Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Boom Owl

Should Dial Revealing Cards Exist?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Simple answer yes.

Cards like Sense etc. offer a relatively unique counter to Initiative 6 ships with a bid that really don't have any pre-existing counters.

 Typically speaking high initiative ships with a bid get more value from the bid than the total cost of the bid, otherwise you would just spend the points on upgrades that give you more value so that's not disputable. allowing the lower initiative ships to see where a high initiative ship is intending to go flips the tables on the opponent who is expecting to have perfect knowledge of opposing ships when those high initiative ships activate.

I will say that currently there are only a few of these types of effects and that is a good thing, however with more being added that have a similar affect on future knowledge i.e. Passive sensors it could get to the point where the value of higher initiative is washed away completely and we go back to generic swarms filling the board.

so in general having these effects is a good thing, but it would be better if they didn't become too widely available.

Edited by Mace Windu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah of course, dial reveal gives part but not all the advantage of higher-Ini, totally within the 2.0 spirit. Sense is one of the more interesting checks to balance post-maneuver econs ships (Juke Phantoms, Vader, afterburner ships, etc) and its totally thematic. It'd be a different story if force users were undercosted and dominating the meta, but that's not the case at all.

For those uninitiated:

@Boom Owl and a few other "top minds" of the krayts thread have labeled a whole host of upgrade/abilities (advanced sensors, all force, etc) in 2.0 as "dial casual" and decided they are 2.0 cancer and bad for the game at any cost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, they should exist. We've never really seen them show up as particularly powerful/meta defining, and they (thankfully) mitigate to a minor extent the advantages that aces have in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Provided FFG doesn't let them be put on a large base with an amazing dial and a white barrel roll, while also letting this ship carry a triple-modified 4-dice gun, and let the whole thing cost less than 66 points, dial-reveal abilities are fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm fine with the idea existing in general. It's more a case of who can get it, at what cost.

Dial-reveal abilities still only work after your dial is locked in.

So whilst you get to 'react' to your opponent's planned move, spending points to do that is in theory no different to spending points to react to your opponent's previous move (i.e. "buying a higher initiative pilot").

Where it's going to be a problem is that, obviously, it allows you to react with all your ships with knowledge of what your opponent's doing, and hence the cost and/or difficulty of triggering it needs to reflect this.

Taking Snoke as an example, you get to reveal 1 ship's dial per turn, and spend snoke's force token to do so (meaning the expensive double-crew does nothing else for you that turn), and he needs a massively expensive Upsilon (which can't react to the information because it has no repositioning ability of any kind) to sit on whilst he does it.

A swarm of Jedi with Sense - who essentially get it 'for free' against any ship in a range 1 knife fight, and get the free boosts and barrel roll to exploit that knowledge, along with cheap, barrel rolling V-19 blockers...I can see that potentially more of an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I honestly think they're pretty mediocre design, at best.

There are a few ways they work, IMO:

- Minimal reactivity.  Your list has a dial revealer, but no repositioning or friendly dial alteration.  You're using your knowledge of their dial mostly to judge whether to focus or evade, or whether to reposition front or back.  Just bad in this instance, why did you take it at all.

- Low reactivity.  One or two repositions in the list, no friendly dial alteration.  Can be useful for getting a key block or arc dodge, but marginal at best.

- Moderate reactivity.  Multiple repositioning ships (either lots of ships with single repositions, or small numbers with double repositions) or friendly dial alteration.  Better here, but in most cases, you don't need it, and if you bring it, it's a crutch that prevents you getting good at judging your opponent's moves without it.

- High reactivity.  Multiple repositions before and/or after dials, repositions and friendly dial alterations on the same ship.  Mostly, you don't need it here because you have SUCH high flexibility that you can essentially always choose the best place to go regardless, and whilst it might help a bit against higher-init pilots with low reactivity, or lower-init pilots getting unexpected blocks, it's again pretty marginal, with the major exception of something like Handbrake Han which can choose from a huge range of positions off a single dial - and in those cases, it's broken, because it allows you to make that choice with perfect information.

Plus, only three out of the five options to look at dials, (Sense, Snoke, Cassian crew, Intel Agent, and Vi Moradi) let you choose any ship you want, and only one of those is not Limited, which means that the options are pretty poor for actually getting your choices right.

The best use case is when you have moderate or high reactivity, particularly with friendly dial alteration or pseudo dial alteration with pre-move boosts/SV rolls, and your flip target can essentially choose one of two moves with broadly equal likelihood, and you have to commit to one of them - in that instance it allows you not to have to make an essentially 50:50 gamble, and in that case it pays off.

In all the other cases it's mediocre at best, or a crutch that stops you learning, when it's not outright broken and removing the single most important aspect of the game - judging your opponent's positioning and out-thinking them such that you have guns on them and they don't have guns on you.

 

In short, the whole mechanic is bad, but it's mostly bad, rather than broken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course they should exist. The debate is whether or not they are appropriately 'costed' (be that points cost, opportunity cost for the slot, opportunity cost for activation, opportunity cost of picking who to look at, or a combination of all of them). Given that we aren't all suffering under the tyranny of SenseJedi or IntelAgentAnything in big tournaments or regular local play (I've not heard anyone grumbling at least), I'd say that they are in the correct place right now, neither earth-shatteringly potent or hilariously weak.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I honestly think they're pretty mediocre design, at best....

In short, the whole mechanic is bad, but it's mostly bad, rather than broken.

Strangely, I agree with all of that, except my conclusion is that it's OK and fine at the current level :D

Anything more than where it is now, it becomes horrible and oppressive.

Had some trials with Sense.

4 CLT Sense Jedi was an absolute pig to play against, until there was 3 of them, then they folded. Verdict- Bad.

Sense 7th Sister informing Echo decloaks was kinda broken. But so incredibly hard to plan around that it's barely worth the migraine. Verdict- Nonsense. But it did illustrate how close dial reveal can come to being downright horrible bull***t.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

No.
Just make high init cost more.

 

GeneralHux.jpg.b2d2c2d75031d190d3b2a7a73c68a194.jpg

 

Also, I'm okay with dial revealing stuff existing in the game, very cost dependent and while it does help against higher initiative ships, one of the best dial revealing upgrades, Sense, is more likely to be taken on i4+ ships anyway via Jedi like Obi Wan and Mace. I'm just against the existence of sense helping ships I'm already trying to sense against. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Really never thought these cards would see so much 9-point Hate, considering all higher I ships already have this advantage 😛

seriously, dial revealing occurs naturally and having an upgrade that flips one prematurely doesn't actually do anything outside of change the order in which dials would be revealed.

i.e they don't control your movement like ion/tractor nor do they affect I or otherwise affect the order in which ships move/shoot

and considering non-Sense options are restricted to pilot-specific conditions (listening device/compromising Intel) while Sense itself costs a resource (forcus), there's really no way to claim they make things "autopilot" for a player either. At least, definitely nowhere near as auto pilot as just having a higher Initiative +/- bid 

 

in short, higher I already has this dial-revealing advantage (and MUCH more) and giving it to lower I at a fairly significant cost is fine. 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

in short, higher I already has this dial-revealing advantage (and MUCH more) and giving it to lower I at a fairly significant cost is fine. 

I think in large part Sense and things like it are currently used to make High Init ships moving last better? Rey, Vader, Obi-Wan, etc. 
They get all the advantages of moving last against i5 below, and less of the disadvantage of moving first against i5 and above. 
On net it might just let list builders fill out Aces lists for "better" jousts against low init. Could lead to smaller bids but at what cost?
Thats lots of speculation on my part. 

Again, not condemning the card. Just questioning who its helping I guess?
Im not convinced its working to counter the movement order puzzle or helping the little low init guys.
On paper it looks like thats what its doing, but in practice...seems like the opposite. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Again, not condemning the card. Just questioning who its helping I guess?
Im not convinced its working to counter the movement order puzzle or helping the little low init guys.
On paper it looks like thats what its doing, but in practice...seems like the opposite. 

I agree! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't get why high I would waste five points on sense instead of a bid?

I guess if you're i5 against i6 but still doesn't seem like a great investment unless you've got low initiative ships in your squad that can also benefit 

Cause otherwise you're just wasting five points against certain matchups 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

I don't get why high I would waste five points on sense instead of a bid?

I guess if you're i5 against i6 but still doesn't seem like a great investment unless you've got low initiative ships in your squad that can also benefit 

Cause otherwise you're just wasting five points against certain matchups 

Something along these lines is what @Starslinger72 has been working on. It helps protect the i6s from being blocked on top of helping to setup blocks on aces lower than i6. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I don't get why high I would waste five points on sense instead of a bid?

I guess if you're i5 against i6 but still doesn't seem like a great investment unless you've got low initiative ships in your squad that can also benefit 

Cause otherwise you're just wasting five points against certain matchups 

Saeese Tin. Add Arcs to flavor.

Actually one of my favorite lists to fly is Sense Saeese with Wolffe and Supernatural Mace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, RStan said:

Something along these lines is what @Starslinger72 has been working on. It helps protect the i6s from being blocked on top of helping to setup blocks on aces lower than i6. 

So...it's benefitting the low Is more 

The benefit against other I 6 is situational by nature ( only works against other I 6) and is here instead heavily buffing the utility of scrub TIEs without needing Howlie. Seems fine to me, especially since it eats Vader force and apparently the points for fcs and predator too

55 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Saeese Tin. Add Arcs to flavor.

Actually one of my favorite lists to fly is Sense Saeese with Wolffe and Supernatural Mace.

I4 isn't I 5-6 😛

also I wouldnt sense on Sae because you burn both her force in one round between Sense and her ability 

Edited by ficklegreendice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...