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Derrault

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Starter CIS listing: 768 (adjustments TBD based on heavy + other add ons)

Commander: (201)

General Grievous (175) + Esteemed Leader (10) + Commanding Presence (10) + Endurance (6) = 201

 

Support: (315)

Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105

Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105

Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105

 

Corps: (252)

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, not much to change there, is it? 😛 after tuesday hopefully we shall see the points for B1's heavy weapons.

 

That said, I'd made some changes:

Commander: (191)

General Grievous (175) + Esteemed Leader (5) + Strict Orders (5) + Endurance (6) = 191

 

Support: (315)

3x Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 315

 

Corps: (252)

3x B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 126

2x B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + HQ Uplink (10) = 104

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + Comms Relay (5) = 47

With coordinate on droids you need to only have to get one unit of the chain in range to hand out tokens like crazy, so Commanding Presence on Grevious is a waste. And Esteemed Leader is 5 points, not 10. I added comms on some B1's to get better control ober 1-pip turns and Droidekas. There is still 17 points left of wiggle room, and another 36 points in extra droids - those will possibly be swapped for heavy weapons and/or armament for Grevious 😛

 

Edited by Shanturin
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1 hour ago, Shanturin said:

Yeah, not much to change there, is it? 😛 after tuesday hopefully we shall see the points for B1's heavy weapons.

 

That said, I'd made some changes:

Commander: (191)

General Grievous (175) + Esteemed Leader (5) + Strict Orders (5) + Endurance (6) = 191

 

Support: (315)

3x Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 315

 

Corps: (252)

3x B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 126

2x B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + HQ Uplink (10) = 104

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + Comms Relay (5) = 47

With coordinate on droids you need to only have to get one unit of the chain in range to hand out tokens like crazy, so Commanding Presence on Grevious is a waste. And Esteemed Leader is 5 points, not 10. I added comms on some B1's to get better control ober 1-pip turns and Droidekas. There is still 17 points left of wiggle room, and another 36 points in extra droids - those will possibly be swapped for heavy weapons and/or armament for Grevious 😛

 

I’m anticipating discrete groups of Droids set apart from each other in order to reach far flung objectives. 

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8 hours ago, Derrault said:

I’m anticipating discrete groups of Droids set apart from each other in order to reach far flung objectives. 

I'd still use HQ Uplinks for that - if you dispatch a B1 unit away from main forces it won't be able to benefit from coordinate, and if you issue an order directly to them over the main bunch of your forces, you might jeopardize your overall effectiveness. Still, to each their own - I do think Commanding Presence to be a weak card regardless of any other circumstances :P

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@Shanturin
"I'd still use HQ Uplinks for that - if you dispatch a B1 unit away from main forces it won't be able to benefit from coordinate, and if you issue an order directly to them over the main bunch of your forces, you might jeopardize your overall effectiveness. Still, to each their own - I do think Commanding Presence to be a weak card regardless of any other circumstances"

The issue is the uplink only works one round, or starts eating your activations...which maybe you want to basically sacrifice a unit to just being an order token  (because if it takes any incoming fire, it's not going to be able to do anything but recover to maintain order token control).

For the same price, you don't have to expend a recover action, and you can, on 4/7 cards (4/6 rounds) ensure at least two order tokens get given out.


I think we're imagining different deployment structures as well; I probably wouldn't dispatch a single B1 unit on its own, instead with the makeup above, it's very likely the chain would be like this: Three companies, each consisting of: 2x B1 Droid units + 1x Droidekas, Grievous located within range 4 of each (and preferably co-located with one to take advantage of those 9 wounds to try and shrug off enemy ranged attacks.

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Wouldn't you want Strict orders on Grievous in order to mitigate some suppression issues due to his low courage? Unless he is not allowed to use Strict orders on himself, this would give him an extra suppression removal at the end of the turn (Endurance), and another one as he activates. I think this will be huge for mirror match-ups where droideka's target Grievous with their suppressive weapons. Thoughts?

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On 7/7/2019 at 1:57 PM, Derrault said:

Starter CIS listing: 768 (adjustments TBD based on heavy + other add ons)

Commander: (201)

General Grievous (175) + Esteemed Leader (10) + Commanding Presence (10) + Endurance (6) = 201

 

Support: (315)

Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105

Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105

Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105

 

Corps: (252)

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) = 42

Any changes to the list now that heavy weapons have been released for the droids?

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Right now I'd go with 

798/800

General Grievous (191)
- Aggressive Tactics
- Endurance

4x B1 Battle Droids (240)
- E-5C B1 Trooper
- B1 Battle Droid

1x B1 Battle Droids (52)
- B1 Battle Droid
- HQ Uplink

3x Droidekas (315)
- Linked Targeting Array

 

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7 hours ago, R3dReVenge said:

Any changes to the list now that heavy weapons have been released for the droids?

Ok, based on the stream, I'd add Grievous's weapon, and on balance I'd rather swap Commanding presence for Aggressive tactics.
Droidekas left the same; B1 battle droids I dropped a unit and added 1x E-SC and 2x E-60Rs. To support the Rocket Launchers that need to spend an action to recover after firing (and so might not get aim tokens), I've dropped the extra battle droids on two of the plain units and added electrobinoculars. Their 'one job' is pretty much to spot for the rocket launcher units (but also to provide bodies for Grievous's esteemed leader).

I ended up selecting the two rocket launchers just because without that the droid army would have basically no other impact besides Grievous himself, and I think it wouldn't be too hard to ensure that they always have orders. (Also, had to clean up some of the costs, I just realized I was overpricing Esteemed Leader).

Starter CIS listing: 795

Commander: (208) 
General Grievous (175) + Esteemed Leader (5) + Aggressive Tactics (10) + Hunter (6) + DT-57 "Annihilator" (12) = 213  

Support: (315) 
Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105 
Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105 
Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105 

Corps: (272) 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-SC B1 Trooper (18) = 60 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-60R B1 Trooper (20) = 62
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-60R B1 Trooper (20) = 62 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + Electrobinoculars (8) = 44
B1 Battle Droids (36) + Electrobinoculars (8) = 44

Command Cards:
4 - Standing Orders
3 - Crush Them! (General Grievous), Assault (Generic)
2 - Supreme Commander (General Grievous), Push (Generic)
1 - Trained in Your Jedi Arts (General Grievous), Ambush (Generic)

OCD Deck:
Objectives - Breakthrough, Sabotage the Moisture Vaporators, Key Positions, Intercept the Transmissions.
Conditions - Hostile Environment, Minefield, Rapid Reinforcements, Clear Conditions
Deployment - Battle Lines, The Long March, Advanced Positions, Major Offensive

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Ok, based on the stream, I'd add Grievous's weapon, and on balance I'd rather swap Commanding presence for Aggressive tactics.
Droidekas left the same; B1 battle droids I dropped a unit and added 1x E-SC and 2x E-60Rs. To support the Rocket Launchers that need to spend an action to recover after firing (and so might not get aim tokens), I've dropped the extra battle droids on two of the plain units and added electrobinoculars. Their 'one job' is pretty much to spot for the rocket launcher units (but also to provide bodies for Grievous's esteemed leader).

I ended up selecting the two rocket launchers just because without that the droid army would have basically no other impact besides Grievous himself, and I think it wouldn't be too hard to ensure that they always have orders. (Also, had to clean up some of the costs, I just realized I was overpricing Esteemed Leader).

Starter CIS listing: 795

Commander: (208) 
General Grievous (175) + Esteemed Leader (5) + Aggressive Tactics (10) + Hunter (6) + DT-57 "Annihilator" (12) = 213  

Support: (315) 
Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105 
Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105 
Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105 

Corps: (272) 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-SC B1 Trooper (18) = 60 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-60R B1 Trooper (20) = 62
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-60R B1 Trooper (20) = 62 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + Electrobinoculars (8) = 44
B1 Battle Droids (36) + Electrobinoculars (8) = 44

Command Cards:
4 - Standing Orders
3 - Crush Them! (General Grievous), Assault (Generic)
2 - Supreme Commander (General Grievous), Push (Generic)
1 - Trained in Your Jedi Arts (General Grievous), Ambush (Generic)

OCD Deck:
Objectives - Breakthrough, Sabotage the Moisture Vaporators, Key Positions, Intercept the Transmissions.
Conditions - Hostile Environment, Minefield, Rapid Reinforcements, Clear Conditions
Deployment - Battle Lines, The Long March, Advanced Positions, Major Offensive

Maybe drop the 3rd Droideka unit to add a 6th B``1 squad and to give the last 3 B1 units special weapons? I don't know how useful Electrobionulars will be though. You are paying 8 points + 1 action to give another unit an aim token. Maybe it will get better once we get more units, but it seems pretty weak on B1s.

This is what I'm thinking: 

http://tabletopadmiral.com/legion/separatist/p2du1au68u21u6ep26u6au5eu29uEMp26u6au5euEMuEMp2bu63p2bu63p26u69u5euEMuEMp26u6au5euEMuEMp26u6au5euEMuEMp26u69u5euEMuEMc07c34c03c32c09c35c08 

Commander: (208) 
General Grievous (175) + Esteemed Leader (5) + Aggressive Tactics (10) + Hunter (6) + DT-57 "Annihilator" (12) = 213  

Support: (210) 
Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105 
Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105 
 

Corps: (272) 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-60R B1 Trooper (20) + HQ uplink (10) = 72
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-60R B1 Trooper (20) = 62 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-SC B1 Trooper (18) = 60 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-SC B1 Trooper (18) = 60 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-SC B1 Trooper (18) = 60 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-SC B1 Trooper (18) = 60 
 

798. 

You can swap out 1 E-SC B1 for a E-60R B1 and you'll be at 800 points on the dot. 

 

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34 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

Maybe drop the 3rd Droideka unit to add a 6th B``1 squad and to give the last 3 B1 units special weapons? I don't know how useful Electrobionulars will be though. You are paying 8 points + 1 action to give another unit an aim token. Maybe it will get better once we get more units, but it seems pretty weak on B1s.

This is what I'm thinking: 

http://tabletopadmiral.com/legion/separatist/p2du1au68u21u6ep26u6au5eu29uEMp26u6au5euEMuEMp2bu63p2bu63p26u69u5euEMuEMp26u6au5euEMuEMp26u6au5euEMuEMp26u69u5euEMuEMc07c34c03c32c09c35c08 

Commander: (208) 
General Grievous (175) + Esteemed Leader (5) + Aggressive Tactics (10) + Hunter (6) + DT-57 "Annihilator" (12) = 213  

Support: (210) 
Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105 
Droidekas (100) + Linked Targeting Array (5) = 105 
 

Corps: (272) 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-60R B1 Trooper (20) + HQ uplink (10) = 72
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-60R B1 Trooper (20) = 62 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-SC B1 Trooper (18) = 60 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-SC B1 Trooper (18) = 60 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-SC B1 Trooper (18) = 60 
B1 Battle Droids (36) + B1 Battle Droid (6) + E-SC B1 Trooper (18) = 60 
 

798. 

You can swap out 1 E-SC B1 for a E-60R B1 and you'll be at 800 points on the dot. 

 

I was consciously avoiding max points to bid for the OCD deck, mostly to avoid Disarray and Recover the Supplies, both of which are negatives for the CIS, imho. 

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59 minutes ago, Derrault said:

I was consciously avoiding max points to bid for the OCD deck, mostly to avoid Disarray and Recover the Supplies, both of which are negatives for the CIS, imho. 

Makes sense. I also don't know how valuable a 3rd rocket would be. If you really want to bid, you can always drop Esteemed Leader from Grevious.

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On 7/11/2019 at 4:04 AM, Derrault said:

I was consciously avoiding max points to bid for the OCD deck, mostly to avoid Disarray and Recover the Supplies, both of which are negatives for the CIS, imho. 

That's really good point! I guess you'd want what? Key Positions is super good, Intercept is good, Breakthrough can be good to neutral, Vaps are neutral. You'd want Limited Vis (until we get snipers) or Hostile Env. (no suppression, yay!), avoid minefields and rapid reinf., with clear being neutral as usual. I'm torn on deployments, as Long March may be a double-edged sword - it requires clustering, which is what you want to do anyway, but it is sooooooooo far from the enemy...

Anyway, do you consider E-60R to be vital? I mean, almost half of what you roll with droids will be crits anyway, why exhaust?

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8 hours ago, Shanturin said:

That's really good point! I guess you'd want what? Key Positions is super good, Intercept is good, Breakthrough can be good to neutral, Vaps are neutral. You'd want Limited Vis (until we get snipers) or Hostile Env. (no suppression, yay!), avoid minefields and rapid reinf., with clear being neutral as usual. I'm torn on deployments, as Long March may be a double-edged sword - it requires clustering, which is what you want to do anyway, but it is sooooooooo far from the enemy...

Anyway, do you consider E-60R to be vital? I mean, almost half of what you roll with droids will be crits anyway, why exhaust?

I thinking having one is vital because that unit will already be recovering due to HQ uplink. It also gives a little AV (I bet vehicles will become more prominent in future waves).

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12 hours ago, Shanturin said:

That's really good point! I guess you'd want what? Key Positions is super good, Intercept is good, Breakthrough can be good to neutral, Vaps are neutral. You'd want Limited Vis (until we get snipers) or Hostile Env. (no suppression, yay!), avoid minefields and rapid reinf., with clear being neutral as usual. I'm torn on deployments, as Long March may be a double-edged sword - it requires clustering, which is what you want to do anyway, but it is sooooooooo far from the enemy...

Anyway, do you consider E-60R to be vital? I mean, almost half of what you roll with droids will be crits anyway, why exhaust?

Yeah, I mean, I think I actually really like Minefield for the droids, if only because they can just stroll into them not caring.

Like, just roll your Droidekas in turn one, and take care of all the damage using shield tokens, so that you get that free regen immediately;

Or march B1 squads right in, you're only risking 6 points per casualty; whereas GAR is risking 13+ points per wound taken!
Even if the field double detonates that's just 24 points lost, whereas if the GAR goes in they could lose an entire base unit worth 52 points.

And, sure, the clone troopers have +2 chance to save per die vis the droids, but you can mitigate some of that by throwing surge tokens on those droids (or, using those Droidekas as mine plowers)

On balance if the mines are placed close enough, I'd use droidekas, noting they pretty much have to be in walker mode, since going wheelie means no shield use, and the mines have blast, so cover 2 is of no benefit on that specific attack (Now, one might want it if they think they'll get shot at later in the round, and have no shot on their own activation; but that's a pretty niche situation where it'd be worth the trade off). If they're farish off, use the cheap droids bodies to soak them.


I'm ok with Long March; Droids are speed 2, Droidekas are speed 3 in wheelie, Grievous is speed 2 with scuttle, nothing really slow. 

Rapid Reinforcements is neutral to me; better than clear conditions imo, especially as Imperials have a lot of range 4 weaponry (DLTs, Mortars, Snipers, Veers Command card, oh my), Rebels have some (Pathfinders, X-34, Snipers, Leia Command Card) and we've seen just one range 4 weapon for CIS (the rocket launcher). I expect GAR is going to have at least as much range 4 weaponry as the rebels, probably as much as the empire.

Here's the thing, thus far in tournament meta, players seem to be focusing a whole lot on infantry, so that Impact is kind of meh, right? But CIS has a bunch of suppression weaponry, and is basically immune to the same (If the droids hug Grievous, they won't panic until 4 suppression, and they won't lose any actions in the meantime, the same definitely can't be said for their opponents). 

I'm thinking CIS will force a shift in the meta, because they can trade fire with an opposing force and actually win the war of action economy. The way to deal with those would be to bring armored units (Flamer AT-RT for those giant droid units, for example) and the only way to plausibly deal with an AT-RT for the CIS is to bring Impact Weapons. Otherwise they're rolling an 'average' of .75 crits on the base B1 unit; .875 on base + b1 droid; 1.25 crits on base + b1 + either heavy (10 dice).

1.25 crits is ~1 damage per attack. That means you pretty much will not kill an AT-RT flamer before it can get a shot off; 2 black crit surge dice per droid (that's 18 dice!; for an 'average' of 11.25 hit/crits!; droids save 1/6 (beside surge) for an estimated 9.375 wounds.

So on average the AT-RT wipes an entire B1 unit if it gets into range.

The Rocket changes the equation in that it doesn't have cumbersome (so the droids can maneuver to move+fire or fire+move and keep that AT-RT at distance); and the Impact 2 gets used: That rocket + full unit average 2.25 hits + 1.25 crits for 3.25 total after impact converts, and 2.708333 average wounds. That's enough to severely wound the AT-RT in just 2 attacks, not 6 using the E-5C, and (maybe) even kill it.

So, yeah, I expect a sea change once CIS enters the game, to increase the amount of armored units involved, Droids never losing an action to suppression and having suppressive weapons on their support sounds just brutal, but they basically do nothing at all to armor without that upgrade.

So, yea, you could try to skip by it, but I like to hedge, at least a little, against a list that would be a hard counter.

@R3dReVenge
"I thinking having one is vital because that unit will already be recovering due to HQ uplink. It also gives a little AV (I bet vehicles will become more prominent in future waves). "

Agreed, if you're going to run one tapping item (and plan to eventually recover), it makes sense to run as many as you physically can on that same unit.

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