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Two Ship Aces Lists

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Not to be overly critical, as I know it's meant to be informal and not scientific, but regardless I don't think the first poll question will yield a meaningful result.

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2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Reading high skill as unforgiving of mistakes. In that sense, yes.

 

This actually depends on the opponent. Two low skill opponents squaring off, a 2 ship is super forgiving because they're opponent won't recognize or capitalize on mistakes, so any they do make are unlikely to be fatal.

 

A higher skilled player using a 2 ship vs a lower skill one, the 2 ship is basically unbeatable.

 

a lower skill running 2 ship against higher skill, the 2 ship will trade well, but make enough mistakes to lose.

 

At the highest levels of play, 2 ship v something else does enter the "unforgiving of mistakes" territory, but that's such a small fraction of games played, that I don't feel it's appropriate as a general statement.

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If 2 Defenders counts as a 2 ace list, they can be quite forgiving of mistakes.

But it isn't easy to win the damage race if you don't get enough quality shots in, so there is that. Given the Init is capped at 4 and 5, it does require some skill to get those shots.

Perhaps a bit of a stretch on the 2 ace archetype.

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When it comes to skill I think it depends on the ships you’re running. For instance I found two Jedi way more forgiving than Soontir+Vader. Nevertheless, flying two ship lists is the most fun I have in X Wing. You can feel the tension every single round and each decision is important. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SavouryRain said:

If one or both of the aces have premaneuver repositions, then the list becomes much easier to play.

Agree with this in general, though I'd also note that if you're investing in AS or SNR, you've got less punch or health and consequently more arcs to dodge for longer, so it partly depends. Is SNR Vader + SNR Quiz viable? Probably not, even if it is relatively forgiving. Against a beefy swarm you're going to have a really tough game, even with pre-maneuver repositioning, and you won't get the punch to burn it down fast enough. This is especially true if you're excessively depending on SNR to stay alive because you won't have force for offense/defense/actions, etc. Add to this that Passive Protorps can create some enormous area denial that I would almost call a hard-counter to even Supernatural aces. So with all that it still seems higher-skill than average to me.

But all of that could be my inexperience talking.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Posted (edited)

Ani Obi player here. Make no mistake, I want to kill everything. However, whether or not my opponent can set their dials in a reasonable amount of time and not make the game last only four rounds til time is called is the real trick. Also, if I am given literally not a single angle to approach from (Inferno Swarm with gas clouds), while the other player has to make the hard decision of pointing in my general direction, I'm gonna take a minute before I try and kill everything.

Point is, I'm here to play the game, zoom around, turn in with both for an IV 7, 8 dice double modded Alpha strike, and hopefully end the game through my ability to be consistently aggressive once I've entered the correct position. To be honest, it seems like it's always the other side that is trying to run down the clock (through choice or incompetence) when I play two ships because 99% of the time, it takes me under 15 seconds to choose each of my dials, while rebel beef has to take five minutes to figure out if they want to go forward and shoot at me with their jousters. 

Remember, double aces start the game losing and then have to build their win from there, while 6 tie swarm and all of the other "literally just try to be pointed at them" lists start from a winning position and are then incentivized to prevent the game from progressing from there. Only in very rare circumstances do I want to intentionally win with a crap MOV aka run down the clock. 

In my experience, it's always always always the 5+ ship players who run down the clock by pretending that they actually have hard decisions to make, when in actuality, they have just done the simple math already and are banking on the other side not wanting to feel socially awkward by calling a judge for blatant slow play. 

I think people misinterpret ace play as running down the clock, when it's actually more along the lines of "I'm gonna dab on you for 75 minutes and still end up with full health ships because I chose to bring a list that is scaled off directly off of good decisions rather than just ignoring several fundamental aspects of the game and making a win impossible for you by limiting the total amount of rounds i e opportunities to shoot things down"

But I'm not salty about OP and switching to key forge or anything. Nope... definitely not.

 

Edited by ThinkingB

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Been playing Vader/Soontir a bit lately, mostly for the memes and because my Vader build from last fall went up like 20 points and I decided to just roll with it. 

It's interesting. Games are definitely won or lost by how many times I mess up, whereas if I have more ships, the question more becomes can I punish my opponents enough when they mess up. Not sure what that implies about skill. But I definitely don't think you can just yolo in there with the majority of 2 ship lists and be fine. Boba/Guri had the appearance of Boba doing just that but I think there was probably still some nuance going on there that I just didn't get. 

The win condition is probably to run but I haven't done it yet. I find that the two ship lists take half points early in the game and spend the whole mid/endgame trying to catch up. 

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27 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

In my experience, it's always always always the 5+ ship players who run down the clock by pretending that they actually have hard decisions to make, when in actuality, they have just done the simple math already and are banking on the other side not wanting to feel socially awkward by calling a judge for blatant slow play. 

That's....harsh. I just want to hear you acknowledge that 5 TIE strikers does require a ton of thought, and a player (me) can get royally screwed if I don't plan the best maneuvers with the correct ailerons.

And in general, moving first can often lead to situations where you are literally guessing at what your opponent has dialed, and can make for some really difficult decisions. It's hard to determine if somebody is just running down the clock.

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Yeah, with @Parakitor‘s point, when you are playing low to mid I ships against nothing but double reposition aces it can become quite difficult.

How to most effectively create a kill box where you either get shots or force them to spend actions to reposition in turn denying mods is quite hard. Especially when you aren’t running a pure synergy swarm. Often your choice is even 50/50. ‘If they do maneuver X, I’m in good position to force them to respond to my ships. If they do Y, I’m hosed’.

Often you’ll accept having 2-3 rounds where you have no shots on the ace simply because that was the best you could do and forced them not to have shots either.

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As primarily an ace player running up against a lot of high ship count lists, if all they do is point ships vaguely in my direction after minimal processing time, I'm probably on the up.

Setting many dials and attempting to killbox these squirrelly things does take time to do well.

Something plainly obvious when I get trounced by one of the top tier swarm players we have floating about, when their killbox just emerges from seemingly nowhere.... After I've knocked the bells off of someone Just pointing and (not) shooting.

Equally, I've experienced  the flip side, being lightly warned for slow play, (by a somewhat biased judge), while mulling a series of genuinely hard dial choices against a multi-arc gas cloud point and click mob with AS Guri. As well as being accused of being the most running awayest player ever for not jousting a Jonas blob with Echo and a couple friends......

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Brainless jousting vs cowardly running till time. Some people just don't like you making their decisions hard. 

Nuff thinking, we roll dice now!

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6 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Setting many dials and attempting to killbox these squirrelly things does take time to do well.

Something plainly obvious when I get trounced by one of the top tier swarm players we have floating about, when their killbox just emerges from seemingly nowhere.... After I've knocked the bells off of someone Just pointing and (not) shooting.

People who say SNR is inherently busted don't put enough stock in this. The truth is you can counterplay it because you have a lot more arcs in play. If you can catch it in just 1 or 2, you'll probably do some damage. If you can't, you're still draining their force and thereby their defensive power, and likely putting them in a worse place next turn. Making Vader burn health to boost out of there is a winning strategy. It's just a different kind of play than some joust lists are used to, and a few specific ships (like Torrents and B-Wings) mostly can't keep up. This is also why I've always said salads are better than Spam lists because they can cover each other's weak spots.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Parakitor said:

That's....harsh. I just want to hear you acknowledge that 5 TIE strikers does require a ton of thought, and a player (me) can get royally screwed if I don't plan the best maneuvers with the correct ailerons.

And in general, moving first can often lead to situations where you are literally guessing at what your opponent has dialed, and can make for some really difficult decisions. It's hard to determine if somebody is just running down the clock.

I was going to put strikers as an exception in quotes, but I didn't. I should know better as 5 strikers seem to have quite a big fan-base to come stick up for them. I would say they are absolutely the exception to this because they have to play super predatory before they get taken out in single shots. They can't afford to not be making the most of every turn because they don't have Iden. 

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

As primarily an ace player running up against a lot of high ship count lists, if all they do is point ships vaguely in my direction after minimal processing time, I'm probably on the up.

Setting many dials and attempting to killbox these squirrelly things does take time to do well.

Something plainly obvious when I get trounced by one of the top tier swarm players we have floating about, when their killbox just emerges from seemingly nowhere.... After I've knocked the bells off of someone Just pointing and (not) shooting.

Equally, I've experienced  the flip side, being lightly warned for slow play, (by a somewhat biased judge), while mulling a series of genuinely hard dial choices against a multi-arc gas cloud point and click mob with AS Guri. As well as being accused of being the most running awayest player ever for not jousting a Jonas blob with Echo and a couple friends......

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Brainless jousting vs cowardly running till time. Some people just don't like you making their decisions hard. 

Nuff thinking, we roll dice now!

I think I just have a lot of experience killing aces; moreso than probably most players because my best friend plays them in ever list and we usually get two - three games weekly... for 3.5 years straight so far. For me, it's kind of frustrating because I've learned the best ways to kill aces (spoiler alert: don't over-commit, slow roll, and just keep shooting them til their luck runs out) and it's upsetting when people don't do this, but instead take the W because I was not given enough physical round time to do what I have to do. Getting rid of/ changing final salvo or introducing a literal 90 second timer per dials phase might be a fix for this though. 

Edited by ThinkingB

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9 hours ago, gennataos said:

I think most two-ship lists actually are "destroy everything", but matchups can dictate otherwise.

As someone who has flown two-ship lists in 1.0, dabbled only a little in 2.0, and have flown against it in 2.0, I agree. I tend to believe that most players who play two-ship lists plan on destroying everything but the circumstances of a particular match can change plans. 

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Aren’t 2 ship Ace list points fortresses, where as they try not to engage unless it’s a 1 on 1 situation. Scoring enough points to tip them over the edge for victory. 

You can easily make Guri 100 points plus, trying to a) catch her and b) get damage through could be very difficult 

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