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DarthDarxide

Predictive shot & intimidation

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If an arc-170 with intimidation ends its turn at range 0 of an enemy ship and a jedi in a delta -7 with predictive shot has that same enemy ship in its bullseye, will intimidation take away a die after predictive shot has been chosen?

 

Will these work together or not?

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The first step of defending is determining how many dice to roll based on the ship card. The second step is to resolve abilities that remove/add any dice. But you have two abilities with same timing so you get tochoose the order. 

Step 1: see how many base dice are to be rolled

Step 2: predictive shot will remove some dice... then intimidation removes 1 of the dice 

So yes, it will work. 

 

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I believe the question of this thread heavily intertwine with another rules question I have brought up couple of days ago. The other thread seemed to lean toward the interpretation that obligatory effects (such as Intimidation) should take precedence over decision-based effects (such as Predictive Shot).  

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6 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

I believe the question of this thread heavily intertwine with another rules question I have brought up couple of days ago. The other thread seemed to lean toward the interpretation that obligatory effects (such as Intimidation) should take precedence over decision-based effects (such as Predictive Shot).  

Only if they have the same timing.  These don't.

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i agree with @Maui.. predictive shot sets a limit to the number of dice. when determining the number of defence dice, you take the base agility, add for range, obstruction, subtract for structural damage, intimidation and so on. the amount is limited by predictive shot, so if the amount of dice is larger than the number of hits or crits you have rolled, the defender rolls that number of dice. i would say intimidation always applies before predictive shot, since predictive shot does not add or subtract, it sets a cap.

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I say, let's take the question to its obvious, absurd, ridiculous extreme!

  • Republic player has Anakin with Predictive Shot, and an ARC-170 with Intimidation.
  • Resistance player has Cova Nell, an a MG-100 with Tactical Scrambler.
  • After the activation phase, The ARC is at Range 0 of Cova Nell, who revealed (and executed) a red maneuver.
  • Anakin declares an attack (in bullseye) on Cova Nell at Range 3, obstructed by both an obstacle and the "scrambling" MG-100.
  • Anakin spends a force to activate Predictive Shot.
  • Anakin's attack results in 2 hits.

How many defense dice does Cova Nell roll?

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36 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I say, let's take the question to its obvious, absurd, ridiculous extreme!

  • Republic player has Anakin with Predictive Shot, and an ARC-170 with Intimidation.
  • Resistance player has Cova Nell, an a MG-100 with Tactical Scrambler.
  • After the activation phase, The ARC is at Range 0 of Cova Nell, who revealed (and executed) a red maneuver.
  • Anakin declares an attack (in bullseye) on Cova Nell at Range 3, obstructed by both an obstacle and the "scrambling" MG-100.
  • Anakin spends a force to activate Predictive Shot.
  • Anakin's attack results in 2 hits.

How many defense dice does Cova Nell roll?

I would say 2.

Cova has 1 base.

Her ability triggered +1 (2)

Range 3 +1 (3)

Tactical Scrambler +1 (4)

Obstacle +1 (5)

Intimidation -1 (4)

Predictive shot then limits her to a maximum of 2.

 

The card ability doesn't kick in until it is determined how many defense dice would be rolled normally IMO

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40 minutes ago, Dvierow said:

I would say 2.

Cova has 1 base.

Her ability triggered +1 (2)

Range 3 +1 (3)

Tactical Scrambler +1 (4)

Obstacle +1 (5)

Intimidation -1 (4)

Predictive shot then limits her to a maximum of 2.

 

The card ability doesn't kick in until it is determined how many defense dice would be rolled normally IMO

I would tend to agree... nothing would indicate that Intimidation would take effect at any point in the attack, that would be different than the effect of Tactical Scrambler (or range, or obstruction, etc)... so I'm inclined to think they all apply cumulatively, before the Predictive Shot cap is applied.

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2 hours ago, DarthDarxide said:

1 if the predictive shot and intimidation work the way i hope, 2 at the very most since predictive shot says the defender “cannot” roll more defense dice than hits.

Predictive shot can only work 1 of 2 ways:

1. Predictive shot is an ability which removes dice and has to be applied in player order.

  In this case predictive shot gets hugely better if you are the second play as you can apply predictive shot after all of your opponent's abilities which add or remove dice and hugely worse if you're the first player. In the Cova Nell example, resolution is as follows:

    A (Republic is Player 1): Cova Nell rolls 1 die (agi) + 1 (range) + 1 (obstruction) + [Player 1's Abilities - 1 (Predictive Shot) - 1 (Intimidation)] + [Player 2's Abilities + 1 (Cova Nell's pilot abil) + 1 (Scramblers)] = 3 + [-2] + [2] = 3

    B (Republic is Player 2): Cova Nell rolls 1 die (agi) + 1 (range) + 1 (obstruction) + [Player 1's Abilities + 1 (Cova Nell's pilot abil) + 1 (Scramblers)] + [Player 2's Abilities - 3 (predictive shot) - 1 (intimidation)] = 3 + [2] + [-4] = 1

2. Predictive shot is an ability which does not add or remove dice but acts as a ceiling on the number of dice the opponent rolls.

  In this case predictive shot is fairly decent in general but doesn't stack well with other abilities which reduce the number of dice the defender rolls

    (regardless of player order): Cova Nell rolls 1 die (agi) + 1 (range) + 1 (obstruction) + 1 (Cova Nell's abil) +1 (Scramblers) -1 (intimidation) = 4 (and this gets changed to 2 by intimidation)

 

Essentially, if you can stack intimidation and predictive shot then predictive shot must be evaluated at the time it's used in the queue which means you can't use it and prevent the defender from climbing out of the hole you dug with other abilities.

 

Personally I'm in camp 2.

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6 minutes ago, DarthDarxide said:

No matter what everyone thinks about these 2 cards together, I would just like clarification on if they work together or not.

 

 

you won't get that in this forum. this is community only. you can post you question here, if you require a clarification from the developers rather than the community:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

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I don't think the two interact. Intimidation would influence the potential defence dice pool at the same time as range, obstruction, and any other effects. Predictive Shot then comes along, and declares that the maximum dice pool is a particular number. Any dice above that number are then removed from the pool.

It would feel wonky for the dice pool size to be calculated, then limited, and then further reduced.

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1 hour ago, meffo said:

you won't get that in this forum. this is community only. you can post you question here, if you require a clarification from the developers rather than the community:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

I thought this community site was for these types of discussions...

 

Since there’s no consensus on how these 2 cards work within the community, I suppose we may never know how these are suppose to interact.

 

🍻

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11 minutes ago, DarthDarxide said:

I thought this community site was for these types of discussions...

 

Since there’s no consensus on how these 2 cards work within the community, I suppose we may never know how these are suppose to interact.

 

🍻

you're right, the forums is for these kinds of discussions. asking for clarification, when a majority of comments lean toward intimidation always kicking in before predictive shot limits the number of dice, makes me think you want an official answer from FFG.

predicitve shot clearly limits the number of dice you are allowed to roll. it says nothing about removing or adding any dice. intimidation clearly removes one die. you'd like to limit the number of dice first. that's fine. you cannot, how ever, remove dice with predictive shot before the number of dice that are to be rolled is determined. you are trying to do something with a card that the card does not say you can do.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, meffo said:

you're right, the forums is for these kinds of discussions. asking for clarification, when a majority of comments lean toward intimidation always kicking in before predictive shot limits the number of dice, makes me think you want an official answer from FFG.

predicitve shot clearly limits the number of dice you are allowed to roll. it says nothing about removing or adding any dice. intimidation clearly removes one die. you'd like to limit the number of dice first. that's fine. you cannot, how ever, remove dice with predictive shot before the number of dice that are to be rolled is determined. you are trying to do something with a card that the card does not say you can do.

I’m not trying to do anything with these cards except for making sure that I’m playing them correctly. Please don’t assume that I’m trying to use them in a way that they are not meant.

 

But this card interaction doesn’t have a clearly defined way of working together or not, at least where this community is concerned.

 

I haven’t tried this combination together. I like to ask the community about card combinations before I use them. This is actually the first time that I’ve asked a question and got conflicting answers. That in itself says that maybe ffg should look into it.

Edited by DarthDarxide
Hmm

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14 hours ago, VonSkippy said:

Predictive shot can only work 1 of 2 ways:

1. Predictive shot is an ability which removes dice and has to be applied in player order.

  In this case predictive shot gets hugely better if you are the second play as you can apply predictive shot after all of your opponent's abilities which add or remove dice and hugely worse if you're the first player. In the Cova Nell example, resolution is as follows:

    A (Republic is Player 1): Cova Nell rolls 1 die (agi) + 1 (range) + 1 (obstruction) + [Player 1's Abilities - 1 (Predictive Shot) - 1 (Intimidation)] + [Player 2's Abilities + 1 (Cova Nell's pilot abil) + 1 (Scramblers)] = 3 + [-2] + [2] = 3

    B (Republic is Player 2): Cova Nell rolls 1 die (agi) + 1 (range) + 1 (obstruction) + [Player 1's Abilities + 1 (Cova Nell's pilot abil) + 1 (Scramblers)] + [Player 2's Abilities - 3 (predictive shot) - 1 (intimidation)] = 3 + [2] + [-4] = 1

2. Predictive shot is an ability which does not add or remove dice but acts as a ceiling on the number of dice the opponent rolls.

  In this case predictive shot is fairly decent in general but doesn't stack well with other abilities which reduce the number of dice the defender rolls

    (regardless of player order): Cova Nell rolls 1 die (agi) + 1 (range) + 1 (obstruction) + 1 (Cova Nell's abil) +1 (Scramblers) -1 (intimidation) = 4 (and this gets changed to 2 by intimidation)

 

Essentially, if you can stack intimidation and predictive shot then predictive shot must be evaluated at the time it's used in the queue which means you can't use it and prevent the defender from climbing out of the hole you dug with other abilities.

 

Personally I'm in camp 2.

I think this is the most complete evaluation of the way the two cards interact, so far.  You can't really have it any way beyond these without really stretching the rules of the game.  For the record, I believe that I'm Camp 2 for the same reasons that @VonSkippy has described.

There is only one small error in his calculation of Method 2:  The 4 is reduced to 2 due to Predictive Shot, not Intimidation.

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14 hours ago, VonSkippy said:

Predictive shot can only work 1 of 2 ways:

1. Predictive shot is an ability which removes dice and has to be applied in player order.

  In this case predictive shot gets hugely better if you are the second play as you can apply predictive shot after all of your opponent's abilities which add or remove dice and hugely worse if you're the first player. In the Cova Nell example, resolution is as follows:

    A (Republic is Player 1): Cova Nell rolls 1 die (agi) + 1 (range) + 1 (obstruction) + [Player 1's Abilities - 1 (Predictive Shot) - 1 (Intimidation)] + [Player 2's Abilities + 1 (Cova Nell's pilot abil) + 1 (Scramblers)] = 3 + [-2] + [2] = 3

    B (Republic is Player 2): Cova Nell rolls 1 die (agi) + 1 (range) + 1 (obstruction) + [Player 1's Abilities + 1 (Cova Nell's pilot abil) + 1 (Scramblers)] + [Player 2's Abilities - 3 (predictive shot) - 1 (intimidation)] = 3 + [2] + [-4] = 1

2. Predictive shot is an ability which does not add or remove dice but acts as a ceiling on the number of dice the opponent rolls.

  In this case predictive shot is fairly decent in general but doesn't stack well with other abilities which reduce the number of dice the defender rolls

    (regardless of player order): Cova Nell rolls 1 die (agi) + 1 (range) + 1 (obstruction) + 1 (Cova Nell's abil) +1 (Scramblers) -1 (intimidation) = 4 (and this gets changed to 2 by intimidation)

 

Essentially, if you can stack intimidation and predictive shot then predictive shot must be evaluated at the time it's used in the queue which means you can't use it and prevent the defender from climbing out of the hole you dug with other abilities.

 

Personally I'm in camp 2.

The only one that fit the card is 2.

The card say you can't roll more then X. To know if you will roll more you have to finish calculating it. You can't insert the effect in between.

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I'm in the camp that they don't work together. Predictive shot will trigger before Intimidation, but it's effect will apply after Intimidation since it's checking to make sure the final number of defense dice rolled aren't exceeding a certain number. 

Sorry predictive shot will always be a terrible card even if they make it cost 0 it could still screw you over, they should errata it to be after attack dice are rolled.

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I’m still not sure why everyone thinks intimidation has to trigger before predictive shot. 

If you look at the cards, predictive shot tells you the maximum amount of dice you can roll but not a minimum.

Intimidation tells you that the defender rolls 1 less.

Keep in mind you must declare who you are attacking and then spend a force charge to trigger predictive shot. Then you check for other effects, keeping in mind that the defender “cannot” roll more dice than hit/crit results. But there is nothing on the card or in the RR that says you “cannot” roll less defense dice than predictive shot allows.

 

I wonder if strained or tractored ships are free from rolling 1 fewer defense dice when being shot by predictive shot as well?

 

🍻

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This is the procedure for rolling defense dice:

Quote

a. Roll Defense Dice: The defending player determines a number of defense dice to roll based on the defender’s agility value, as range bonus, whether the attack is being obstructed by an obstacle, and any abilities that increase or decrease the number of defense dice. Then they roll that many dice.

Intimidation decreases the number of defense dice, so it's 100% clear where it fits into that procedure. Predictive Shot does not affect agility, range, or obstruction, nor does it increase or decrease the number of defense dice; rather, it places an upper limit on the number of dice that can be rolled.

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