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Kieransi

why don't you play TIE swarms?

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I have great difficulty keeping 4 ships in formation , let alone 8. As soon as it gets to the contact stage of the game it’s every man for himself, but help the team best you can. It’s why I prefer the ace genre and Scum at that too. 

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6 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

For that matter, you can do worse than a Reaper to put her on. The Reaper is a touch more fragile but bloody nippy for a crew carrier, and Captain Feroph is incredibly hard to put down.

It's the potential for a Range 3 engagement with missiles (where the vultures get a third defence die) which makes the difference, I think. 

The separatists do have tactical relays, but those are still a bit limited in potential - even Kraken isn't that amazing since on the initial engagement he basically boils down to "these three vultures also have target locks....maybe".

By comparison, even when just looking at ways to buff the swarm, Galactic Empire has Sloane, or Howlrunner, or Ruthless, or the various "+1 attack die" pilots, each of which has its own advantages, and, in extreme cases, can generally be stacked on top of one another.

Well, sure, the potential is there for that R3 shell shot - but let's be honest: you're not going to get that R3 dream against a competent opponent who knows the Rule of 11.

I'm pretty sure that 3 is a the magic number on turn 1 for the imperial player here. Dial 3 ahead towards the Separatist swarm, they can't make R3 even with a full 5 dialed in. (We'd be at 10 of 11 total movement). On turn 2, imps dial in a 5. Now we're either at R1, R2 or R0; if you made a mistake, you don't get to use your missiles at all. If you didn't make a mistake, you get an R2 alpha that is (slightly) more impressive than my alpha but at lower initiative and with less points efficiency. Equal ships are likely to be exchanged, which puts the Imp player ahead even after Howlrunner is sniped out.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

If I recall the math correctly, Lambda shuttles actually have more effective health than a Decimator due to the shield to hull ratio. So you're probably better off with Sloane riding a shuttle, unless you really need the Decimator as an upgrade platform.

Good points, and it's definitely made me reconsider the Lambda.  The reason I'm going for a Decimator in this case is the third crew slot, which lets me take Death Troopers as well, to try and force that stress to stick around for a little bit longer.

Patrol Leader (68)
Admiral Sloane (9)
Death Troopers (6)
Hull Upgrade (2)

5x Academy Pilot (23)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Edited by Jarval

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I much prefer flying Imperial Aces or other Imperial archetypes in general.

Now, TIE/fo? That's a ship that deserves attention. 31pts for a Fanatical PS3 is an absolute bargain. The second you lose the shield, you can become incredibly aggressive, flinging that fighter around using the sloops and K-turns, safe in the knowledge that you'll have reasonable odds of getting two hits on any attacks you launch. It also makes the other actions available to you much more palatable to take, as you will *always* have a mod on your attack.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

I'm pretty sure that 3 is a the magic number on turn 1 for the imperial player here. Dial 3 ahead towards the Separatist swarm, they can't make R3 even with a full 5 dialed in. (We'd be at 10 of 11 total movement). On turn 2, imps dial in a 5. Now we're either at R1, R2 or R0; if you made a mistake, you don't get to use your missiles at all. If you didn't make a mistake, you get an R2 alpha that is (slightly) more impressive than my alpha but at lower initiative and with less points efficiency. Equal ships are likely to be exchanged, which puts the Imp player ahead even after Howlrunner is sniped out.

True but assumes a head-on pass square to the board edge with the two swarms setting up opposite one another. Judging range becomes a lot more of an art form if the move-to-contact is at an angle across the board, which is more likely precisely because almost no-one, given a choice, sets up for a head-on pass against a TIE swarm lead by Howlrunner.

11 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

Now, TIE/fo? That's a ship that deserves attention. 31pts for a Fanatical PS3 is an absolute bargain. The second you lose the shield, you can become incredibly aggressive, flinging that fighter around using the sloops and K-turns, safe in the knowledge that you'll have reasonable odds of getting two hits on any attacks you launch. It also makes the other actions available to you much more palatable to take, as you will *always* have a mod on your attack.

Part of me wonders about pairing Fanatical Omega Aces with Electronic Baffle. Self Damage is a pain in the fundament, but sacrificing your shield to remove stress (allowing you to do a segnor again the following turn or to do a white move and still get an action), and to enable fanatical to boot is a surprisingly tempting option. You wouldn't rush to do it with everyone, but it's a nice interaction between two very cheap upgrades.

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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1 hour ago, Archangelspiv said:

I have great difficulty keeping 4 ships in formation , let alone 8. As soon as it gets to the contact stage of the game it’s every man for himself, but help the team best you can. It’s why I prefer the ace genre and Scum at that too. 

The bolded is exactly why it is so mentally exhausting to play TIE swarms over and over:

If you could decapitate most lists in a single pass, then it wouldn't be too bad.

But you can't. Maybe 50%~ or so of the time, you'll see fat bases on the table that require a second pass to kill. So you set up the first pass, and because you were up against a good player you probably hit them at R2 instead of R1, and now you need a second crack at them. But how???

You disengage at top speed, of course (while NOT making the error of doing an immediate 5k, which just happens sometimes after you're in full zombie mode), and then you must accurately count your spacing from your opponent (while never forgetting to add the extra movement from their base) in order to avoid a collision or an R3 fight when you come back at them.

The math isn't hard, but you have to do it over and over again with no margin for error. Forget to add base length one time? You R0 yourself at the wrong time, ships get mis-aligned / killed, and your 2nd pass fails and the game is likely lost.

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Part of me wonders about pairing Fanatical Omega Aces with Electronic Baffle. Self Damage is a pain in the fundament, but sacrificing your shield to remove stress (allowing you to do a segnor again the following turn or to do a white move and still get an action), and to enable fanatical to boot is a surprisingly tempting option. You wouldn't rush to do it with everyone, but it's a nice interaction between two very cheap upgrades.

 

That is an interesting idea. It certainly helps resolve the riddle of getting multiple Fanatical pilots to get the benefit (I played a game last night where only one of my four ever lost their shield due to my opponent focusing on Blackout when possible and poor dicerolls otherwise), but it increases the points footprint in a way I'm not terribly comfortable with. It may only be two points, but that eats into the budget for things other than more TIE/fo (TIE/sf, for instance).

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Posted (edited)

I've never understood people saying TIE swarms are mentally draining. I've flown regionals with them or at least mini swarms (echo pre nerf and 5 ties) . By the end of the day it still feels the same as if I had flown 3 ships.

 

If someone sees you are playing a swarm and sets up across from you and doesn't have trajectory protons, I can tell you they are new to the game. No "rule of 11" will save you. If you aren't making the swarm player go through asteroids you are wrong.

 

I played TIE swarms for a good year and a half if not more, now I'm trying other things. A local player has been enjoying them and his dice roll extremely hot so it makes that list incredibly evil. Now I'm trying to make CIS swarms work, and frankly, they do. The kill boxes vultures can set up with grappling struts is amazing.

 

In the end, the biggest thing against swarms is variance. 3 health and 3 agility, even with iden, can disappear real fast or stay around forever.

Edited by Hujoe Bigs

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, NakedDex said:

Man, what is with the horrific terminology creeping in lately? First "AIDS" and "disease", now "cancer"? Some of you folks need to tone the **** down that rhetoric, or take a walk back to League at least.

I’m not by any stretch of the imagination defending the rhetoric, but “cancer” at least has been a term thrown around in X-Wing since...well...the first time I remember it was when the YT-2400 was released, so 1.0 Wave...was that 5?  It’s also relatively (and distressingly) common with other wargames.

That being said, I mostly agree with you.  Terms like that are patently absurd (and ridiculously offensive) to apply to a **** game.

Also, though, in my experience the kind of people who use that language (and folks in the interwebs in general) don’t respond well to rhetoric in response.  Something like “Dude.  Not cool.” works better most of the time (except that one guy back in the day casually dropping ethnic slurs, but you generally don’t expect ANY approach to work with people like that).

Not trying to be a **** in any way, just saying that toning it down across the board might be a good thing for the community.

Edited by FatherTurin

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Darth Seridur said:

@Kieransi why do so many of the top players ask "Why does nobody fly Tie Swarms?" yet none of them do it themselves.

Rather fascinating to understand why they all are certain the list is so strong but also universally don't want to fly it. A good number had no problem flying Rebel beef. So can't be the perceived "dullness" of the list.

Tons of players run Tie-Swarm. Its been the 2nd best performing list in Hyperspace over a long period of time. Thanks Iden. 

Its more difficult to play than Beef, but due to Gas Clouds its not actually that hard to use. 

9aqW8Bk.png

Outside of how inelegant Iden works mechanically it can actually be genuinely interesting to play against to.

Both players just have to buckle up for a 75 min game ending at time. 

I also think as far as its perception when players see it across the table from them they typically get a "sinking" feeling even if its similar to a # of other lists/archetypes.

"I have to destroy all that? If I go in front of it I might lose? Thats not what I signed up for. I dont actually want to play X-Wing for 75 Minutes"

Edited by Boom Owl

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I agree with the physical/mental exhaustion part, although I've never flown them regularly and I have flown Strikers and even a bit of CIS with a higher number of ships and it's never bothered me.  For some reason, when I tried a Tie swarm a few times it seemed to take forever to move the swarm and just felt tedious.  I'm sure this goes away with experience, but it's a reason you can't jump right into this list.

I think it's a pain to move that many ships in formation for long periods of time, especially over multiple matches where you might tend to bump/shift ships just enough out of formation to mess everything up as the day goes on when you can least afford it.

It's also kind of boring.  It's not an NPE list, but it doesn't bring anything new and exciting to the table and most people want to fly something that seems cutting edge or like they've found a clever list building trick.  If it was top of the meta, I'm sure you'd see it more (and it does show up in Hyperspace), but unless it's top of the meta, I think most players will opt for a lower-count list and/or something that holds more interest to them.

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Funny that you would ask this.

I picked up 7 TIE Figthers, (Howlrunner, Versio, & 5 Obsidian Pilots) in an attempt to work out my coordinated maneuver for lots of ships.

This team also forced me to try to set up deflection attacks (attacking from the sides) and I've enjoyed mixed success (with two flights so far).

I've just begun working with this team but here's what I found.

The TIE fighters are spending actions on Barrel Rolls to arc dodge.  So (mostly) unmodded attacks with two dice . . .   But Howlrunner helps offset that a bit.

The three agility is nice on defense, but against most opponents it sucks when you roll three blanks for evade when you're trying to shake off three hits . . .  :(   Anecdotally during the last bout, I was feeling 'okay' with TIE's that were facing a hit and crit, but both of the fighters flipped direct hit on the crits.  <_<.

But in short, TIE ln's are fragile and don't pack much of a punch.  You really need to put a bunch on the board to make them viable.  

I HAVE discovered that they make great pop up targets for new X-Wing players.  I was introducing a friend to X-Wing 2.0, had him put together a single custom small base ship and I put a comparable value of Academy TIE's on the board.  He chewed through them all in short order.

 

Not surprisingly I'm 0 - 2 on my win/loss ratio with this team, but I find the experience worthwhile and I've had fun flying this team.

I don't think this is a viable team and I doubt it could put up a credible effort at an actual tournament.  But maybe?  I would like to be able to put another Obsidian Pilot (or I'd like to see if I could have 6 Academy pilots: there's not much difference between PS 1 & PS 2) so that I could see if an additional TIE Fighter could make a difference.

Yeah, 7 TIE's on the table "looks" impressive, but they are a very weak ship.

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1 hour ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I've never understood people saying TIE swarms are mentally draining. I've flown regionals with them or at least mini swarms (echo pre nerf and 5 ties) . By the end of the day it still feels the same as if I had flown 3 ships.

 

If someone sees you are playing a swarm and sets up across from you and doesn't have trajectory protons, I can tell you they are new to the game. No "rule of 11" will save you. If you aren't making the swarm player go through asteroids you are wrong.

 

I played TIE swarms for a good year and a half if not more, now I'm trying other things. A local player has been enjoying them and his dice roll extremely hot so it makes that list incredibly evil. Now I'm trying to make CIS swarms work, and frankly, they do. The kill boxes vultures can set up with grappling struts is amazing.

 

In the end, the biggest thing against swarms is variance. 3 health and 3 agility, even with iden, can disappear real fast or stay around forever.

While the bolded is 100% true, it comes with a caveat; you have to set-up the terrain intelligently and know how to fly into it, or you're almost better off just trying your luck with skirting the perimeter of the board.

May a woe has been had from players who grokked the basic principle of forcing a swarm into an asteroid field, only to find themselves having landed on rocks while staring down R1 TIE fighter attacks.

Rule of 11 definitely still applies here, as it is what a good player will use to know when to cut around rocks vs when to hide behind them.

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50 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Tons of players run Tie-Swarm. Its been the 2nd best performing list in Hyperspace over a long period of time. Thanks Iden. 

Its more difficult to play than Beef, but due to Gas Clouds its not actually that hard to use. 

9aqW8Bk.png

Outside of how inelegant Iden works mechanically it can actually be genuinely interesting to play against to.

Both players just have to buckle up for a 75 min game ending at time. 

I also think as far as its perception when players see it across the table from them they typically get a "sinking" feeling even if its similar to a # of other lists/archetypes.

"I have to destroy all that? If I go in front of it I might lose? Thats not what I signed up for. I dont actually want to play X-Wing for 75 Minutes"

So i agree with all your thoughts. And excellently worded, btw.

The Q i am asking is why do all these top players keep saying to play TIE swarm, but dont do it themselves. We know what they play from List Juggler. So kinda fascinating that they dont back up their own assertions.

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2 hours ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

But you can't. Maybe 50%~ or so of the time, you'll see fat bases on the table that require a second pass to kill. So you set up the first pass, and because you were up against a good player you probably hit them at R2 instead of R1, and now you need a second crack at them. But how???

You disengage at top speed, of course (while NOT making the error of doing an immediate 5k, which just happens sometimes after you're in full zombie mode), and then you must accurately count your spacing from your opponent (while never forgetting to add the extra movement from their base) in order to avoid a collision or an R3 fight when you come back at them.

The math isn't hard, but you have to do it over and over again with no margin for error. Forget to add base length one time? You R0 yourself at the wrong time, ships get mis-aligned / killed, and your 2nd pass fails and the game is likely lost.

I think that's why I like the TIE/fo with Pattern Analyser so much. Being able to go from a 'basic' head-on attack not a million miles from a generic TIE fighter into one of a choice of three red moves (so you'll almost always have one available) without losing actions is pretty huge.

I have a tendancy not to disengage properly. One thing I should maybe practice with my strikers is using one afterburner charge for the initial 'pounce' and one for the 'disengage' (bank 1/bank 3/bank 1/evade should get me free and clear from most opponents facing the other way).

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Had a good run with a sloane reaper paired with a howl/iden swarm (those two plus 3 academies) but since I run primarily hyperspace and sloane's not legal....CIS swarms for me instead :) 

But while I do think that it's a strong list against just about everything, it has a high-skill floor so it takes a whole bunch of reps for new players to get used to it and players who only ever fly 2-3 ships will struggle to get it to do the same of thing. With practice you get down a good rhythm and you only burn your brain when you're in the scrum, but with practice your approach is fairly straight-forward and asks a really tough question of your opponent - can you handle 6-7 double-modded shots and not die?

If the answer is no, you better not land in front of my swarm.

Of course it's also frustrating when you blank out twice on howlrunner's defense dice or re-roll blanks into blanks but welcome to X-wing. I'd rather have 6 attempts with my list than 1-2 attempts with a ace ship. Missing a 2-dice attack is annoying - missing a proton torp shot can actually lose the game for you :D 

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20 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

While the bolded is 100% true, it comes with a caveat; you have to set-up the terrain intelligently and know how to fly into it, or you're almost better off just trying your luck with skirting the perimeter of the board.

May a woe has been had from players who grokked the basic principle of forcing a swarm into an asteroid field, only to find themselves having landed on rocks while staring down R1 TIE fighter attacks.

Rule of 11 definitely still applies here, as it is what a good player will use to know when to cut around rocks vs when to hide behind them.

Round 0 is the most important round against a swarm. You should have an idea of where you want to engage. Rule of 11 really isn't used here, unless you realllllly wanna joust that swarm. You have the ability to measure out ranges and know exactly the distance for each rock. This should provide you with enough knowledge to weave in between rocks and definitely not end up on one. If you are ending up on rocks in an engagement zone, I can't help that. 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

The Q i am asking is why do all these top players keep saying to play TIE swarm, but dont do it themselves. We know what they play from List Juggler. So kinda fascinating that they dont back up their own assertions.

Not really that complicated.

Its extremely good in hyperspace but not as fun to play as other options. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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Posted (edited)

None of the poll answers fit me. For me it's a combination of 3 things:

1 - I don't enjoy making massed weak attacks, half of them wasted on clean misses, to get a bit of damage through.

2 - Hard counters for swarms are hard. Luke, Norra, Boba - attacks just bounce off unless you're lucky (vs Luke) or get advantageous positioning despite lower initiative (vs Norra or Boba). Trajectory-simmed proton bombs - there's almost no way that ends well.

3 - there's so much table-cruft with all those extra tokens and dials, and when games go to time (which they usually do with a swarm) you're left scrambling to get your stuff together to get to the next table.

Edit - OK make that 4 reasons, I just remembered another - close formation flying needs you to be very precise when executing moves. I'm one of the players whose formation starts nice and neat and ends up drifting out of sync 3-4 turns in.

Edited by Dasharr

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7 hours ago, Darth Seridur said:

@Kieransi why do so many of the top players ask "Why does nobody fly Tie Swarms?" yet none of them do it themselves.

Rather fascinating to understand why they all are certain the list is so strong but also universally don't want to fly it. A good number had no problem flying Rebel beef. So can't be the perceived "dullness" of the list.

Not really sure I count as a top player, but thanks :). I didn't fly actually fly either. For me it's mostly that I've been busy flying other stuff and due to the kind of lists I've been flying, my games against howlswarms and beef were just straight up jousts where dice variance determined the winner. Seemed sort of boring to me, so I didn't really give those lists a second look and ended up switching to ace lists when I realized my generic swarms couldn't outjoust these two. Wanted to ask here because I know some players who do enjoy TIE swarm so I was wondering if other people find the TIE swarm boring, or what was going on with that, because like you said, people seemed much more comfortable jumping on the beef train than jumping on the TIE swarm train. 

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@NakedDex sorry, I forgot that earlier this week the word "AIDS" got used on these boards, which is the first time I can remember that happening. @FatherTurin is correct, the word has a long-standing historical use on these boards so I was using it in the poll because I figured that was the vernacular. Probably should have said "disgustingly overpowered" or something instead. 

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