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BlastyMcBlasterFace

Reevaluating CLT

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I would really like to hear everyone's take on this in particular.  Are the points right?  When is it better to go to CLT over Delta 7B? 

Personally I'd love to fly Ric, ObiWan, an Arc and two Torrents - and I can, if I put CLT on ObiWan.

Anyone else tinkering with this sort of thing?  Initial thoughts? 

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4 minutes ago, BlastyMcBlasterFace said:

I would really like to hear everyone's take on this in particular.  Are the points right?  When is it better to go to CLT over Delta 7B? 

Personally I'd love to fly Ric, ObiWan, an Arc and two Torrents - and I can, if I put CLT on ObiWan.

Anyone else tinkering with this sort of thing?  Initial thoughts? 

For as cheap as it is now, it's a pretty good value on high-I ships that will have an easy time getting the bullseye and being focused already, and it's also nearly free on the low-I ships where' it's mostly just a nice-to-have when it randomly happens. I'll definitely be giving it a whirl.

Incidentally, it makes me wonder if Barris Offee could see some use for turning the bullseye on ships that couldn't focus? Maybe she'll actually be useful. 1 point over an I3 generic seems well worth it to me.

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1 minute ago, AngryAlbatross said:

If you can handle the ace flying I think CLT is better.  But if you can't dodge the arcs then go for Delta 7 for a little extra chunk.  

Personally I would always take CLT.  With boost its not that hard to line up the bullseye, but it does cost force!

If you're going for the bullseye anyways, do you think Predictive Shot is worth it?  Seems to me it is because you're rolling less dice.

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I have been testing and really enjoy it, the firepower feels ok, just have to be prepared to lose a ship randomly sometimes to a nasty crit (engine or structural for example).

There's now a reason to take it and 7B isn't always the correct choice, which I really like. Ric, Obi-Wan, and either cheap filler or Padme/another Jedi is solid. Still working out my favored combination but it's probably:

 

Ric: Outmaneuver, R2, Adv Sens

Obi: CLT, R5

Anakin: CLT, R5

(188)

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1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

1 point over an I3 generic seems well worth it to me.

If I had the spare point, I would absolutely use it to upgrade to her over a generic. In general though I've found I can usually find more than 1 extra point and thus can go for Mace, Lumi, etc...

Barriss in a 4xI4 list would be fun though!

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3 minutes ago, BlastyMcBlasterFace said:

do you think Predictive Shot is worth it?

Spending a force before you roll is tough to take, especially as a lot of times you end up with as many hits as their agility anyway (double mods being so frequent on Jedi) and don't end up reducing their dice (much more difficult to get bullseye on a ship that is getting range 3 bonus for example)

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I've been playing around with it some, just casual games.  I think it's fine, mostly.

Flew one game of Mace/Obi/Ani with CLT/R2 before the points switch, three with Plo/Obi/Ani with CLT/R2/Brilliant Evasion (didn't need a 16 point bid :P ) with the new points.

  • First game (old points) against a mostly wholesome version of Rebel Beef (Wedge/Jake/VTG Dutch/Cassian) I had a decent approach, and after Wedge went down, it wasn't too scary to fight against the rest.  Aethersprites are really nimble ships, Bullseyes aren't too hard, and Regen is sweet. Mace kind of got in the way, with the 4/5/6 init splits.
  • First new points game was against quad T-70.  I just guessed right on the open, went aggressvie, and got a good pincer.
  • Second new points game went bad quick.  Against Ketsu/Talonbane/Old T.  Anakin bumped his 2-Sloop on Plo's nubs, couldn't turn and barrel roll out of Ketsu's arc, and it was GG.
  • Third game went to final salvo vs Duchess/Soontir/Vader, trading half of Plo to half of Duchess.  Vader wasn't in a position to get a lock for a while, so the 3-green defenses of the Aethersprites worked well.  Non-bullseye attacks at range 2-3 are painfully weak, however.  Getting to R1 or Bullseye is pretty vital, and I likely would have killed Duchess on the last round if I'd dialed in a 4K instead of a 5K, giving me Range 1 and clearing Anakin's stress to take a Lock.

General Thoughts:

  • I don't think it's too hard to get decent-enough shots a lot of the time.
  • Locks are sweet.  Even rerolling the Focus doesn't seem too bad, since conserving Force is a somewhat valid goal.
  • Brilliant Evasion wasn't useless, but not super important.  I could see just running a bigger bid and protecting more points, but no other talents seem super important.
  • R2 seems really nice here.  You get the full 3-green-dice effect for the price, rather than 7B's only getting the 2-dice value out of the 3-dice cost.
  • Plo seemed surprisingly good.  Two memorable moments: One was Plo used R2, blocked Vader, and took Anakin's Disarm token from that R2 away.  In the other, Plo gave a focus to a blocked Anakin against T-70s.
  • You kind of have to be good at rolling Green Dice.  I never had any epic blank outs, but those can happen.  At very least, you'll need the iron ovaries to keep your wits when you do blank out.

//

As to when to use CLT over 7B?  I could almost see it nearly any time I'm putting Anakin on the table, unless going for a 2-ship SNR Anakin list, in which case 7B (and probably CLT Plo as support).  Saving 15 points vs 7B is just so dang many points.  That's a lot you can invest into the rest of your list.  For lower init ships, I could go either way.  Plo seems like an amazing support piece for any list with R2 Astromech in it.  Just a great way to spend 54 points.

 

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1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's bad and not worth taking or using.

I'm sure it can be made worthwhile but honestly it's not worth spending points on, especially if it predisposes you to spending more force than you should, or spending your focus offensively so you don't have it for defence.

I lean more towards this POV. Desperate to get firepower I tend to overextend to try and nail the bullseye, and pay for it. CLT Init 5 Obi or Plo get killed fast by Init 6 like Vader or Wedge, have to really watch out for bad match ups.

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CLT has definitely improved with a price cut and 7B's increase, but it still suffers from encouraging poor ace play. Generally ace's should be taking shots out the edge of their arc so they have safe abort lines. 

I think 7B is still the better choice on you higher PS aces, but CLT now definitely has some promise on lower PS Jedi, especially with a Sense carrier to setup blocks.

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23 minutes ago, BlastyMcBlasterFace said:

If you're going for the bullseye anyways, do you think Predictive Shot is worth it?  Seems to me it is because you're rolling less dice.

Not really.  Playing around with the dice calc shows that Predictive Shot is almost always bad.  Only time it might actually accomplish anything is against enemies rolling 4 or 5 dice, and it's pretty hard to get too many bullseye shots where an opponent rolls that many dice.

Also, Predictive Shot makes you spend the force before you know whether or not you need it.  If you could activate Predictive Shot when you've seen that you've only rolled a single Hit, then it'd probably be useful, and help greatly on near blank-out attacks.  But you've got to spend it without having any sense of it's value.

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23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Third game went to final salvo vs Duchess/Soontir/Vader

Did you move last in this game? I'm always concerned about fragile acey ships moving before the likes of these Imperial peeps

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17 minutes ago, FriendofYoda said:

Did you move last in this game? I'm always concerned about fragile acey ships moving before the likes of these Imperial peeps

Yep, but Plo and Obi still moved before Vader and Soontir.  A lot probably came down to the respective approaches each of us made.  Small sample size, anyhow.

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45 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Yep, but Plo and Obi still moved before Vader and Soontir.  A lot probably came down to the respective approaches each of us made.  Small sample size, anyhow.

Absolutely, if Ani had moved before them also do you think it would have been winnable? Seems like with triple fragile aces we'll need to chase that bid down (not that I haven't been doing that anyway :P)

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Posted (edited)

Bit of a double edged sword here, but CLT might be the config of choice if you're just bringing a Jedi for their ability

Double edged sword here because Lumy is "only" i4 and CLT has to use forcus if you're not using focus...but hey that's the only way to get her in with juke spam

N1pe

(42) Ric Olié [Naboo Royal N-1 Starfighter]
(7) Juke
Points: 49

(45) Padmé Amidala [Naboo Royal N-1 Starfighter]
(7) Juke
Points: 52

(41) Anakin Skywalker [Naboo Royal N-1 Starfighter]
(7) Juke
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 50

(43) Luminara Unduli [Delta-7 Aethersprite]
(3) Calibrated Laser Targeting
Points: 46

Total points: 197

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Jedi Knight (38)
Battle Meditation (6)
R4-P Astromech (4)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (2)

Jedi Knight (38)
Battle Meditation (6)
R4-P Astromech (4)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (2)

Jedi Knight (38)
Battle Meditation (6)
R4-P Astromech (4)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (2)

Jedi Knight (38)
Battle Meditation (6)
R4-P Astromech (4)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (2)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Hit and run, full squad double modding, double repo, or rep + single mod as needed... use CLT like HLC. :)

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Posted (edited)

Man, ffg did a good job making the generic n1 initiative 2 only

Because battle meditation on passive sensors? OH BOY!

(since they're i2 and you can't coordinate while passive sensors are active and you can't coordinate the passive sensor action, i3 knights can't coordinate passive n1s)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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It seems like it should treated like a 4-point predator-esque talent on a Jedi which you’re not gunna 7B and you have 4 points lying around. 

Huh. Typing that out makes it seem like if you have those 4 points, the list probably needs to be reexamined. 

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Posted (edited)

Played a few variations of Obi/Mace/Sae/Lum all CLT. The potential is amazing but the dice swing is rough, feels really bad when a ship pops the 2nd time it defends.

Gonna try Padme when street date hits and see if she helps.

 

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Jedi Knight (38)
Battle Meditation (6)
R4-P Astromech (4)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (2)

[...]

Hmm...

If the main goal is just to upgrade everybody to Foc/TL from Foc/Frc, not a fan, since the relative power gain is basically that of a 2die ship, at a significant point and opportunity cost. Would rather have the extra force and abilities of the named Jedi

but .... the ability for (almost) everyone to premove repo is pretty interesting.

What about R5 instead of R4-P? Regen (potentially back up past half points) and still focus/shoot.

Edited by prauxim

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Hmm...


If the main goal is just to upgrade everybody to Foc/TL from Foc/Frc, not a fan, since the relative power gain is basically that of a 2die ship, at a significant point and opportunity cost. Would rather have the extra force and abilities of the named Jedi

but .... the ability for (almost) everyone to premove repo is pretty interesting.

What about R5 instead of R4-P? Regen (potentially back up past half points) and still focus/shoot.

R4-P is to help the squad get back into the fight after a turnaround (S-Loop or Kturn) since it can change any of the plethora of white maneuvers that the Delta 7 has available into a blue dumping the stress afterwards using the hard turns, 3 banks or fast (4 or 5) straights. The generic R5's ability is an action so at best you could have 2  of them regen and the other 2 coordinate the focus (using your example), it is still an option though. CLT really comes in to effect against larger bases where it can effectively turn that 2 red die into 3 allot easier (much like HLC loves to munch on them in my experience) with full normal mods using Battle Meditation. Against smaller ships double repo (via Battle Med) or repo into focus (either through Battle Med or through normal ship ability + action) and not worrying too much about getting lock + focus might be an idea, though it is still full double mods on an attack if you do the full coordinate chain. 2 dice or not, that can add up quickly.

Edited by Hiemfire

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2 hours ago, gennataos said:

It seems like it should treated like a 4-point predator-esque talent on a Jedi which you’re not gunna 7B and you have 4 points lying around. 

Huh. Typing that out makes it seem like if you have those 4 points, the list probably needs to be reexamined. 

It would be if it were anything like predator

The only actual similarity is the bullseye requirement. Straight up adding a focus is FAR more impactful than a single reroll, as it lands you a guaranteed result (albeit only relevant with a focus token but still) and, far more importantly, an added result

So basically, it turns your Jedi into something more than laughably overpriced Awings.

I'd always go for Delta B, but I'd sooner CLT than nothing. Only people I'd bother with there, though, would maybe be Obi. I 5, 3 force; potentially relevant ability (esp with agility 2 naboos)

 

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CLT was useful before on lower I ships, and is completely playable now. I use it in 4 ship minimum lists. And the CLT Jedi is not your puncher. Best on a support ship type or secondary fighter, and don’t force it. I find that I can reliably get 3+ CLT shots a game with any Jedi, without sacrificing positioning.

Basically don’t use it on your primary threat, have enough ships to make dodging the bullseye a choice between bad options. I like it. I liked it before, but now find it usable on all Jedi, instead of just the I3/4 ones.

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