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librarian101

Cove Nell & R4

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Probably because pride of "I have to be right" has set in.

Since no one else has mentioned that they did this, I submitted the question via the Rules Submission Form. I will let you all know what I find out. Hopefully Star Wars response is faster than Keyforge response, otherwise I will see you all in six months. ((laughs, then cries inside))

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4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Hey, I've got a transport in the package room of my building right now and I've only come back to say I've stopped pushing for a while now 😛

just gonna stick to Nodin' or the Logistics until FFG pops in with an answer

Yeah it’s really not worth fighting over. FAQ is all we need and consensus doesn’t really come out of these.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nothing prevents R4 Astromech from interacting with this, and R4 Astromech says it does.

I think the key is the phrase: “If a card ability references a ship’s revealed maneuver...”

Fine as the distinction may be, R4 does not include the words “revealed maneuver,” and therefore is not explicitly referencing it. As per the rule’s phrasing, I think that means its timing window defaults to happening during the Reveal Dial and Execute Maneuver steps, as per the rest of the rules excerpt.

Granted, I suspect R4’s text was written prior to FFG conceiving this new rule and its potential interactions. I think a quick FAQ entry would be great here. But as-written, I still don’t think R4 steps on her ability to benefit from revealing reds.

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I just picked up a Resistance Transport and saw this thread.  I haven't read all five pages (so forgive me if this has already been dealt with), but to me it's pretty straightforward - when you reveal a maneuver, it has certain attributes such as speed, direction, and difficulty, which cannot physically change - a red hard turn is still going to be a red hard turn as shown on the dial, no matter what other effects are applied.  When you execute the maneuver, however, you can apply game effects; i.e. reduce difficulty (which only applies to a maneuver's execution and the potential to perform an action, AFAIK).  Cova Nell specifically states the "revealed maneuver" which is going to be red, before anything applies to it to change its difficulty.  I thought that FFG made that very clear when they were doing the previews for this wave, and in the rules reference documents.  There is a difference between the 'revealed maneuver' and the 'executed maneuver'.

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36 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

I think the key is the phrase: “If a card ability references a ship’s revealed maneuver...”

Fine as the distinction may be, R4 does not include the words “revealed maneuver,” and therefore is not explicitly referencing it. As per the rule’s phrasing, I think that means its timing window defaults to happening during the Reveal Dial and Execute Maneuver steps, as per the rest of the rules excerpt.

Granted, I suspect R4’s text was written prior to FFG conceiving this new rule and its potential interactions. I think a quick FAQ entry would be great here. But as-written, I still don’t think R4 steps on her ability to benefit from revealing reds.

It doesn't matter.  Cova references the revealed manoeuvre, says 'hey, this is a red 1 turn', and R4 says 'a 1 turn you say?  It's not red, it's easier than that, because I'm that cool *fingerguns*'

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8 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It doesn't matter.  Cova references the revealed manoeuvre, says 'hey, this is a red 1 turn', and R4 says 'a 1 turn you say?  It's not red, it's easier than that, because I'm that cool *fingerguns*'

To further demonstrate the endless circular argument of the last 5 pages can you please cite which rules you are using to infer this constant effects interpretation? It will help provide the context, just as my phrasing of the question demonstrates the opposing view.

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:

To further demonstrate the endless circular argument of the last 5 pages can you please cite which rules you are using to infer this constant effects interpretation? It will help provide the context, just as my phrasing of the question demonstrates the opposing view.

Nien and Hera was specifically FAQd to work (don’t have the reference atm but it’s earlier in this thread). Nien procs as always in reference to revealed dial allowing Hera to change it. The “physical dial” is treated as a different color because difficulty is reduced and difficulty ========= color. No timing window means always active.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Nien and Hera was specifically FAQd to work (don’t have the reference atm but it’s earlier in this thread). Nien procs as always in reference to revealed dial allowing Hera to change it. The “physical dial” is treated as a different color because difficulty is reduced and difficulty ========= color. No timing window means always active.

Please provide that reference FAQed, as I asked earlier for this exact interaction, as based on the RR it is not your revealed move, but also this is in the activation phase, so that rule will not be in direct play.

Also back on the R2 point, the new rule is active as you are outside of the activation phase, then you look at your revealed move on your dial. R2 changing that is inferred to simplify the effect it has on your maneuver (during activation), so comparing a subjective understanding of the rules compared to what is written out with no ambiguity, seems a hard case to win if you are going RAW.

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7 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

To further demonstrate the endless circular argument of the last 5 pages can you please cite which rules you are using to infer this constant effects interpretation? It will help provide the context, just as my phrasing of the question demonstrates the opposing view.

The R4 Astromech card is all the rules you need.

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Posted (edited)

To expand slightly: this is an exception based rules system.


Things can provide exceptions to rules.

To give an analogy: nothing in the rules suggests that there is an opportunity to modify dice when you roll for an asteroid.  So why then, does Rebel Han work on a rock roll?  He doesn't have anything in the rules saying he can work on a rock roll, there's no opportunity for him to work.  He works because HE says he works.

 

The same is true here. I think (or at least I hope) no-one would argue that the 1 turn revealed on Cova's dial in this instance, is Cova's 1-turn?

 

Given that it's Cova's 1-turn, if she has R4, it's 1 difficulty easier.  it doesn't matter when you try to look at it, because R4 doesn't specify a timing, just like Han doesn't specify a timing.  And the rules don't specify that difficulty can be changed outside the execution of a manoeuvre, but they also don't say you can modify rock rolls.  Or that you can change the template used to drop a bomb.  They don't says these things because they don't have to.

The cards provide exceptions to the rules.  That's how the system works.

--

If you want to have your cake and eat it (i.e., do the move as white, but still see it as red when Cova sees if she has a red on her dial), there's a card for that.  It's Leia, and there's a reason she costs NINETEEN points and two crew slots, not 2 points and a mech slot.

Edited by thespaceinvader

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1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

If you want to have your cake and eat it (i.e., do the move as white, but still see it as red when Cova sees if she has a red on her dial), there's a card for that.  It's Leia, and there's a reason she costs NINETEEN points and two crew slots, not 2 points and a mech slot.

Oh, does my astromech work every turn for any ship in my list, including non-basic maneuvers like stops and talon rolls, and provide a force point if I didn’t need it?

I’m not taking a stance on the rest of it, but this part of your argument is silly. What Leia reads is a fine argument, but don’t bring cost into it because the cards aren’t actually comps. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure I understand the logic of Cova's ability working with Leia but not with the R4 Astromech.  The wording on both of them looks pretty much identical.  Surely Cova would work with both or neither?

Edited by Jarval

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1 minute ago, Jarval said:

I'm not sure I understand the logic of Cova's ability working with Leia but not with the R4 Astromech.  The wording on both of them looks pretty much identical.  Surely Cova would work with both or neither?

R4 has no timing, and reads as always active.

Leia has a timing - "after you reveal" - and an implicit timing window - "during this activation", or something like that. (If she didn't, that manuever would stay reduced for the rest of the game!) The implied window of Leia's ability, is what makes it (and cards with the same wording, like Seasoned Navigator) distinct from R4 or Damaged Engine.

The counter argument consists of "difficulty is only changed by any card during the check difficulty step", which takes Leia's implied window and applies it to everything, as opposed to just taking what the cards say and don't say at face value.

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Just now, svelok said:

R4 has no timing, and reads as always active.

Leia has a timing - "after you reveal" - and an implicit timing window - "during this activation", or something like that. (If she didn't, that manuever would stay reduced for the rest of the game!) The implied window of Leia's ability, is what makes it (and cards with the same wording, like Seasoned Navigator) distinct from R4 or Damaged Engine.

So as it's an implied window on Leia, it's going to be very subject to TO ruling if the Cova/Leia interaction works or not at a given event?

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3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yeah I'm purposely ignoring Leia's terrible wording in this context, and going with the obvious intent that she onyl works for that execution of that manoeuvre.

It does feel like Cova needs a clear FAQ on how Revealed Manoeuvrers work before I'd be entirely confident about taking her to a tournament.  The odds of a very varied range of interpretations seems high!

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Just now, Jarval said:

It does feel like Cova needs a clear FAQ on how Revealed Manoeuvrers work before I'd be entirely confident about taking her to a tournament.  The odds of a very varied range of interpretations seems high!

It's pretty clear how everythign works.


The only thing that's been purposefully muddied is the interaction with R4 and Damaged Engine.  Don't take R4 and you're probably fine.

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37 minutes ago, Jarval said:

So as it's an implied window on Leia, it's going to be very subject to TO ruling if the Cova/Leia interaction works or not at a given event?

Cova/Leia is clear, it's R4 that people argue about.

Ask your TO about everything anyways, its their job and I'm not the police

24 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yeah I'm purposely ignoring Leia's terrible wording in this context, and going with the obvious intent that she onyl works for that execution of that manoeuvre.

Yeah - Leia very obviously doesn't work for ever. I don't believe any person is capable of believing otherwise in good faith. That leads to the subsequent conclusion that R4 does.

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3 minutes ago, svelok said:

Yeah - Leia very obviously doesn't work for ever. I don't believe any person is capable of believing otherwise in good faith. That leads to the subsequent conclusion that R4 does.

But their is a question to how long Leia does apply for - is it just for the execution of the manoeuvrer, the activation, or the turn?  There's nothing explicitly saying how long her effect applies for, and while I don't think anyone would argue that it applies for the whole game, I could see people arguing that it does apply for the whole turn, including for the purposes of Cova's pilot ability.

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