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Cove Nell & R4

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3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

The Difficulty of the revealed maneuver is always present, but R4 only triggers during the check difficulty step because that's where the Rules Reference puts all effects of that type.

I've read your quoted section and do t see anything like that stated.  Help me understand your argument?  Pretend I'm dumb.

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3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Cova revealing a red 1-turn means she gets her ability with or without r4 astromech.

What is red?

Red is a difficulty. You've agreed to this. You've said it yourself. Red is a difficulty.

What does R4 do? It decreases difficulty. Red decreases to white.

It's like you're trying not to understand. It's so simple.

R4 isn't about execution. It's always-on.

"Check Difficulty" is just one time when the difficulty can be checked. The RR does not say it's the only time (I have no idea where you get this idea), it's just the only time it specifies because it's the only time difficulty is referenced by default. R4 does not specify a timing window. It's always-on.

Cova Nell is checking the difficulty of her revealed maneuver.

Why on earth does R4 not apply?

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it doesn't apply because the rules ref tells you when it applies, it's that simple

same reason I don't get to juke you AFTER you've spent focus

Juke.png

"It's like you're trying not to understand. It's so simple.

Juke isn't about execution. It's always on (when you attack).

"Modify Defense Dice" is just one time when the result can be changed. The RR does not say that "Modify Defense Dice" is the only time (I have no idea where you get this idea)

 

etc.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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R4 has to do a check somewhere for speed, since it only works on speed 1 or 2   So it would seem to fall at the point that Ficlke pointed out.  Cova is based on the dial prior to maneuvers being done.R4 would not take place until the point that the speed is determined.

 

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5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it doesn't apply because the rules ref tells you when it applies, it's that simple

No.

Ugh.

I think we both need to take a break.

Just answer three very simple questions:

1) Is Cova Nell's ability "checking the difficulty of her revealed maneuver?" Seems abundantly clear to me RAW but it seems you disagree.

2) If not, what the heck is she checking?

3) If so, why doesn't R4 apply?

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Strangely I think that @ClassicalMoser AND @ficklegreendice are right 😆

1) Cova calls for the REVEALED MANEUVER and (without further clarification from FFG) it means what is printed on the dial (Salmon text on the quoted RR).

- Reason: R2-A6 and Kaydel Connix explicitly SET the dial in order to change the revealed maneuver.

2) Manuevers have dificulties (blue, white, red) all the time and R4 has no time window. Therefore, the maneuver for all purposes other than the REVEALED MANEUVER has its difficulty reduced.

- Reason: Nien Numb and Lando (Rebel) do work together,

I think that RAW R4 does not affect Cova, but the rules will change to address that persistent effect (or at least R4) do change the revelead maneuver color   

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3 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

 

Just answer three very simple questions:

1) Is Cova Nell's ability "checking the difficulty of her revealed maneuver?"

2) If not, what the heck is she checking?

3) If so, why doesn't R4 apply?

I've answered these questions

six times now

possibly more

1) Is Cova Nell's ability "checking the difficulty of her revealed maneuver?"

Yes. This is an example of a revealed maneuver: 

swz45_diagram_a1.jpg

 

2) If not, what the heck is she checking?

She's still checking her revealed maneuver

3) If so, why doesn't R4 apply?

Because R4 doesn't say anything about changing the printed dial. The ONLY thing the rules reference says about effects that decrease/increase difficulty is that they occur during the Check Difficulty Step

R4 does NOT say otherwise, therefore there's no reason to believe it does otherwise. 

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1 minute ago, DerRitter said:

Strangely I think that @ClassicalMoser AND @ficklegreendice are right 😆

1) Cova calls for the REVEALED MANEUVER and (without further clarification from FFG) it means what is printed on the dial (Salmon text on the quoted RR).

- Reason: R2-A6 and Kaydel Connix explicitly SET the dial in order to change the revealed maneuver.

2) Manuevers have dificulties (blue, white, red) all the time and R4 has no time window. Therefore, the maneuver for all purposes other than the REVEALED MANEUVER has its difficulty reduced.

- Reason: Nien Numb and Lando (Rebel) do work together,

I think that RAW R4 does not affect Cova, but the rules will change to address that persistent effect (or at least R4) do change the revelead maneuver color   

But they do change the revealed color. When you reveal, you're "checking" the color. R4 reduces the difficulty.

COLOR ============= DIFFICULTY.

Difficulty = Color.

Difficulty isn't some weird thing that only comes into play while you're executing a maneuver to determine whether you get stressed or not.

Difficulty is color.

After you execute a maneuver, you check the difficulty (color) of that maneuver to see if you get a stress or lose a stress.

But there are other things that make you check the color (difficulty) of a maneuver too. Like Nien, or BB-8, or Cova Nell.

R4 applies to all of them.

There's no timing window.

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3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

The ONLY thing the rules reference says about effects that decrease/increase difficulty is that they occur during the Check Difficulty Step

AHA! Found it.

And you're dead wrong. It DOES NOT say this. It is only adding clarification to abilities that increase or decrease difficulty, and it makes sense to do so under the space where difficulty is checked most often.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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7 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

AHA! Found it.

And you're dead wrong. It DOES NOT say this. It is only adding clarification to abilities that increase or decrease difficulty, and it makes sense to do so under the space where difficulty is checked most often.

uh...it's not under any other category

it's CLEARLY indented under mention of the Check Difficulty Step:

xwing3.PNG

It's VERY specifically placed

 

and AGAIN, Juke has no "specific" timing window and yet I can't just apply it after you've spent your focus even if you have evades during the Cancel Results Step

Edited by ficklegreendice

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7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

She's still checking her revealed maneuver

She's checking the difficulty of her revealed maneuver. You said it!

7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Because R4 doesn't say anything about changing the printed dial.

Neither does the "Revealed maneuver" clarification. It just says the dial that is faceup. The word "Printed" isn't there. R4 reduces it. No timing window. Always on.

8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

The ONLY thing the rules reference says about effects that decrease/increase difficulty is that they occur during the Check Difficulty Step

It doesn't say that. It just clarifies what happens when difficulty is checked. Cova Nell is checking difficulty. You said it yourself!

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5 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But they do change the revealed color. When you reveal, you're "checking" the color. R4 reduces the difficulty.

COLOR ============= DIFFICULTY.

Difficulty = Color.

Difficulty isn't some weird thing that only comes into play while you're executing a maneuver to determine whether you get stressed or not.

Difficulty is color.

After you execute a maneuver, you check the difficulty (color) of that maneuver to see if you get a stress or lose a stress.

But there are other things that make you check the color (difficulty) of a maneuver too. Like Nien, or BB-8, or Cova Nell.

R4 applies to all of them.

There's no timing window.

I'm thinking this from a totally logical point of view. (and to get thinks clear I belive that the intended rule is as you say)

With the inclusion of revealed manuevers in the RR we now have to maneuvers in the game the revelead and the performed (let's call it hat way), the RR defines de RM as follows:

• "Some abilities reference a ship’s revealed maneuver outside of that ship’s activation. A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next Planning Phase."

The key word in that definition is selected. A player selects a red 1 turn and as the above rule says it will become the revealed manuever at the beginning of the ships activation. Now, the ship does perform a white 1 turn (because R4 reduced is difficulty), but the maneuver that the player originaly selected and is now the revelead manuever does not change.

BB8, Nien, etc. all check for the performed manuever color. Cova is the only example of a ship using the revelead maneuver color, so there is no jurisprudence on this. RAW I would say that Cova does check for the piece of cardboard that is near yor pilot card, nothing else.

In the case of all references to revelead maneuver speed FFG avoided this issues by setting the dial to the new one.

I do belive that they would rule that R4 does change the color (difficulty) of the maneuver for all instanced and keep the the game simple and clearer. "I did a red manuever, so now I shoot an extra die".

 

 

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I agree with @ficklegreendice, and thanks for showing your work. I followed your reasoning from the start.

Here’s to hoping the FAQ gets updated on official launch so that I don’t have to hear this argument until the cabal of judge Illuminati is able to lay down the answer for competitive play. 

Edited by PaulRuddSays

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The rules clarify what happens when difficulty is checked.

By default, difficulty is checked after you execute a maneuver.

Cova Nell adds another type of difficulty check (as does BB, in a different timing window)

 I don’t see how it should resolve differently. It’s clear why Leia works (she specifies only “while you execute” so she’s no longer on). R4 does not have this restriction and so should apply to ALL difficulty checks.

PRECEDENT:

Hera/Nien. Hera reveals a white 3 bank. The difficulty is reduced to blue upon reveal so she can change it before execution, OUTSIDE of the Execute Maneuver: Check Difficultly step.

Persistent effects such as Nien, L3-37, and R4 apply to ALL difficulty checks.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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difficulty is NOT checked after you executed a maneuver

difficulty is checked WHILE you execute a maneuver

then, if you executed a (insert color here maneuver) you get a thing

 

For example,

ARC_OddBall.pngDamaged_Engine.png

1.) Oddball reveals a white 2-turn

2.) Oddball does a 2-turn

3.) Check Difficulty Step, Damaged Engine increases the difficulty of the white 2-turn. 

4.) Since Odd Ball fully executed a red maneuver, he gets stressed and his ability might trigger

Odd Ball's revealed maneuver is still white 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

difficulty is NOT checked after you executed a maneuver

difficulty is checked WHILE you execute a maneuver

then, if you executed a (insert color here maneuver) you get a thing

 

For example,

ARC_OddBall.pngDamaged_Engine.png

1.) Oddball reveals a white 2-turn

2.) Oddball does a 2-turn

3.) Check Difficulty Step, Damaged Engine increases the difficulty of the white 2-turn. 

4.) Since Odd Ball fully executed a red maneuver, his ability might trigger

Odd Ball's revealed maneuver is still white 

Under this reasoning, Cova Nell doesn’t get the benefit from Damaged Engine. You okay with that?

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10 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Under this reasoning, Cova Nell doesn’t get the benefit from Damaged Engine. You okay with that?

that's RAW (it's also why they use VERY distinctly different wording)

and it also makes sense, rather than having to keep track of all the junk you can just look at her dial

 

 

the only real issue here is Pattern Analyzer gets really funky because it'd trigger on a 1-turn and Cova wouldn't get stressed so she'd take two actions a turn as long as she keeps 1-turning. This is the case for every transport.

I doubt that's intended, but remember I'm just reading rules here. FFG is notorious for not writing things out terribly well, despite how EASY it'd be to clarify their intention. 

this is how it SHOULD have been written if they wanted it to change the printed dial

 

xwing.PNG

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This is pointless.

I disagree, sir or madam!

Because of this, FFG will surely release a FAQ with this specific example sooner rather than later.

For the record I originally had the same line of thinking as @ficklegreendice mainly because of "A ship's revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship's ship card until the next Planning Phase." But then I thought that FFG probably didn't intend for Cova to be able to gain both an extra red and extra green with no stress and having all the other 1s and 2s reduced difficulty for the cost of 2 points.

So, I'm confused because it looks to me that both the RR Revealed Dial definition and R4 are persistent game rules and are kind of at odds with each other. 

As such, I will wait for FFG to FAQ this question and not visit this topic anymore.

Edited by Skitch_

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16 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

that's RAW

and it also makes sense, rather than having to keep track of all the junk you can just look at her dial

It would also mean Hera/Nien doesn't work, but I've never had anyone question it before. It's the exact same reasoning. It would also mean that Sasee Tiin wouldn't work with R4.

Another issue it raises: Why does Resistance Leia specify a timing window at all? Under your interpretation it would be 100% unnecessary because everything that could change difficulty would only occur within her specified timing window anyway. It would be like if Fifth Brother said "During the Modify Attack Dice step" or something crazy like that.

Either way, it seems we won't agree until an FAQ comes out. It's abundantly clear to me what was intended, and while I understand your RAW interpretation, the fact that the clarification comes as a bullet under the "Check Difficulty" step of performing a maneuver doesn't in any way say to me that it doesn't work the same way during any other difficulty check. It seems like mental gymnastics to make it work the way you want to. Why shouldn't every other "Difficulty Check" such as those under Hera, Tiin, or Cova Nell occur exactly as specified?

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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