with him and Z95s, but within 200 he was still not pulling enough weight. In 300 though! However he still has his pretty useless linked actions, boost into linked red target lock which not works at range 1...at his cost...come on FFG. 

---

Scyks ditching out tractors for the following up by the friendly hitters. Maybe even Proach might be worth it.

Speaking of MGTs, Seevor is given, maybe finally Yushyn could play a role, with more potential reloaders around, however he is soo fast on his TIE dial, while the Scum munitions carriers often have other dials. If you have MGTs on board stick Ahaav in, making targetting priorities worse for the enemy and having a nasty surprise hidden in your masses for the enemy bigger bases.

 

Gold Squadron torrents? Those things are cheap enough and can live annoyingly long, eating shots. Sinker will be sick, as mentioned above. 104th Arcs are slightly undercosted, and in 300pts you get to trigger Tail Gunners (46) as there are enough targets. Cody is evil as well (45). Not sure if the Arcs can earn their points back, on the other hand only 42-46pts. I would certainly not take 7th fleet gunner, far too expensive for one time (unless "reloaded by disarm) 1 extra red.

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21 hours ago, heychadwick said:

Tie Punishers are beasts if you are trying to slog through an area and survive, as long as you have an escort to help keep them alive. 

I dread to think what a large punisher group with trajectory simulators could do to anything trying to engage them head-on.

9 hours ago, Managarmr said:

As you rightly mentioned some of the support crews and pilots will get pretty insane, wonder if they cost an extra tax, if one switches to "Epic"in the FFG  squadbuilder?

I'd like to think they'll use that option. Some stuff varies wildly once 'unlimited range' or 'every ship' comes into play in epic.

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11 hours ago, Managarmr said:

I currently fly just 2 generics with crack in my 200pts Scum list. This crack bullseye is nasty (one-shotted Soontir recently). And with 300 points on the other side they have a higher chance to bullseye. They also get around fast, finally a Scum mid line bread and butter fighter with 3hard (on a medium base!) and still knifefight hard1, albeit red. Wish though they had boost, I mean basically they are just a huge engine.

9 hps is tanky but only 1 agi, so I guess they melt too fast with 300pts of enemies.

They suffer from the red BR, being easy to block and still pay a bit too much for the reload (reloading just one charge is not worth it on a 3dice gun, and with 300pts doubtful they ever live long enough to get to) and ordnance slot on an already hard hitting 3dice gun (diminishing returns). If there are other targets or objectives though, that the M12L can do their brutal work.

I really should try one again.  I really do think that they will need to drop to incredibly cheap prices to make people think about using them.   I think FFG will need to do that for some ships just for a quarter and bump them back to normal.  I used one before and did OK with it.  It did it's job alright.  I have a list that I used just a Gand Findsman that the Kilogima could replace, but they dropped the points in all the other ships in the list so much I was able to bump it up to a named guy that will do well.   Still, I might try to see what the Kimo can do in the list.  It would fit in with the Hutt theme better.

Quote

As you rightly mentioned some of the support crews and pilots will get pretty insane, wonder if they cost an extra tax, if one switches to "Epic"in the FFG  squadbuilder?

Ohhhh......I never thought of that!   They actually could do something where if it's a larger point game the people that boost everyone might get more expensive.  Yes.....I can see that.  That could be really cool.

Quote

@Parakitor said something about using Gavin Darklighter

People have tested fringe lists with him and Z95s, but within 200 he was still not pulling enough weight. In 300 though! However he still has his pretty useless linked actions, boost into linked red target lock which not works at range 1...at his cost...come on FFG. 

J-bot has a nasty list that uses Gavin that beats quite a few lists around my local store.  It's a bunch of Z-95's and a HWK.  Of course, I am realizing that my store meta is a LOT different than others, it seems.  Few people take a list with less than 4 ships.  So, those Z-95's rip things up!

In Epic he will be an utter beast!  I think he would be targeted pretty fast.  Gavin is going to have to be in a Wing to live long, I suspect.  Him in a wing of E-wings?  That sound pretty terrifying to me!   Really scary.

Quote

Scyks ditching out tractors for the following up by the friendly hitters. Maybe even Proach might be worth it.

Ummm....my  favorite list of 2nd Ed involves a Tractor Beam Scyk.  It's won more games than not.  It's  brutal!  It also just got cheaper, so I made it even better.  It's that Hutt list I mentioned earlier:

Laetin w/ Tractor Beam and Crackshot

Zuckuss w/ 4-LOM, FCS, and Crackshot

3 x Cartel Marauder Kihraxz Fighters

Kihraxz in the front.  Scyk in the middle or the sides.  Zuckuss in the rear.  The main fighters have hard turns and can easily all turn to face any enemy coming from the side.  Go for a joust.  Scyk goes for the Tractor Beam.  If he hits, I either throw someone who hasn't shot yet onto a rock or just reduce his Agility and let the Kihraxz light him up.  One Kihraxz is usually shot up and then the Kihraxz usually go first in the next turn.  I put the one forward to bump and cause a big mess.  People often fire at Zuckuss, who is a tank.   The next round, people forget that Zuckuss can do a zero stop and his whole main purpose is just to block people trying to get out of there.    The rest of my ships are knife fighters with Talon Rolls and 1 sharp turns.   I just try to move and still get an action and shot while the opponent isn't used to bumping or so many ships.  Rips people to shreds.  

I might try to swap out Zuckuss with a Kimogila to try it out.  Maybe the Bullseye will make him more viscious?

Quote

Gold Squadron torrents? Those things are cheap enough and can live annoyingly long, eating shots. Sinker will be sick, as mentioned above. 104th Arcs are slightly undercosted, and in 300pts you get to trigger Tail Gunners (46) as there are enough targets. Cody is evil as well (45). Not sure if the Arcs can earn their points back, on the other hand only 42-46pts. I would certainly not take 7th fleet gunner, far too expensive for one time (unless "reloaded by disarm) 1 extra red

The one thing about Torrents is that you have to find someone that has actually bought a lot.  Most people in my area got into the Republic because they didn't have to buy too many ships.  

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Posted (edited)

The problem I see coming is epic and standard are two different games with one set of points. Things like admiral Sloan’s and Gavin darklighter will be bonkers in epic, but will ffg increase their points because they are not as good in standard? Putting charges on everything or ability only work in range three would fix that but then you are rereleasing cards. XWing 3.0 anyone?

Edited by BenDay

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5 hours ago, heychadwick said:

It's that Hutt list I mentioned earlier:

 

5 hours ago, heychadwick said:

3 x Cartel Marauder Kihraxz Fighters

:(:(:( 

When Black Sun ships (which the Kihraxz is) get considered as "Hutt" in theme I wish even harder that the rest of the actual Black Sun ships and the Mandal Motors made Dunelizard (for the Hutts) were in game.

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1 hour ago, BenDay said:

The problem I see coming is epic and standard are two different games with one set of points. Things like admiral Sloan’s and Gavin darklighter will be bonkers in epic, but will ffg increase their points because they are not as good in standard? Putting charges on everything or ability only work in range three would fix that but then you are rereleasing cards. XWing 3.0 anyone?

Sloane’s ability is range 0-3

Gavin in arc has to also be to range 3 (p3 Rules Reference)

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7 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

Sloane’s ability is range 0-3

Sort of. The friendly ship she triggers from has to be with in that range band. Its destroyer or the stressed target that the trigger ship is attacking can be outside of range 3 of Sloane.

•Admiral Sloane

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4 hours ago, Sasajak said:

Sloane’s ability is range 0-3

Gavin in arc has to also be to range 3 (p3 Rules Reference)

With Gavin the defender is in arc, the attacker can be anywhere they can attack from.  Also it is every defender in Gavin’s arc that is affected by his ability. You can be pedantic if you like but you know that cards like this will be way more valuable in epic and given points based on their use in standard play. 

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5 hours ago, BenDay said:

You can be pedantic if you like but you know that cards like this will be way more valuable in epic and given points based on their use in standard play

You suggested range restrictions, I pointed out, perhaps bluntly, that the cards you mention do have range restrictions.  I’m sorry if you took offence at that - there was no intent of malice or pedantry in my response.

I played Sloane in a 600 point game this week.  She triggered twice, once double stressing an attacker and once for a re-roll (and that was a ship stressed by a K-turn not her ability).  The range restriction was one reason but also, when in range, attackers simply chose to focus on Sloane to avoid her ability triggering (which of course had its own benefit of getting barely damaged Inferno Squadron in range 1 of the Millenium Falcon).  @Hiemfire I was playing the card as written 😉 - re-read it a few times in a vain attempt to check whether she had triggered; it was much harder than I anticipated and I was really trying!  I also took Moff Jerjerrod, no range restriction, let’s just say he and I need to double our efforts.

On the other hand in a different 600 point game with the then 2 point Leia was ridiculous.  No range restriction at all, no negative consequences (like the displeasing Moff), and even just triggering once was a very powerful play.

So @BenDay I can agree with your comment, and support it with anecdotal evidence, that some cards are more valuable in a situation somewhat analogous to second edition Epic.

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Sorry for getting defensive (are we really apologizing on the internet, look how far we have come). My point was simply that both versions of XWing will value upgrades very differently, I could have chosen other cards, like Leia, to illustrate my point better. 

 

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1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

Perhaps put Sloane on a non huge ship?  If you put her on a huge one, it will surely get targeted.

Yeah I’d say she’d be a no go on a huge ship (who knows what tricks they’ll have though? 😊).  She was on a Lambda and a nice juicy target compared to the surrounding TIEs.  Thank goodness for reinforce on the Lambda!

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I ran Etahn (Old Gavin) in 1.0 Epic several times and he was always a beast.  Wingleader Gavin with even just 2 E's to soak up damage will be even better.  It will run you about 180-190 points but that still leaves 185 for 8 Z-95s and 225 for your corvette.

Colonel Jenden will also be crazy.  Round one, your 4 Tie Adv and your 4 Tie Bombers all get their locks and can go into engagement range with all their other actions available.

Another Interesting Combo could be Saw following a Wing of anything.  If they shoot your wing leader, he spreads damage and once they are all damaged, they get Saw's rerolls on attacks.  The smart choice will be to target the wing mates but then that leaves the leader around in the end game.  I am seeing the potential to have Wedge or Luke alive at the end of an Epic game.  That would be a first for me.

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15 hours ago, pickirk01 said:

Colonel Jenden will also be crazy.  Round one, your 4 Tie Adv and your 4 Tie Bombers all get their locks and can go into engagement range with all their other actions available.

Combine with Krennic and Tarkin for maximum effect. You lock a second ship with Jendon that can now be locked by any/all at the flip of a switch. And it can either act as backup if the First-locked ship bolts and runs or a second target after the first is vaporized.

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26 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Combine with Krennic and Tarkin for maximum effect. 

Yeah, I just realized that Krennic finally has a place in Epic/huge ships. Huge ships are likely locking anyway, and if they can lock out to range 4 or 5, that's a huge increase in the range of effect. Plus, two actions per round really helps. Put Optimized Prototype on a wing leader, and that ship will stick around a while to activate the ability many times during the battle.

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