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Hugeman

Fix the JM5K Dumpster Fire

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What if the punishing one upgrade read as follows;

Gain a  "front arc" primary weapon with a value of “3”   instead of    While you perform a primary attack, if the defender is in your "front arc" , roll 1 additional attack die

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17 minutes ago, Hugeman said:

What if the punishing one upgrade read as follows;

Gain a  "front arc" primary weapon with a value of “3”   instead of    While you perform a primary attack, if the defender is in your "front arc" , roll 1 additional attack die

If it replaced the turret arc sure.

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5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

If it replaced the turret arc sure.

Why should it replace the turret arc?

The turret would just be a 2 attack dice arc in addition to the front primary.

Opposing ships could choose to avoid the front arc knowing that the turret arc is less powerful but can still deal damage.

Perhaps the punishing one upgrade would need to go up in price a bit though (remember it is a unique upgrade so only one of them allowed).

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Just now, RStan said:

Not sure how much fixing they really have to do...have you tried Dengar w/ Punishing One & R5P8 since the points update? Seems like a solid i6 that can shoot twice for 68 pts. 

Yes have tried Dengar (the only slightly viable one - that is a problem in itself) with several different wingmates and combos.

The dial and action bar is "GARBAGE" even with the cheaper contraband it is really hard to get it to pull its weight.

Good luck getting consistent front arc shots let alone getting an opposing ship in the front arc and getting it shoot at Dengar whether there are other viable targets or not.

My suggested change would also at least make fearless or outmaneuver an option instead of the current mediocre list of available talents.

And no I didn't ever play the Dengaroo combo so I am not pining for the past - didn't take up xwing until well after that era was done with.

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im hopeful FFG will roll out a patch for the jump5K soon. its dial is so bad only dengar is really worth playing and even then hes borderline playable. because the ship got nerfed so hard out of the gates its actually hard to fix this thing wout using errata for the ship card/upgrades that will bring the dial back from the dead.

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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I agree regarding the dial. I have tried Dengar several times, and if/when you need to turn around, you cant really shake most ships while doing so. Ending up taking a ton of damage because of the stress from the dial. 

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 A friend of mine is using Dengar with the title, Fearless, R5-P8, contraband cybernetics and Greedo gunner. He enjoyed it and has had some success with it so far (last week :P).

Scout - plasma torps, agile gunner, contraband, and munitions failsafe is 65pts. It fits to a triple jump list, and contra and agile gunner alleviate some of the dials drawbacks.

If you were to run Tel or Manaroo as a single non Dengar Jm5K I'd maybe throw L3-37 crew on as well.

 

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6 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

im hopeful FFG will roll out a patch for the jump5K soon. its dial is so bad only dengar is really worth playing and even then hes borderline playable. because the ship got nerfed so hard out of the gates its actually hard to fix this thing wout using errata for the ship card/upgrades that will bring the dial back from the dead.

If they do, I suspect it  won't be until the ship gets re-released in wave 5 or launch card packs. Same for the M3 in all likelihood.

I realize that's a bit cynical, but if I were making that decision from a business standpoint, I'd wait on a big fix until I can use it to push units.

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8 hours ago, Hugeman said:

Yes have tried Dengar (the only slightly viable one - that is a problem in itself) with several different wingmates and combos.

 The dial and action bar is "GARBAGE" even with the cheaper contraband it is really hard to get it to pull its weight.

 Good luck getting consistent front arc shots let alone getting an opposing ship in the front arc and getting it shoot at Dengar whether there are other viable targets or not.

Im not sure what the expectation is for a 68 pt i6 3 attack dice 2 agility high hp ship with a passive mod that can attack twice in a turn.
Dengar is cheap enough now that he fills a similar role to Tavson (68 pts vs 64 pts).
If Players can consistently get value from an Upsilon then Dengar should be no problem, especially with Contraband.

Edited by Boom Owl

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I've had mixed results with Dengar recently. Usually something like this:

Dengar (56)    
    Expert Handling (6)    
    Hotshot Gunner (7)    
    Contraband Cybernetics (3)    
    Punishing One (8)    
    R5-P8 (4)    
Ship total: 84  Half Points: 42  Threshold: 5

Hotshot to help strip tokens before the enemy returns fire, making the counter shot better, Expert Handling helps the generally poor maneuverability. R5 helps with not having the action to target lock. It's pricey and, tbh, not totally worth it. It has won more than lost, but it usually comes down to a clutch final joust, only having 1-2 hull left. The JM5k just melts so fast and doesn't reliably put out the kind of damage you can otherwise get for those points. I tried with Solo Gunner, but with out Perceptive Copilot (who I just realized we could call PCP and I don't know why we don't 😎) its not worth it on a dial that cant both manage stress and turn right. 

As for fixes, being able to equip R4 would help immensely, but keep in mind that it would then have 10 BLUE MANEUVERS!!!! so I somehow dont think that will happen (interesting to note that the Dengar quick build has it). Maybe an astromech that does something similar, but only makes them white or otherwise mitigates the stress gain. 1.0 Targeting astromech, or flight assist astro might be useful. Give the base ship a second crew slot so you have one and an astro instead of no crew. If they did that, maybe increase the price a little. According to the Legends article on Wookiepedia the P1 had an ion cannon, so maybe add a cannon slot with the upgrade, not sure how much that would help the ship though.

Too late for this one probably, unless people are willing to buy a new model for the cardboard, but making it medium would help. I personalty would buy one, but I'm dedicated to the faction and love my toilet seat. That would be super pushing the envelope on what qualifies as "medium" though.

Edited by Seraphimtoaster375

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10 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Im not sure what the expectation is for a 68 pt i6 3 attack dice 2 agility high hp ship with a passive mod that can attack twice in a turn.
Dengar is cheap enough now that he fills a similar role to Tavson (68 pts vs 64 pts).
If Players can consistently get value from an Upsilon then Dengar should be no problem, especially with Contraband.

I mean, Fenn is 68 naked and is, in my experience, way better than Dengar.

Tavson has significantly more hit points. A 4 die attack vs 2, 2 die attacks. I won't say he has a better dial, but it can move to the right with out stressing itself. Better action economy, and access to sensors, specifically Firecontrol systems which Dengar would love to have. Tech upgrades, not sure which I'd use on Dengar but they are there. Technically Tavson has access to the force, but that puts his points way over for this comparison. And, while unlikely, he could have a 5 dice, double modded attack at range 2-3. And he has the reinforce action to help with damage mitigation, which is far better than +1 green dice. 

And the big reveal, drumroll please...

First Order doesn't have many better options for the cost, Scum does. Now, I'm not saying that Dengar needs to be Boba Fett good ( I don't need to try and squeeze 2 base 84 cost ships into a squad) but he's just not viable at current when compared to other options at the same cost within the faction.

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17 minutes ago, Seraphimtoaster375 said:

10 BLUE MANEUVERS!!!! 

Nice, I'd fly that

Another idea

R4-CS, Jumpmaster only, 4pts

During setup, choose left or right. 

Reduce the difficulty of the turn maneuvers of the selected side. 

Edited by flooze

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30 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Dengar is cheap enough now that he fills a similar role to Tavson 

This got me thinking about the common list with Tav +2 ace style ships.

Dengar (56)    
    Contraband Cybernetics (3)    
    Punishing One (8)    
    
Ship total: 67  Half Points: 34  Threshold: 5    
    
Fenn Rau (68)    
    Predator (2)    
    
Ship total: 70  Half Points: 35  Threshold: 2    
    
Old Teroch (56)    
    Predator (2)    
 
Ship total: 58  Half Points: 29  Threshold: 2    

Total: 195

Old teroch can strip tokens so people are scared to shoot Dengar.
Fenn/Teroch can be dodging arcs so the opponent can only shoot Dengar. 
You can Initiative kill quite easily with I6/6/5.
Every ship is a good endgame piece.
All have good Damage output.
5 point bid lets you move against most but the lists you don't you have a better joust.
 

Edited by K13R4N

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1 minute ago, flooze said:

Nice, I'd fly that

Absolutely, but they'd have to change the cost for the astro. Make it usable on all ships, regardless of size, and scale the cost to size. Something like 2-4-6, maybe 2-3-4 if they want to push the JM5K's usage, before increasing it to change things up if it sees a lot of use. 6 on the JM5K is cheap enough to warrant use, but expensive enough to interfere with the rest of the list and not make it an autoinclude.

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6 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

 

This got me thinking about the common list with Tav +2 aces ships.

Dengar (56)    
    Contraband Cybernetics (3)    
    Punishing One (8)    
    
Ship total: 67  Half Points: 34  Threshold: 5    
    
Fenn Rau (68)    
    Predator (2)    
    
Ship total: 70  Half Points: 35  Threshold: 2    
    
Old Teroch (56)    
    Predator (2)    
 
Ship total: 58  Half Points: 29  Threshold: 2    

Total: 195

Old teroch can strip tokens so people are scared to shoot Dengar.
Fenn/Teroch can be dodging arcs so the opponent can only shoot Dnegar. 
You can Initiative kill quite easily with I6/6/5.
Every ship is a good endgame piece.
All have good Damage output.
5 point bid lets you move against most but the lists you don't you have a better joust.
 

^

Dengar is probably fine at 56 points....especially for Hyperspace when he eventually and inevitably arrives. 
Dont forget R5P8

Edited by Boom Owl

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10 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

^

Dengar is probably fine at 56 points....especially for Hyperspace when he eventually and inevitably arrives. 
Dont forget R5P8

How would you change that list to fit R5 in though?

The options are:

* 1 point bid instead
* No CC on Dengar
* No preditor on OT or Fenn (or both)



Also, I rarely use R5 so when would you spend the charges for rerolls? My guess would be only if you roll 2 hits so you can get the 3rd in or if its a must hit shot (eg. Init killing)
 

Edited by K13R4N
btw i mean r5p8 not the other r5 astro

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25 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

How would you change that list to fit R5 in though?

The options are:

* 1 point bid instead
* No CC on Dengar
* No preditor on OT or Fenn (or both)



Also, I rarely use R5 so when would you spend the charges for rerolls? My guess would be only if you roll 2 hits so you can get the 3rd in or if its a must hit shot (eg. Init killing)
 

I'd drop at least the Predator on Old T and/or Fenn Rau for either just Crack Shot or nothing. 

Also, @Seraphimtoaster375 why are you piling upgrades onto Dengar? The point is to have a baseline cheap enough Dengar that I'm expecting to die, but to take a large enough chunk out of the opposing list for Fenn Rau and Old T to finish off. I think Punishing One and R5P8 are a must then after that you choose between Expert Handling, Hotshot Gunner, and Contraband Cybernetics. Pick one or none for a bid. I think expert handling is the least necessary one and contraband cybernetics is probably the best choice. Dengar is there to kill things quickly before he gets taken down so the single use Contraband Cybernetics has a larger game effecting use for him per point spent based on the amount of time he'll be on the board on average. If he last longer and one of my Fangs is still kicking, sweet, I still have my i6 + potential revenge shot still in the game longer. 

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9 minutes ago, RStan said:

I'd drop at least the Predator on Old T and/or Fenn Rau for either just Crack Shot or nothing. 

Also, @Seraphimtoaster375 why are you piling upgrades onto Dengar? The point is to have a baseline cheap enough Dengar that I'm expecting to die, but to take a large enough chunk out of the opposing list for Fenn Rau and Old T to finish off. I think Punishing One and R5P8 are a must then after that you choose between Expert Handling, Hotshot Gunner, and Contraband Cybernetics. Pick one or none for a bid. I think expert handling is the least necessary one and contraband cybernetics is probably the best choice. Dengar is there to kill things quickly before he gets taken down so the single use Contraband Cybernetics has a larger game effecting use for him per point spent based on the amount of time he'll be on the board on average. If he last longer and one of my Fangs is still kicking, sweet, I still have my i6 + potential revenge shot still in the game longer. 

Crackshot is a good idea. I think the question becomes how much of a bid dyou need? 1? 3? 5? 8?

Depending on your local meta will be the decider.

The must haves are:
Dengar - P1/R5P8
Fenn
Old T

Add ons for:
Dengar - Con C
Fenn  - Pred/Crack
Old T - Pred/Crack

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41 minutes ago, RStan said:

 

Also, @Seraphimtoaster375 why are you piling upgrades onto Dengar?

Because in my experience, anecdotal I know, he just doesn't perform with out help from upgrades. Having 1/3rd of your list dedicated to a suicide lead doesn't seem like a great option to me. BUT, that's just my opinion. I've never tried it, it's not the kind of list building or strategy I would normally go for. So It might work out better than I'm giving credit for. 

Also it just got a gunner slot, and I'm trying to make good use of it. So far I have been less than successful, but there are more options to toy with.

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10 hours ago, RStan said:

Not sure how much fixing they really have to do...have you tried Dengar w/ Punishing One & R5P8 since the points update? Seems like a solid i6 that can shoot twice for 68 pts. 

I played against it on Saturday. Once something efficient gets behind it, like a force user, it bleeds without doing much anything  in return. Because the turnarounds are red and 3v4 with a single reroll against 2 force isn't going to do much. You could rotate the arc, but that's red and once that focused attack is done, the next turn looks worse than the previous one.

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