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[VARIANT] Charmy's Complete Class Balance Patch v1.4

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Hey Guys, I don’t mean to hijack this thread but just a quick question in reference to what you said about LoS. I hate the DE2 LoS rules because practically speaking they often don’t make sense. For example, if you are behind someone in a straight line you can’t see around them but if you are diagonal then you. An because the corners are in line. Anyway I’ve always been afraid to ruin the balance. How do you feel about other rule changes like the 2 stamina to move limit? Thanks and sorry again for being off topic. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ren6175 said:

Hey Guys, I don’t mean to hijack this thread but just a quick question in reference to what you said about LoS. I hate the DE2 LoS rules because practically speaking they often don’t make sense. For example, if you are behind someone in a straight line you can’t see around them but if you are diagonal then you. An because the corners are in line. Anyway I’ve always been afraid to ruin the balance.

You're not the only one who doesn't like the Descent line of sight rules. I highly recommend trying the Imperial Assault line of sight rules described in the following document:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiRzdCSo8TjAhWH_p8KHQNsAaIQFjAAegQIAhAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fimages-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com%2Ffiler_public%2Fef%2F86%2Fef866943-534b-429e-b8db-7d99875431b7%2Fimperial_assault_rules_reference_guide.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3o_TZ5ddoTN8WgZJdagEA0

They fit well into Descent. Keep in mind this is a change that does affect game balance in many subtle ways. For example, skills that target all figures in line of sight are weaker with these rules (e.g. Army of Death, Sweep). However, since the changes affect both sides roughly equally and they can plan accordingly, it is totally worth it.

It also introduces many more strategic positioning options for both the heroes and overlord, as well as feels much more intuitive. There are far fewer cases of "What? How the heck could you see me from there?".

I would never go back to the original rule set, myself.

4 hours ago, ren6175 said:

How do you feel about other rule changes like the 2 stamina to move limit? Thanks and sorry again for being off topic.  

Unfortunately, unlike Imperial Assault, the quests, heroes and skills in this game are balanced around not having a cap to fatigue movement. Changing this would have a huge negative impact to the heroes and outright eliminate certain heroes from any kind of viability (e.g. Serena).

However, I myself have a serious beef with this rule - in particular when it relates to Stamina potions. Being able to save up 1 or 2 stamina potions and then fly across the map in a single round feels really silly, and it also can break certain quests. I would prefer to address this issue by targeting the Stamina potion itself though, rather than fatigue movement in general.

As Overlord, I usually just take Refresh and Placebo early on - and then take out this potion with extreme prejudice whenever I see it to keep it from ruining my plans - especially vs. a Fleet of Foot Wildlander.

However, I also am considering playing with Sadgit's Search Deck from Sands of the Past. This search deck wisely eliminates the problematic Stamina potion in favor of the Timmoran Shard - a far better designed potion which recovers 1 fatigue every time it is used - and it can be used 3 times (once per turn) before it is fully consumed.

https://descent-community.org/index.php/obtaining-sands-of-the-past/

I recommend checking it out.

Edited by Charmy

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On 7/10/2019 at 10:31 AM, Sadgit said:

For Lost Legends I cannot say anything as I haven't played it enough.

I just got my copy this weekend, I'm looking forward to the chance to give these classes some play and figure them out. I'll try to keep feedback for this patch in mind. Timing inconsistencies are so troublesome...

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4 hours ago, Charmy said:

Thread bump now that I've upgraded the patch from Lost Legends only to all classes in the game. (See original post edit)

Here is the link again to the new cards:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/26v7eo5m6y5qhm3/CharmyBalancePatch.pdf?dl=0

I like the idea and some cards, but not according for most.

What about the Overlord then ? Or Even some heroes ?

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2 hours ago, rugal said:

I like the idea and some cards, but not according for most.

What about the Overlord then ? Or Even some heroes ?

Thanks for checking it out rugal!

Sorry to hear you weren't a fan of most of the cards.

I do plan to get to the Overlord as well, and some of the heroes too - just haven't gotten there yet :)

 As a preview, here are two of the cards that I have plans to change on the Overlord side that I think are quite badly needed:

Quote

Call of the Ravens: When purchased, place this card in your play area. This card cannot be discarded or shuffled into your deck.
Exhaust this card at the end of your turn and choose 1 non-servant monster to suffer 4 damage. Then you may place 1 Raven Flock Servant token in an empty space adjacent to the chosen monster.

 

Raven Flock is probably the most OP thing in the game, and start of turn allows the raven to attack the same turn its created and immediately punish heroes for failing to finish off any monster that remains near them, sometimes generating health in the process (e.g. 1 health monster turns into 4 health monster). Also, the original wording allowed you to target monsters that were immune to damage because of quest rules since you created the Raven first and dealt damage second. The new wording requires that damage be suffered first, so no more immunity shenanigans allowed.

 

Quote

Ties that Bind: When purchased, place this card in your play area. This card cannot be discarded or shuffled into your deck. Exhaust this card and discard one Overlord card from your hand when a non-servant monster is defeated. Place 1 Scourge servant token in that monster's space.

 

Scourge are runner up for being really oppressive since they were a completely free monster you got every time the heroes did something they generally have no choice but to do - defeat monsters that are in the way. Now the Overlord has to pitch some excess resources to get the Scourge out there, so it can't be quite as recklessly spammed.

 

Quote

Scourge: When a hero adjacent to the Scourge suffers 1 or more fatigue from an effect other than this one, you may choose another hero to suffer 1 fatigue, up to his Stamina.
After transitioning to Act II, this servant applies +3 to its Health.

A subtle change, but an important one. This change means you cannot target Familiars and other hero figures that don't have Stamina, such as Mirror Images with the punish effect. Prior to this, the Conjurer seemed unplayable against an Overlord with Scourge, as you could chain-pop all of the Mirror Images every single time the Scourge effect was triggered by any hero, which felt awful and cheap.

===

And a sneak preview of a hero nerf and buff:

Quote

Astarra:
Max Health reduced to 8 from 10.
Once per round, you may spend 1 movement point to remove your figure from the map and place it in an empty space adjacent to 1 hero who is within 2 (down from 3) spaces of you.

Master Thorn:
Max Stamina increased to 5, from 4.

 

Edited by Charmy

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37 minutes ago, Charmy said:

Thanks for checking it out rugal!

Sorry to hear you weren't a fan of most of the cards.

I do plan to get to the Overlord as well, and some of the heroes too - just haven't gotten there yet :)

 

Maybe we can discuss this ? I've played many of thoses cards and I have a different experience, but for some choice, I do support your point of view

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- Raven flock is indeed really strong, but summoning it at the end of the turn is really too much.

And in Act 2, it is no so strong. Maybe it should cost an Overlord card to exhaust and summon it anywhere on the map ?

 

- The scourge shouldn't be changed, in my experience, it is not strong enough (I would have extend is ability to 3 spaces)

 

Many Overlord cards should have buff, in my opinion

 

- Astarra ability should be changed to "when you perform a move action, during that move, you can spend 1 movement point and choose a hero within 3 spaces of you and place your figure in an empty adjacent space to that figure"

- Lindel should have 8 health instead of 10

- Andira should have a Brown defense die

- Grisban should have "You cannot be Stun"


I really do like the changes you did on Zealous aura !

Edited by rugal

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Thank you for putting in so much time and effort into this and sharing it with us.
As soon as I read through my Lost Legends cards I also decided to make a variant of some of the unpopular class decks within my play group.
Some of the changes we've made are very similar and some are not :)

I have only done the Spiritspeaker, Necromancer, Berserker and Thief so far. <-- Check it out.

I've tried to make them feel the like the same class, but also elaborating on some of their uniqueness.
I realize now that I've probably made these classes a bit too strong, but that can be tweaked. Some idea's might be fun though. 

* The Berserker can now harm himself using rage, charge further if he is wounded.  The change I made to Rage might make picking Mordrog a no brainer though, which I don't want. Not sure if Execute needed that buff either...

* The Necromancer does not have to struggle as much with keeping his Reanimate alive and spending actions to resummon him all the time.
Since the Reanimate always have been able to roll a blue, red and yellow die if you have Vampyric Blood, you are now presented the oppertunity to
make spend surge effects on your equipped weapon instead of just : +1 🖤.
(I don't think the wording allows you to combo Undead Might with Army of Death, but I'm not a 100% sure?

* The Thief gets a a little more incentive to go melee if he wants. He can also combo things with sneaky if that's the way he wants to play. 

* The Spiritspeaker can now use Stoneskin multiple times per round and has an easier time recovering fatigue. The surge effect on Drain Spirit might be too strong though. The Nature's bounty buff seems a bit uncreative as well.

Please roast or critique my ideas all you want. I don't want to make anything busted for me and my group!

Cheers!

Edited by Dadler93
Grammar and links

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5 hours ago, rugal said:

Those are balancing I used in my games : (not sized for print, sorry for those who are interrested)

Thanks for sharing Rugal. Some interesting ideas there. Looks like we even had the same ideas in some places (e.g. Berserker Rage).

It's an interesting take removing the Scourge's ability to perform Melee attacks. Kinda invalidates certain cards, however, such as Grotesque.

I  like buff to the Magus overlord deck. I was planning a similar type of buff to Word of Pain.

Making Airborne, Contaminated and  Adaptive Contagion into always-active cards like the Familiars is a huge buff to the Infector class. Probably too big of a buff... sure would be fun to play as Overlord though! 😛

The ability to place the Reanimate on the map without an action seems too powerful to me. I do like it thematically though... powered by monster defeats, like the Soul Reaper is.

P.S. I updated the PDF with my own change to the Scourge as well as revisions to items in the Act 1 and Act 2 shop decks.

Edited by Charmy

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5 hours ago, Charmy said:

Thanks for sharing Rugal. Some interesting ideas there. Looks like we even had the same ideas in some places (e.g. Berserker Rage).

It's an interesting take removing the Scourge's ability to perform Melee attacks. Kinda invalidates certain cards, however, such as Grotesque.

I  like buff to the Magus overlord deck. I was planning a similar type of buff to Word of Pain.

Making Airborne, Contaminated and  Adaptive Contagion into always-active cards like the Familiars is a huge buff to the Infector class. Probably too big of a buff... sure would be fun to play as Overlord though! 😛

The ability to place the Reanimate on the map without an action seems too powerful to me. I do like it thematically though... powered by monster defeats, like the Soul Reaper is.

P.S. I updated the PDF with my own change to the Scourge as well as revisions to items in the Act 1 and Act 2 shop decks.

I've used some of you ideas 😉

Yes for the scourge I haven't tested it yet. 

The infector class need this type of changes at least for contaminated

I do validate Inscribed robe and Elven cloak.

I have exchanged Acts of Rune-touched leather (now Act 1) and Runeplate (now Act 2). 

Edited by rugal

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On 8/17/2019 at 1:03 PM, Charmy said:

Thread bump now that I've upgraded the patch from Lost Legends only to all classes in the game. (See original post edit)

Here is the link again to the new cards:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/26v7eo5m6y5qhm3/CharmyBalancePatch.pdf?dl=0

Avenger - Death From Above
"Exhaust this card after a monster resolves an attack tha targets another hero within 5 spaces of you" change to "Exhaust this card after a monster within 5 spaces of you resolves an attack tha targets another hero"
"...and place yourself in a space adjacent to that hero." change to "and place yourself in a space adjacent to that monster."

Edited by Антон Грудцын

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On 8/17/2019 at 4:24 PM, Dadler93 said:

Thank you for putting in so much time and effort into this and sharing it with us.
As soon as I read through my Lost Legends cards I also decided to make a variant of some of the unpopular class decks within my play group.
Some of the changes we've made are very similar and some are not :)

You're very welcome! :D

On 8/17/2019 at 4:24 PM, Dadler93 said:

I have only done the Spiritspeaker, Necromancer, Berserker and Thief so far. <-- Check it out.

I've tried to make them feel the like the same class, but also elaborating on some of their uniqueness.
I realize now that I've probably made these classes a bit too strong, but that can be tweaked. Some idea's might be fun though. 

* The Berserker can now harm himself using rage, charge further if he is wounded.  The change I made to Rage might make picking Mordrog a no brainer though, which I don't want. Not sure if Execute needed that buff either...

I think its interesting to be able to damage yourself to deal more damage, but I worry this might be too strong when combined with a hero like Krutzbeck, or skills like the Berserker's Death Rage that deal more damage when the hero is damaged. Currently the Overlord has the ability to avoid damaging Krutzbeck/Berserker and focus on other heroes instead to mitigate the effectiveness of those skills. When the hero can damage themselves at will, less counterplay is possible.

I like the idea of buffing Shared Pain and Drain Spirit in some way... Although they scale well into Vigor/Ancestor's Spirits, they still feel a little lacking, especially compared to what a Bard can do passively. Stoneskin definitely needed the help, and I like the idea of including Condition removal as part of Healing Rain to make up for a major shortcoming in the Spiritspeaker.

The Reanimate getting the surge abilities of your weapon is a nice change that makes the Reanimate feel less dull - a +1 damage surge is kinda uninspiring. However, there is now another option in the game to spice up familiars like the Wolf and the Reanimate  - including a Heretic in the party with Forbidden Arts. This gives them the ability to surge for +2 damage and to poison - quite nice!

Overall, these changes go farther than I would go in a balance patch - it feels more like a full reworking of these classes. I tried to avoid doing that for the classes outside of Lost Legends because I don't think they needed that much work. I definitely went more into full rework mode with Lost Legends though - I feel that expansion had very many serious problems as printed.

On 8/17/2019 at 4:24 PM, Dadler93 said:

* The Necromancer does not have to struggle as much with keeping his Reanimate alive and spending actions to resummon him all the time.
Since the Reanimate always have been able to roll a blue, red and yellow die if you have Vampyric Blood, you are now presented the oppertunity to
make spend surge effects on your equipped weapon instead of just : +1 🖤.
(I don't think the wording allows you to combo Undead Might with Army of Death, but I'm not a 100% sure?

Undead Might can be combined with Army of Death, so I worry this combination is too strong with the updated card.

On 8/17/2019 at 4:24 PM, Dadler93 said:

* The Thief gets a a little more incentive to go melee if he wants. He can also combo things with sneaky if that's the way he wants to play. 

Dirty Tricks getting poison is a neat idea. :) Definitely makes the skill a little more attractive, although Stun on demand is already pretty handy.

I don't know if Bushwhack needs a buff - its already a pretty great skill...

Also missing a word "...exhaust this card during your turn to attack..."

On 8/17/2019 at 4:24 PM, Dadler93 said:

* The Spiritspeaker can now use Stoneskin multiple times per round and has an easier time recovering fatigue. The surge effect on Drain Spirit might be too strong though. The Nature's bounty buff seems a bit uncreative as well.

I'd be curious to see what you'd think of having Nature's Bounty function essentially the same way that a Rest action in Imperial Assault does (e.g. You recover health equal to your Stamina, minus the current fatigue on your character)

On 8/17/2019 at 4:24 PM, Dadler93 said:

Please roast or critique my ideas all you want. I don't want to make anything busted for me and my group!

Cheers!

These updates definitely make those classes more fun to play and open up more build options and inject some life into otherwise unplayed classes and skill cards.

15 hours ago, Антон Грудцын said:

Avenger - Death From Above
"Exhaust this card after a monster resolves an attack tha targets another hero within 5 spaces of you" change to "Exhaust this card after a monster within 5 spaces of you resolves an attack tha targets another hero"
"...and place yourself in a space adjacent to that hero." change to "and place yourself in a space adjacent to that monster."

I like the idea of this change to Death From Above in that  it makes it more thematically accurate. (e.g. Why is Death from Above dropping you next to the hero rather than the monster)? However, counterplay might be a too easy for the Overlord in some cases as a result, as they can then use ranged attackers to take out your allies without ever triggering the skill, depending on positioning. Would be worth play testing though!

6 hours ago, thinkbomb said:

quick question on cursed - by "monster skill" would this include passive abilities such as Sneaky?

Sneaky isn't a monster skill as far as I know. Do you mean "Stealthy"? If you do, then no, Cursed only affects monster actions. That is, abilities on the monster that are used via the 'action' symbol, such as the Bandit's Pillage and the Blood Ape's Leap Attack.

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11 hours ago, Charmy said:

Sneaky isn't a monster skill as far as I know. Do you mean "Stealthy"? If you do, then no, Cursed only affects monster actions. That is, abilities on the monster that are used via the 'action' symbol, such as the Bandit's Pillage and the Blood Ape's Leap Attack.

yeah, I meant stealthy.  ^^;

So, to be clear - this is just a gramatics suggestion.  I love the mechanics improvement of the new Cursed ability.

I think you could condense it be omitting mention of heroes and monsters and just leaving that aspect as "you cannot use abilities denoted with [action symbol]" ... or something to that tune.  I'm just not seeing the reason to differentiate, and less text is always better.  ^_^

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