Saving the Eagles

[Alonewolf87 304]

Since I saw this "combo" mentioned a few times lately I wanted to see where the consensus lay about this matter:

Let's say I have a Winged Guardian in play and a Meneldor's Flight/Flight of the Eagles in hand. Presuming the Guardian doesn't take damage from the attack can I use the action window between steps 6.4.3 and 6.4.4 of the combat phase to return the Guardian in my hand to still consider the attack defended and save it from its own Forced effect? (The same question could be asked about a Vassal of the Windlord and stept 6.8.3/6.8.4)

On one hand I am not totally sure if the enemy attack "resolves" after 6.4.3 or 6.4.4, and how it relates to an attack being undefended. If it resolves at 6.4.3 and in that Action Window afterwards it would be possibile make the defending character leave play and still consider the attack defended than it might even lead to some fun uses of our old friend coaster Keen-Eyed Took. If it resolves at 6.4.4 it would make more sense in general to me.

In any case I think that before we have access to an Action Window after the "attack resolves" step (whichever it is) the forced effect will take effect, having a game frame precedence over any Response or Action, so this "combo" does not work.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Alonewolf87

[Wandalf the Gizzard 370]

The eagle would return to your hand and successfully be saved from its own forced discard, but then the enemy's attack would be undefended (or in the case of Vassal of the Windlord, you would be out three attack).

[sappidus 531]

44 minutes ago, Alonewolf87 said:

On one hand I am not totally sure if the enemy attack "resolves" after 6.4.3 or 6.4.4, and how it relates to an attack being undefended.

It should resolve at 6.4.4, which is named "Enemy attack ends" and whose only text in the RR is "This step formalizes the end of the enemy's attack." I don't think there's any specific reason to believe that the resolution of an attack is instantly after damage is dealt, given that 6.4.4 exists at all.

Since combat damage was already dealt at 6.4.3, there's no undefended damage to deal anywhere, so you should be good with retrieving your Winged Guardian in the fashion you describe.

The timing issues are similar for the Vassal, so that should be kosher too.

[Alonewolf87 304]

10 minutes ago, Wandalf the Gizzard said:

The eagle would return to your hand and successfully be saved from its own forced discard, but then the enemy's attack would be undefended (or in the case of Vassal of the Windlord, you would be out three attack).

See answer below

4 minutes ago, sappidus said:

Since combat damage was already dealt at 6.4.3, there's no undefended damage to deal anywhere, so you should be good with retrieving your Winged Guardian in the fashion you describe.

The timing issues are similar for the Vassal, so that should be kosher too.

I see opinions about the undefended part differ even here.

7 minutes ago, sappidus said:

It should resolve at 6.4.4, which is named "Enemy attack ends" and whose only text in the RR is "This step formalizes the end of the enemy's attack." I don't think there's any specific reason to believe that the resolution of an attack is instantly after damage is dealt, given that 6.4.4 exists at all.

This is my position as well.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Not at liberty at the moment to dig through the FAQ, but that is where I would look for a direct answer on this question. It’s an old question which I believe was addressed directly. When a defender leaves play during any point of an attack, that attack becomes undefended. 

If the rules reference created a conflict with that, it’s probably unintentional... best to play your games consistent with the old ruling, lest your wins be “invalidated.” 

[Alonewolf87 304]

1 minute ago, GrandSpleen said:

When a defender leaves play during any point of an attack, that attack becomes undefended. 

That's how I always played it, probably based on some old FAQ as you are saying, but since I saw lots of people saying otherwise I was wondering if there was something I was doing wrong and sought confirmation.

[sappidus 531]

First, the language about undefended is very similar between the original rules and the RR.

Original:

Quote

If an attack is undefended, all damage from the attack must be assigned to a single hero controlled by the active player. Allies cannot take damage from undefended attacks. If a defending character leaves play or is removed from combat before damage is assigned, the attack is considered undefended. A character’s [defense] does not absorb damage from undefended attacks or from card effects.

RR:

Quote

If an attack is undefended, all damage from the attack must be assigned to a single hero controlled by the active player. If a defending character leaves play or is removed from combat before damage is assigned, the attack is considered undefended. A character’s [defense] does not absorb damage from undefended attacks.

The relevant old ruling from Nate is probably this one:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/8025656

In particular,

Quote

The attack resolves at the conclusion of the final step, so again, Forced effects should occur before players have a chance to take actions.

Since under the original rules, the "final step" was damage dealing, rescuing a Vassal/Guardian was indeed not allowed. But this was under the original rules' formulation where there was no real equivalent to 6.4.4; I argue the RR now makes this the final step of an (enemy) attack instead.

If anyone wants to re-ask Caleb, feel free, but until then, for me, this is one of those blessed few cases where the RR actually helped us.

[Wandalf the Gizzard 370]

Nevermind. @sappidus is correct. I was thinking about the wrong action window. I thought Alonewolf was asking about returning eagles before assigning damage, but after declaring attackers/defenders.

[Alonewolf87 304]

2 hours ago, sappidus said:

If anyone wants to re-ask Caleb, feel free, but until then, for me, this is one of those blessed few cases where the RR actually helped us.

To ask Caleb questions where should I write?

[sappidus 531]

3 minutes ago, Alonewolf87 said:

To ask Caleb questions where should I write?

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

(This is the conduit via which nearly all of our official rulings have arrived.)

[Alonewolf87 304]

Ok I sent the question in, let's see what will be the answer, I am quite curious. This might make an Eagle deck with Flight of the Eagles quite more interesting.

[Yepesnopes 636]

On 7/1/2019 at 9:29 PM, Alonewolf87 said:

Ok I sent the question in, let's see what will be the answer, I am quite curious. This might make an Eagle deck with Flight of the Eagles quite more interesting.

Thx, and let us indeed know the answer.

ellipticaltable from ringdsdb has directed me to a post from 2011 in boardgamegeek.com that, although it is a bit confusing, it claims Nat says we cannot use an action window to save the Vassal or the Guardian with events like Flight of the Eagles. 

[Alonewolf87 304]

3 hours ago, Yepesnopes said:

ellipticaltable from ringdsdb has directed me to a post from 2011 in boardgamegeek.com that, although it is a bit confusing, it claims Nat says we cannot use an action window to save the Vassal or the Guardian with events like Flight of the Eagles. 

It's the same link which Sappidus posted before, the question arises from the fact that Nate was using a different progression of the Enemy Attacks step, in use before the Rules Reference was compiled. The RR changed the steps, adding an action window after determining damage and before resolving the attack which could actually be used for this "combo".

3 hours ago, Yepesnopes said:

Thx, and let us indeed know the answer.

Of course

[Alonewolf87 304]

I got Caleb's answer and it confirms we can use the Action Window between determining damage and the end of the attack to get the Winged Guardian back in hand

Quote

Let's say I have a Winged Guardian in play and a Meneldor's Flight/Flight of the Eagles in hand. Presuming the Guardian doesn't take damage from the attack can I use the action window between steps 6.4.3 ("determine combat damage") and 6.4.4 ("enemy attack ends") of the combat phase to return the Guardian in my hand, still consider the attack defended (since damage was already determined) and save it from its own Forced effect (which should come into play after step 6.4.4)?

Nate’s previous ruling pre-dates the expanded timing chart included in the online rules reference, so it’s fair to say that it is out dated. There is an action window after damage is applied and before the attack ends, so it is possible for you to return the Winged Guardian to your hand with either event you mentioned at that time to avoid losing it to its Forced effect.

Cheers,

Caleb