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Maui.

Collision Detector + Gas Cloud

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Posted (edited)

A ship with Collision Detector lands its front corner on a gas cloud and uses Collision Detector so that it can perform an action. The ship is now ignoring the effects of the gas cloud.

While defending, said gas cloud obstructs the attack. It is will established that the defender gains a green die because the attack is still obstructed. The question: can the defender still change a blank result to an evade?

Seems to me the answer should be NOPE because the defender ignores the effects of the gas cloud, but obstructions are weird and all previous FFG rulings have followed the line of 'gain all the good and none of the bad' so I figured I'd ask and see what yall thought

Edited by Maui.

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So Collision Detector is defending? I'd say that they could.  Obstruction is taken to be an effect on the attacker, and the attacker isn't ignoring the Gas Cloud.

But the "ignore the effects" rulings from FFG have all seemed very wobbly to me.  They haven't really made a lot of sense, IMHO, when trying to argue from first principles.  But they all make sense by "you get the good stuff, you don't get the bad."  So I'd use that as a guide, as well.

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4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

So Collision Detector is defending? I'd say that they could.  Obstruction is taken to be an effect on the attacker, and the attacker isn't ignoring the Gas Cloud.

But the "ignore the effects" rulings from FFG have all seemed very wobbly to me.  They haven't really made a lot of sense, IMHO, when trying to argue from first principles.  But they all make sense by "you get the good stuff, you don't get the bad."  So I'd use that as a guide, as well.

That's just about where I am as well, only I can't get past this:

Quote

If at least one gas cloud obstructs an attack, the defender may change 1 blank result to an [evade] result.

It just seems to me that this has to be considered an effect of gas clouds. But as we've both mentioned the Ignore Obstacles rulings have tended to be pretty counter-intuitive, and that rule is listed under Obstructed and not under Obstacles, so it's possible that the blank-to-evade is not an effect of gas clouds at and I hate everything

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Collision_Detector.png

from RR page 14, Obstructed:
"• If at least one gas cloud obstructs an attack, the defender may change 1 blank result to an (evade) result."

so RAW, it's the defending ship that adds the evade result. how ever, the effect can be interpreted as not being an effect of the obstacle, but of the attack being obstructed by that obstacle. the attack is still obstructed, of course, since that is determined by the attacking ship and not the defender. so the question is if the effect of "the defender may change 1 blank result to an (evade) result." is an effect of the obstacle or of the attack being obstructed by the obstacle - and if there is an actual difference between the two.

i'm going to say yes. as i interpret it, the ship does ignore the effects of the obstacle (and so, while attacking, the attack would not be obstructed by that obstacle, since the determination of whether the attack is obstructed is an effect of the obstacle), but does not ignore the effects of that obstacles obstruction while other ships are attacking, so it may change one blank to an (evade) while defending an attack obstructed by that obstacle. O_o

that sort of hurts my brain a tiny bit. seems fair, though. thoughts?

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I agree with meffo.

Obscruction is decided from the point of view of the attacker.

If you ignore the obstacle, you don't get the obstruction if you are the attacker.
But once the obsctruction is declared (in the case your are the defender), you have no reason to ignore any effect of the obstuction.

That is the same thing that allow you to still roll 1 extra green dice.

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The attacking ship is always the one checking if the attack is obstructed. If the attack is through a gas cloud, the defender get the extra green die and the autothruster effect. But, while the ship on the gas cloud attack, because of collision detector he ignores the gas cloud and so his own attack isn't obstructed, so he wouldn't give the +1 green dice and evade granted by the gas cloud in return.

 

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19 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

So Collision Detector is defending? I'd say that they could.  Obstruction is taken to be an effect on the attacker, and the attacker isn't ignoring the Gas Cloud.

But the "ignore the effects" rulings from FFG have all seemed very wobbly to me.  They haven't really made a lot of sense, IMHO, when trying to argue from first principles.  But they all make sense by "you get the good stuff, you don't get the bad."  So I'd use that as a guide, as well.

This has been the guide so far - but this is the first time that there's been a good effect that is actually activated by the defender, so it may not be a correct interpretation.

 

If it was me ruling it, I'd say the defender in this instance gets the extra die, but not the autothrusters.

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44 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

This has been the guide so far - but this is the first time that there's been a good effect that is actually activated by the defender, so it may not be a correct interpretation.

 

If it was me ruling it, I'd say the defender in this instance gets the extra die, but not the autothrusters.

Check the rules, the wording for the extra green dice and for the cloud effect are the exact same.

If one apply, the other has to apply.

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  • If at least one asteroid, debris cloud, or gas cloud obstructs an attack, the defender rolls one additional defense die during the Roll Defense Dice step.
  • If at least one gas cloud obstructs an attack, the defender may change 1 blank result to an 󲁄 result.

These are separate effects, one which is not voluntary, and is an effect on the attacker, at least according to FFG's logic

The other is very clearly voluntary, and is an effect on the defender.

 

If I was ruling it from scratch I'd honestly not let the defend get the obstruction, either, but, you know, FFG.

 

If someone can take an effect voluntarily from something they're ignoring... can i choose not to ignore the debris when I'm moving if I want to be stressed?  Say, for instance, I'm running Ten Numb.  I want to AS roll onto the debris, then do a red move through it.  I don't want to get stressed by rolling onto the debris, because then I can't do my K turn - but I do want both stress tokens, because I want to modify both my attack and one of my defence rolls.

Can I ignore the debris the first time, but stop ignoring it the second time?

 

If not, why can I stop ignoring a gas cloud just because it benefits me?

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Here's one thing: there can be effects on a ship which benefit the opposing player.  For example, Greedo grants an attacker the ability to turn a hit to a crit.  It seems like we could treat Gas Clouds as one of those types of effects.  That sort of supports a Collision Detector ship defending being able to get the blank-to-evade turn.

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On 7/4/2019 at 11:08 AM, NerroSama said:

But once the obsctruction is declared (in the case your are the defender), you have no reason to ignore any effect of the obstuction.

After much opinion swinging, I also came to this conclusion.

I understand the reasoning behind the "No autothuster" position as : "This is an effect of the Gas Cloud so it must be ignored."

As others have stated before, the RRG makes it clear that the obstruction is decided from the attacker's PoV, so are its effects.

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On 7/4/2019 at 9:28 AM, thespaceinvader said:

I want to AS roll onto the debris, then do a red move through it

 

That's cute, but how're you getting Advanced Sensors and a Collision Detector on the same ship?

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