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Archangelspiv

Points and adjustments

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Hey everybody!

sitting in the airport and my mind wandered to, is FFG using points to make ships/upgrades unplayable? Or are they using points to make ships/upgrades cost what they should cost. 

For example, Super Natural Reflexes. 8 points on a Int 3 inquisitor seems ok, 32 points on Vader seems prohibitive. I understand why it is costed so much, but is 32 over the top? You can get a decent named TIE for that. I am not arguing for or against the current points system, just curious on people’s thoughts on FFGs direction with it. 

I will add though, there does not seem consistency with the current points. Would you rather Scum Fenn at 68, or Imperial Delta Defender at 69 now? (It used to be 70, not sure if they dropped it by 1 or 2 points).

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4 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

is FFG using points to make ships/upgrades unplayable? Or are they using points to make ships/upgrades cost what they should cost. 

I think it's a mixture, rather than one or the other. We've seen some combination of ships/upgrades/lists that should be unplayable for the greater good of the competitive scene and overall experience of the game. On the other side, they're paying pretty close attention to how ships/upgrades are being used and each wave of content gives them a better understanding of what each ship/upgrade should cost.

I don't think we'll reach a place where everyone is happy, but I honestly think they're trying their best to deliver a great playing experience.

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In think it is a mix of those.  I wish there was more of a way of fixing other than poi ts.  I do think adjusting the upgrade slots is a good thing.

However, I am a little salty due to the fact that the K-fighter doesnt have a boost when the ship is on the engine upgrade card.

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16 hours ago, martini74 said:

However, I am a little salty due to the fact that the K-fighter doesnt have a boost when the ship is on the engine upgrade card.

It's insane to me that it doesn't have a red boost

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Posted (edited)

Upgrades that are priced into Oblivion simply don't fit in second edition

SNR is some 1st edition **** (incredibly action efficient; can't be blocked) whereas Advanced Sensors (2nd Ed) set the standard of what it should have been by costing your action step. 

As for Defender v rau, it's an irrelevant comparison. The Defender is far tankier and more flexible thanks to the white 4k. Rau's dependency on linked actions to not pop at a measly 4 hull is a real drawback when compared to the full throttle Delta. Makes sense that he's I 6 and with a super strong ability, then 

In a late game scenario, the Delta should trounce Rau as Rau only wins in a dice trade at Range 1. As I discovered last Ed, it doesn't matter how predictable a white 4k is, stressed aces just can't handle getting pegged from behind (phrasing)

Meanwhile, Rau can initiative kill the **** out of you with a little help from his friends 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Point correction is a never-ending process. Often, points are over corrected, other times they are under-corrected.

While Supernatural Reflexes is expensive, it makes Vader so formidable that the cost is (arguably) justified.

You can get a TIE Fighter for that, but that TIE fighter is unlikely to give you the ability to solo an apponent's list.

If your squad strategy is Ace play, then SNR on Vader is possibly a sound, but expensive choice.

If your squad strategy is TIE swarm or something else, then the TIE fighter may be the correct choice.

 

I think it's best to look at these things as an imperfect and iterative process that does not occur in a closed system. We may arrive at a point where SNR is priced correctly, but the introduction of a new ship or pilot or even the modification to the price of an existing ship or upgrade pushes the previously perfectly costed SNR in one direction or the other.

Frankly, I think SNR is priced appropriately (give or take a couple points).

 

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30 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Is SNR Vader really capable of soloing another list? I find it unlikely. Add autothrusters? 

What do you take with him? 

Standard builds almost always include autothrusters, yes. Often, but not always, Fire Control System as well.

Unless you were playing against an extremely poor opponent you could probably not literally set a 105-point Vader on the table and hope to solo an opponent;s 200-point list.

What you will see regularly, however, is Vader and his team taking out one or two opposing ships before Vader loses his friends. Then it's "Vader against the world", which is a quote I've heard many many times, but do not understand its origin. Regardless, depending on who won the bid, SNR Vader will often pull these matches off.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

, is FFG using points to make ships/upgrades unplayable?

Yes.  They can soft ban cards that are wrecking the meta without all the whining of "I paid for that and I expect to be able to play it!!!!!"

Quote

Or are they using points to make ships/upgrades cost what they should cost. 

As is pointed out above, what a card "should cost" is a moving target based on both:

A.  what newly released materials do to interactions with that card

and

B.  what is being overplayed and needs to be killed to keep the meta "fresh".

The idea that there is some raw number out there that is the perfect price for each card and just needs to be "discovered" is lunacy, especially when 0.5% levels of efficiency are exploited.  No one can design a game to that exacting of a specification.  Which means the next best thing is to just keep stirring the soup so nothing can settle out.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Upgrades that are priced into Oblivion simply don't fit in second edition

SNR is some 1st edition **** (incredibly action efficient; can't be blocked) whereas Advanced Sensors (2nd Ed) set the standard of what it should have been by costing your action step. 

little elaboration on this:

I wouldn't say that Supernatural Reflexes or Gunner Luke -strictly- don't belong in 2.0, but in the same breath I also wouldn't say that they're -strictly- priced into oblivion.

I personally enjoy flying Supernatural Reflexes on I3 Inquisitors, and I intend to try it on the Grand Inquisitor at my next chance. Paying 24 points to put it on Inqy or Luke is definitely appropriate as it gives them some incredible action economy and positioning. But at the end of the day, Inqy is 4 health and 2-attack, and Luke doesn't have boost and 3 attack dice in the same round without taking damage. Even Vader can't get boost without losing 20% of his health, and while this does prevent him from being blocked, You can still cover every possible ending location with 2-3 arcs fairly easily. Even Supernatural Kylo can be covered completely in 4 arcs, and remember that neither Vader nor Kylo has the evade action, so they're susceptible to bad dice. It's a bit of a cost-benefit tradeoff; every positioning advantage should come at the cost of more arcs on target. I think the current pricing structure does that well.

Besides, I like that there exist upgrades that are prohibitively expensive, but that really unlock a new way of approaching the game if you're willing to pay through the nose to get them.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Besides, I like that there exist upgrades that are prohibitively expensive, but that really unlock a new way of approaching the game if you're willing to pay through the nose to get them.

Also consider that Epic play will open these cards up.  10+ points isn't a killer investment in a 600 point game.

High cost cards that are unusually strong will be, well, epic.

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1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Also consider that Epic play will open these cards up.  10+ points isn't a killer investment in a 600 point game.

High cost cards that are unusually strong will be, well, epic.

True, but Luke Gunner and Supernatural Reflexes aren't as valuable in a target rich environment

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1 hour ago, Alpha Kenny Buddy said:

I like that everyone is complaining that Luke Gunner is priced into oblivion, while at the same time the Fat Han build was using Luke Gunner and everyone was complaining about that. 

 

Maybe people just like complaining, and not the cards themselves that are the problem. 

I think you didn't understand the fat han build or the role of luke gunner in there.

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