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Bucknife

The Omega Special (5sf is better than 5A)

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8 hours ago, Bucknife said:

@theBitterFig, what about 3 Zetas with optics and two Passive Homing Omegas? 

Points seem a little light, unless you meant Optics Omegas and Passive/Homing Zetas...

But along these lines... Two Optics Zetas, Three Crack Shot/PS/Homing Omegas.  CS keeps them relevant for their primary weapons on the opening round, if that makes more sense.  PS Homing scares the stuffing out of Aces...

Alternately, 2 Optics Zetas, 2 CS/PS/HM Omegas, and Optics Backdraft.  BD's extra rear die felt really good to me.

Bah, that doesn't fit.  I had FCS instead of Passive in YASB without noticing...

CS/Optics Backdraft, Optics Zeta, 3x PS/Homing Zetas, or CS/Optics Backdraft, 2 Optics Omegas (no talent), 2 PS/Homing Zetas... I figure if you're mixing initiative anyhow, get Backdraft for the sweet extra die.

//

Or as a major ace-hunter:

3x Omega (Crack Shot, Passive Sensors, Homing Missiles) 129 = 3*43

Quickdraw (Fanatical, Fire Control System, Pattern Analyzer, Afterburners, Special Forces Gunner) 70

//

But I don't know... A large part of the threat of homing missiles is critical mass.  1 auto damage is a little worrying, but you can cope with it.  5 auto damage is game-ending.  Is 2 or 3 Homing Missiles enough?

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I've tried the homing variants and as I see it they have a major counter in beef lists. Any list with ships with 8 or more health just laughs at those poor Zetas. 
And even if an ace flies with beef support you get to kill that ace, but it gets really hard after that. 

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2 hours ago, Aiwarikiar said:

I've tried the homing variants and as I see it they have a major counter in beef lists. Any list with ships with 8 or more health just laughs at those poor Zetas. 
And even if an ace flies with beef support you get to kill that ace, but it gets really hard after that. 

And @theBitterFig, maybe the "ace hunting Passive Homing" piece needs to be a mid-range ace like Backdraft with a Shield Upgrade and Elusive to make him the "Joker" of the list that punishes the Aces if they ignore him. 

Or just one Zeta with homing to be the same kind of one-off annoyance. 

Tech the rest of the squad for meta balance and variance-dissipation. 

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Don't know if it's good, as in I haven't tried it much, but you can fit AO Kylo with 3 Passive Homing Zetas.

3 of them is usually enough to wreck an ace. Then Kylo just mops up the leftovers. 

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Have you guys considered Cluster Missiles instead of homing? It allows you to be more aggressive

 

Zeta Squadron Survivor (32)    
    Cluster Missiles (5)    
    Passive Sensors (3)    
    
Ship total: 40  Half Points: 20  Threshold: 3    
    
Zeta Squadron Survivor (32)    
    Cluster Missiles (5)    
    Passive Sensors (3)    
    
Ship total: 40  Half Points: 20  Threshold: 3    
    
Zeta Squadron Survivor (32)    
    Cluster Missiles (5)    
    Passive Sensors (3)    
    
Ship total: 40  Half Points: 20  Threshold: 3    
    
Zeta Squadron Survivor (32)    
    Cluster Missiles (5)    
    Passive Sensors (3)    
    
Ship total: 40  Half Points: 20  Threshold: 3    
    
Zeta Squadron Survivor (32)    
    Cluster Missiles (5)    
    Passive Sensors (3)    
    
Ship total: 40  Half Points: 20  Threshold: 3    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZsZ200Z259XWW98W240WY259XWW98W240WY259XWW98W240WY259XWW98W240WY259XWW98W240W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

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On 9/6/2019 at 2:05 PM, LeMightyASP said:

Have you guys considered Cluster Missiles instead of homing? It allows you to be more aggressive

Cluster is range 1-2. That's not a very good combo with passive sensors.

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I really like 5sf list.  Flew it a few times and it can be menacing with 10 arcs for your opponent to worry about.  Tho, there are times it can be difficult to push damage thru 3-agility aces.  But that is why we bring 5x SFs.

My question to you FO players:  What is your Turn 0 deployment strategy?  What formation have you found works best?

Thanks!  Fly true and May the Force be with You.

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21 hours ago, FastWalker said:

I really like 5sf list.  Flew it a few times and it can be menacing with 10 arcs for your opponent to worry about.  Tho, there are times it can be difficult to push damage thru 3-agility aces.  But that is why we bring 5x SFs.

My question to you FO players:  What is your Turn 0 deployment strategy?  What formation have you found works best?

Thanks!  Fly true and May the Force be with You.

I tend to deploy in "M"-shaped formation (i.e. two at the front edge of deployment range, three behind), but I'm open to hearing if anyone has a better setup.

I usually deploy with an eye to being able to rush forwards in formation without hitting a rock; I like to blast 5-forwards on turn 1 in a lot of matches. Depending on obstacles, that might mean having to deploy tucked in to one side. If so, I'll not deploy directly across from enemy ships if possible. That's because the board edge is a bad place for front+back arc ships to fight, so I only like to deploy at the side if I expect to be able to turn in to the centre before combat starts.

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21 hours ago, FastWalker said:

My question to you FO players:  What is your Turn 0 deployment strategy?  What formation have you found works best?

I've started fairly blocky (or a group of 2 and one of 3, with a rock between them), but loosen up as I fly, typically.  I like the premise of TIE/sf engaging in waves, ones in front blocking the first round, then moving past and the ones in back blocking, etc, but I don't want them too spread out.

If you've got an initiative edge, I don't even think it's too terrible to accept a joust head-on as a clump (particularly if you've got a Crack Shot variant).  It's not too hard for consistent 2-hit attacks to bring down something like an X-Wing, and they're really hard to block on the second round of an engagement due to the fly-past potential.

*I thought I'd sent this... guess I just typed it and closed the tab...*

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3 hours ago, Dasharr said:

I tend to deploy in "M"-shaped formation (i.e. two at the front edge of deployment range, three behind), but I'm open to hearing if anyone has a better setup.

I usually deploy with an eye to being able to rush forwards in formation without hitting a rock; I like to blast 5-forwards on turn 1 in a lot of matches. Depending on obstacles, that might mean having to deploy tucked in to one side. If so, I'll not deploy directly across from enemy ships if possible. That's because the board edge is a bad place for front+back arc ships to fight, so I only like to deploy at the side if I expect to be able to turn in to the centre before combat starts.

I do the "W" 3 up front and 2 behind inbetween the gaps. Like the "M" it spreads the bullseyes out for crackshots, and gives me 3 ships up front for first engagement.

X   X   X

  X    X

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@Dasharr @wurms, block M and W formation seems to be popular. I tend to favor the W formation. More guns upfront.

@theBitterFig, how does splitting your ships into 2 groups worked out? Are you able to converge all guns to a single target? 

I am trying to find a formation that can get at least 4 guns on a target no matter where you deploy. There are times where the block M or W formation finds itself with only 3 ships in range on first engagement due to range or Initiative-killed. Finding a formation that can get at least 4 ships on target would be helpful.

I did try a loose deployment where all 5 ships were equally spread out along my edge. Surprisingly, these TieSFs can really move. I managed to get all 5 within range of a single target -- Strato-Fortress. Eventually  I'll try this again.

Next, I will try theBitterFig's idea of deploying in 2 groups of 2 and 3.

If you discover new formations and/or deployments, please share. Thanks!

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@theBitterFig, When do you find yourself deploying in corners instead of the middle?  Deploying in 2 groups seems like a great way to deploy in the middle without worrying where obstacles are placed.  With how fast TieSFs are, you can control the board's center quite easily.

I'm also going to play with splitting the 5 TieSFs into 3 groups -- 2, 2, and 1.  Mostly likely have the 1 deployed in the center and the two pairs on either side.  Just not sure if having such a loose formation is better or worse.

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1 hour ago, FastWalker said:

@theBitterFig, When do you find yourself deploying in corners instead of the middle?  Deploying in 2 groups seems like a great way to deploy in the middle without worrying where obstacles are placed.  With how fast TieSFs are, you can control the board's center quite easily.

I'm also going to play with splitting the 5 TieSFs into 3 groups -- 2, 2, and 1.  Mostly likely have the 1 deployed in the center and the two pairs on either side.  Just not sure if having such a loose formation is better or worse.

That feels way to spread out to me.  These things have good straight-line speed, but significantly less so when turning.  I wouldn't spread out ships that much on ships without boost actions, since that's what's really needed to collapse from different sides in reasonable time.  Maybe if folks are all pointed toward the center of the board, so you can 5-straight towards the opposite edge, or hard turn and head up the side... hrm. Ok, maybe that'd work.

But really, "spread out" might be the wrong term.  I don't always tight-box, like TIEs, so maybe "loose formation" would be a better description.

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@theBitterFig, yeah the 5 straight really helps these TieSFs flank and close the gap. I really like it when your opponent expects you to slow roll and tries for bumping. Then you 5 straight and shoot them from thr rear.

I tried a wide approach where one is in the center and each pair is in opposing corners facing inward towards each other. Their speed allowed me to converge mostly consistent. This deployment helps if your entire list deploys first. But mostly isn't good enough for tourneys. So I'll work on your "loose" formations.

Thanks for your input, @theBitterFig.

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I tend to spread out in a single line inside the 2x2 obstacles on each side.

|                O                                                              O             |

|                          X         X       X         X         X                          |

 

Something like this, but it depends on the obstacles in the center, and this is usually just because I place forces first. People tend to get intimidated by wide formations.
Slowroll with the ones closest to their ships and 5 straigth with the ones on the far side.

Edited by Aiwarikiar

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Thank you all who contributed to this thread.  It helped a lot on deciding my final list, deployment, and formation.  Your advice helped so much that I won my first tournament against 36 players.  If you're interested in details, please feel free to PM me.  The list I flew is as follows:

“Backdraft” (39)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Omega Squadron Expert (34)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Omega Squadron Expert (34)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Omega Squadron Expert (34)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Omega Squadron Expert (34)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Things to note.  Crack Shot was used maybe 4 to 5 times over the course of 8 games.  Backdraft was great with that 3-dice attack out the rear arc.  Many times, BD helped stripped a token before the rest fired.

Funny enough.  During my test games, Fanatical hardly triggered because opponents focused on one ship at a time and one is usually nuked.  So, I went with Crack Shot & Backdraft.  During the tournament, there were dozens of times Fanatical would've triggered... sigh.

Fly True and May the Force be with You.

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10 hours ago, FastWalker said:

Things to note.  Crack Shot was used maybe 4 to 5 times over the course of 8 games.  Backdraft was great with that 3-dice attack out the rear arc.  Many times, BD helped stripped a token before the rest fired.

Funny enough.  During my test games, Fanatical hardly triggered because opponents focused on one ship at a time and one is usually nuked.  So, I went with Crack Shot & Backdraft.  During the tournament, there were dozens of times Fanatical would've triggered... sigh.

Fly True and May the Force be with You.

Congrats! 

Your test games were correct on fanatical. With different upgrades, people approach your list differently. Fanatical, opponents are aware that splitting fire is bad and having multiple fanaticals trigger is bad, so they are more focused on taking one down at a time and not strip all shields off others. And with adv optics cracks, they are more keen to just take the best shot and splitting dmg, which actually helps you cuz more ships equal more arcs.

As for crack, its an upgrade that works even when its not used. Opponents spend action to roll out of bullseye, and plan maneuvers to not be in bullseye.

I had ships land range 1 on my SFs, and instead of focusing up, they rolled out of bullseye. And if they had a link focus to red roll, now they are stressed, and my ship can 1 straight and shoot behind the next round. All thanks to a crackshot I never used.

What lists did you face? Did you find most of your games were close in points? I had many close games.

 

Edited by wurms

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On 9/8/2019 at 10:17 AM, Cartchan said:

Cluster is range 1-2. That's not a very good combo with passive sensors.

I wouldn't discount this. I've seen it do very well indeed.

You have the health to take R3 fire when locking, (because who would jump into R2 of it). Next turn you're taking a green token and have the Clusters primed. It answers the Homing vs Beef problem, if I'm not mistaken.

On later engages, I believe Passive allows you to lock, rotate and spray missiles everywhere, like a loose fire hose, which is potentially huge against just about anything. 4 charges is neat.

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23 hours ago, wurms said:

Congrats! 

Your test games were correct on fanatical. With different upgrades, people approach your list differently. Fanatical, opponents are aware that splitting fire is bad and having multiple fanaticals trigger is bad, so they are more focused on taking one down at a time and not strip all shields off others. And with adv optics cracks, they are more keen to just take the best shot and splitting dmg, which actually helps you cuz more ships equal more arcs.

As for crack, its an upgrade that works even when its not used. Opponents spend action to roll out of bullseye, and plan maneuvers to not be in bullseye.

I had ships land range 1 on my SFs, and instead of focusing up, they rolled out of bullseye. And if they had a link focus to red roll, now they are stressed, and my ship can 1 straight and shoot behind the next round. All thanks to a crackshot I never used.

What lists did you face? Did you find most of your games were close in points? I had many close games.

 

Thanks!

That's an excellent observation how opponents react differently against Fanatical and Crack Shot.  Makes sense.  Though, this only applies to Ace lists and not swarms.  Swarms don't care.  They'll wanna joust you and see where the dust settles.

Crack Shot did make my opponents BR away on a number of occasions.  Lucky for me, some BRs were done to avoid numerous firing arcs.

Gotta say, I love this list.  With 10x firing arcs, your ships have a lot of "time on target".  Your opponents will have a **** of a time avoiding getting shot at.  With so many TieSFs, its very easy to create kill boxes for multiple turns in a row.  Plus, as an awesome bonus, if your opponent has Outmaneuver equipped, it doesn't work against your mobile arc pointing towards the rear.

TieSFs are definitely beefy and having that Evade action when the ship is at half points can be a huge annoyance to your opponent.

Round 1) Rebel Beef (LOSS) - I didn't know how to approach this.  I knew I didn't want to joust this list.  So I split my ships and came on my opponent from 2 different directions.  Unfortunately, dice variance was terrible.  I killed Cassian and half on Ten Numb.  But I couldn't push 1 more damage on any ship to get more half points.  I lost all but 1 Omega ship.

Round 2) Grievous Swarm (WIN) - I too split my ships into 2 groups and came at the swarm of Vultures from 2 different directions while ignoring Grievous.  We engaged on turn 2.  He lost 2 vultures for halfing BD and an Omega.  Bad turn for me.  Then the next turns I managed to out fly my opponent.  Took out Grievous and another Vulture on turn 3 while suffering only minor damage.  Soon after, my opponent lost all of his ships.

Round 3) Resistance XXAPod (WIN by 2 points) - This time I flew in a tight formation and deployed my 4x Omega gun line (aka, "Death Blossom").  Helped a lot because Poe got halfed on the first engagement and was out of the fight until the last round.  My opponent flew well and I didn't have all guns on target consistently.  Again, it was a struggle to get half points against my opponent.  Tho I did manage to get enough half points to win while only losing 1 TieSF and some at half points.  Victory margin of 2 points.  Stupid me, last shot of the game, I was in rush to get lunch and fired at Poe.  After rolling the dice, I realized I should've shot at Finn instead for 1 more damage to get more MOV.

Round 4) Anakin+Ric+104th+Palp (WIN) - Deployed in my Death Blossom formation.  Typical ace list tried baiting me into bad positions.  All I did was slow roll and waited until his ships entered an idea kill box.  Killed Anakin and Palp at the end for only half on BD and an Omega.

Round 5) Darth+Echo+Sai (WIN) - Same as Round 4.  Death Bloosomed and went for Vader.  His list was stuck in a corner and I took advantage by killing all of his ships while losing BD and 2x Omegas.  I felt sorry because my opponent blanked out more than once with 3 agility dice.  Those blank outs sealed my victory.

Top 8 ) Tavson and Friends (WIN) - Did not like this match up because the two FO lists in the Top Cut were paired first.  I'd rather fight a fellow FO player later in the cut.  With my Death Blossom, I went straight for Krylo.  Unfortunately, he's a slippery sucker.  We danced some while he made Tavson a juicy target.  Against my better judgement after 3 dancing rounds, I dove for Tavson.  Reinforce is a pain, but 10 arcs works great at flanking.  By the time I had Tavson at 2 hull, QD and Krylo were on my list.  It was a tough slugfest and QD only managed to bonus attack twice.  All that remained of my opponent was a 1 hull Krylo, and I had 2x Omegas.

Top 4) Drea+3xKihraxz+Quadjumper (WIN) - No jousting here.  I deployed my list in 3 groups which confused my opponent at the beginning.  We end up dancing around the board edge for 45 minutes.  By the time he turn into the rocks towards me, I had my TieSFs back into a decent formation.  So I too turned into him and we had ourselves a good ol' joust.  I lost 1x Omega in the initial exchange for nearly killing Drea -- great exchange for me.  Next turn, I killed Drea (2 hull) and nearly killed a Kihraxz.  Once Drea was destroyed, we both knew the jig was up.  His Kihraxz couldn't outperform my TieSFs, especially since I was at a higher Initiative.  In the end, he lost Drea and 1x Kihraxz and I lost 2x Omegas.  Close game tho.  If variance was on his side, I would've lost.

Final) Classic Imperial Aces (WIN) - Again I Death Blossomed and slow rolled towards my opponent.  He was staying near a corner, dropped a prox mine and waited for me.  When he thought i was gonna slow roll again, I went 5-straight and narrowly missing the proximity mine.  I was able to create a kill box his ships couldn't completely escape.  Unfortunately, TieSFs have trouble hitting 3-agility ships.  Rest of the game was my opponent trying to get out of as many arc as he could while I tried to plink at him.  It was nice when Vader spent his Afterburners early in engagement, and I managed to kill Duchess in 2 turns.  But what caught me by surprise was the Grand Inquisitor boosted onto his own prox mine and giving me half points.  After he did that, I realized it was the better option.  It was either hit the prox mine or be in 4 or 5 shots at range 1 and 2.  In the end, I couldn't push any more damage but Vader sure did.  I killed Duchess and halfed GQ, while I lost BD.  This was an intense game.  My heart was pounding the entire time.  My opponent flew very well and I couldn't finish off GQ (1 hull).

Edited by FastWalker
Corrected what I lost on the Final Round.

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Made it to another tournament.  This time, I made it to the Top 8 cut and got some awesome prizes for it.

In swiss, I was undefeated and in 2nd overall until the last round.  That loss in the last round bumped me down to 4th overall in swiss.

After reviewing my notes and giving a battle report to a friend who couldn't make it, I confirmed that this list has a weakness against specific lists.  Specifically, Beef Lists with multiple 3-attack ships.

My 1 loss in swiss and loss in Top Cut were to beefy Resistance lists.  The problem I see with Beefy 3-attack ship lists is that if you both joust, then it becomes an attrition war with the TieSFs on the losing end.  Both of my losses were close in points.  If I flew a bit better, I believe I would've won both games.  Unfortunately, both opponents knew how to avoid most of my kill boxes and limit my ships from focus firing.

How do you approach beefy lists and guarantee a win?  Do you still joust in the initial engagement?  Or split?

Thanks for reading and sharing.  Remember to stay Fanatical!

On a funny side story, one opponent knew nothing about TieSFs.  After the first time he got 1 damage thru, the conversation went like this:

"So that Tie has shields down?"

"No, they have 3 shields and 3 hull"

"3 SHIELDS?!"

"Yes, and 2 agility"

"2 AGILITY?!"

"And they can shoot out the back"

"OMFG!"

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