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If Huge Ships are not tournament legal will you still put them in a 200 point list?

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So huge ships are no longer exclusively a part of epic, and since there is no epic points all you need is to be within the squadron point limit. But still they are not tournament legal (and likely not allowed in hyperspace format). So that brings up the will you be making any 200 point lists that contain a huge ship or will you be sticking to what will be allowed at Regionals or System Open?

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One of the most broken-feeling lists I flew in 1e was when I flew a Kyle Katarn Super-Dash with a support GR-75.  Does that mean I'll fly them in 200 point regular X-Wing?  Maybe.  But Huge ships can be kinda broken in a lower-points format, so that's as much a reason not to fly them as anything.  I'd be more likely to suggest to an opponent to play a 400-600 point game like classic-style Epic sometime.

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Yeah...probably not. It sounds cool, but if I ask an opponent who doesn't like Epic, I'll play standard with him, and if they like Epic we'll probably use the huge ship in one of the scenarios or 400-600 point death match.

The only time I think I'd fly a huge ship in 200 point is if my opponent really wanted to try it out.

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I would assume you wont have a choice once we actually see the rules. the Raider and Cr90 are likely over 200 points themselves, while epic ships are simply too big for a 36 inch board.  if they dont provide rules to account for that first and formost itll be DOA so maybe theyve found a work-around? I mean using 1.0 rules you could just put 2 gozantis on the board and run your oponents over turn 2

Also one of the issues with epic was always that the huge ships could tank vast numbers of weak attacks but went down too fast to ordinance swarms, and i cant see it not being even more extreme at 200 points.  for example would you fly 4 x-wings against a raider and call it fair?  unless theyve massively nerfed what those big ships were, the only way the x-wings could win is if the raider flew off board.

im happy to see epic ships emerge but im dubious of FFGs implimentation

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1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

while epic ships are simply too big for a 36 inch board

Hardly. Many epic games end up with both sides starting with all their ships crammed into the same 3x3 half of the board and effectively ignoring the other half. With a 200pts list it wouldn't be as crowded.

Edited by kris40k

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I'm unlikely to play a 200pt game using huge ships, unless they become tournament legal.

On the other hand, I am rather likely to play in 500-1000pt games featuring several huge ships, and at least one of my local stores will be holding an event featuring them, probably for pairs.

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4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

the Raider and Cr90 are likely over 200 points themselves

Then how come the threat card showed a fully-stacked Raider for 8 threat and fully-stacked C-ROC for 5?

Also why would they say you can use them in standard battles if you can't?

Quote

The largest ships available in X-Wing, huge ships can be used during casual games of X-Wing, and they're also great when used in conjunction with the Epic Battles Multiplayer Expansion. For more information on what that expansion adds to your games, click here!

They'll fit for sure, they just won't be tournament legal.

Yet...

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4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Then how come the threat card showed a fully-stacked Raider for 8 threat and fully-stacked C-ROC for 5?

Also why would they say you can use them in standard battles if you can't?

They'll fit for sure, they just won't be tournament legal.

Yet...

FFG gets there own articles wrong so often that finding the mistake turned into a game and meme, so we need to see the rules to actually know.  it is the norm for FFG to propose illegal lists or combos that cannot be used as advertised.

also I already addressed your other point. If they nerfed the huge ships, then maybe itd fine.  maybe the big guys are weaker now. but if the huge ships are comparable to 1.0, then theres a huge(pun intended) issue.   A ship with 16 hull/shield, reinforce, and regen chucking 20 red dice at range 1 to 5 is simply not gonna work in standard format.

In 1.0 the Raider and CR90 were typically 120-140 points each, so roughly 240 to 280 in 2.0 points. you might note that 240 is more than 200, the point limit for standard play. IACs, Gr75s, and the  Croc could fit in a 200 point list, but without a nerf would be insane.  the issue of point fortressing would almost garauntee a win unless you flew horrifically.

The whole idea behind epic is that its basically a boss battle... the huge ships are EPIC.   in order to make them play that way they need to have powerful mechanics that shape large battles, and by that nature they warp game design to fit that role.  it just wont work in both formats, has to be designed for big battles or standard, one or the other

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22 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

 I mean using 1.0 rules you could just put 2 gozantis on the board and run your oponents over turn 2

With really bad flying of the Gozanti's opponent, yeah. But done right the Gozantis would have difficulties running over something without risking crashing through obstacles (getting critted) or themselves flying off the very next round, loosing many more points than the 1-2 small they might have gotten with ramming.

Huge ships were downright terrible in 1.0 E.g. a naked weaponless C-Roc with one puny action did cost you 35pts. 35pts for 10hull 4 shields with zero defense and one action and NO attack. 5 more points for one 4dice turret range 1-2 costing 2 of your 4 energy for 1 shot every firing, unmodded when reinforcing your C-Roc. Very soon out of energy for firing....

The Lothal rebel had already 4dice, (5 at r1), 10hull and 6 shields, largely better movement at 35(!) pts. That's before even going into any spammed guidance chip ordnance carriers just slaughtering the lumbering hulks.

So actually I hope that the Huge ships are a challenge this time.

 

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

also I already addressed your other point. If they nerfed the huge ships, then maybe itd fine.  maybe the big guys are weaker now. but if the huge ships are comparable to 1.0, then theres a huge(pun intended) issue.   A ship with 16 hull/shield, reinforce, and regen chucking 20 red dice at range 1 to 5 is simply not gonna work in standard format.

In 1.0 the Raider and CR90 were typically 120-140 points each, so roughly 240 to 280 in 2.0 points. you might note that 240 is more than 200, the point limit for standard play. IACs, Gr75s, and the  Croc could fit in a 200 point list, but without a nerf would be insane.  the issue of point fortressing would almost garauntee a win unless you flew horrifically.

We do not know yet how many attack opportunities per round they have. It all depends on how huge ships are realised. Also half points of 230 is already 115pts, 5 Complete Ties, or 10 half ones. Acceptable trade.

Edited by Managarmr
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1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

FFG gets there own articles wrong so often that finding the mistake turned into a game and meme, so we need to see the rules to actually know.  it is the norm for FFG to propose illegal lists or combos that cannot be used as advertised.

True, but 5 or 8 threat is still 5 or 8 threat, and that's clearly visible on the quick build cards in the conversion kit spread.

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

also I already addressed your other point. If they nerfed the huge ships, then maybe itd fine.  maybe the big guys are weaker now. but if the huge ships are comparable to 1.0, then theres a huge(pun intended) issue.   A ship with 16 hull/shield, reinforce, and regen chucking 20 red dice at range 1 to 5 is simply not gonna work in standard format.

I'm guessing default range is 1-3. This isn't baseless speculation; the CR-90's ship ability is that it can lock and perform primary attacks at range 4. This leads me to think 1-3 is still standard and turbolasers that shoot farther will come at an energy cost.

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

In 1.0 the Raider and CR90 were typically 120-140 points each, so roughly 240 to 280 in 2.0 points. you might note that 240 is more than 200, the point limit for standard play. IACs, Gr75s, and the  Croc could fit in a 200 point list, but without a nerf would be insane.  the issue of point fortressing would almost garauntee a win unless you flew horrifically.

They were also universally agreed to be abysmally overpriced in 1e such that they never saw play even in epic until they became mandatory. Still, a raider with a generic commander, two hardpoints, and a couple crew clocks in at 8 threat or vaguely 200 points. It wouldn't be legal for tournament play because you need a second ship, but if you fly it with a TIE/ln you could probably still get some decent upgrades. Regardless, this is a list that has only 3 total actions, terrible maneuverability, comparable health to a Ghost or Decimator, and can easily be tailed if you know what you're doing.

I like the choices that the SSD is bringing to Armada for the same reasons. It's similarly a huge points fortress, but if it can't annihilate your bombers or heavy ships before they get too close, it burns down super fast and you get some abysmal MOV. Maneuvering, action choice, and attack priority are all very difficult when you have basically a 1-ship list, even if it's getting 3 attacks.

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

The whole idea behind epic is that its basically a boss battle... the huge ships are EPIC.   in order to make them play that way they need to have powerful mechanics that shape large battles, and by that nature they warp game design to fit that role.  it just wont work in both formats, has to be designed for big battles or standard, one or the other

Again, they revisited all the mechanics this time around with the intent of making them work in a balanced way even in 200-pt games (they said as much in a reddit AMA). Doing this post-SSD probably means they've got a better idea what they're doing now. Among other things, I highly doubt they will have kept the "overlap = immediately destroyed" rule. It always seemed super dumb to me as the fighters are far more maneuverable than the capital ships anyway. I wouldn't be opposed to 1.0-Oicunn-style autodamage but immediate destruction is kinda silly IMO.

Not saying it's ever going to be tournament-legal, just hoping the devs have done their job in balancing and that 200-pt games with huge ships will be a regular thing in my kitchen table group.

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Oh, absolutely XD 

If I can smash a GR-75 through a swarm of Imperial TIE Fighters if to do NOTHING ELSE than to mess up the formation if not take at least ONE out, it'll put a smile on my face! (a couple of players have become REAL good swarm fliers and I wanna throw a monkey wrench in their plans!)

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12 hours ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

Oh, absolutely XD 

If I can smash a GR-75 through a swarm of Imperial TIE Fighters if to do NOTHING ELSE than to mess up the formation if not take at least ONE out, it'll put a smile on my face! (a couple of players have become REAL good swarm fliers and I wanna throw a monkey wrench in their plans!)

"This is the GR-75 Monkey Wrench, changing course to intercept."

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