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K13R4N

Kimogila - Why does no one play them?

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

 

To add to this FFG also gave us R4 on Dengar in a quick build card? so it could be they thought about it but decided against as it adds the element of a must pick card from 1.0. If the Jump could have a R4 it would be taken over everything everytime and i get the feel tehy don't wont that. 

I ran this Dengar in a few Fly Casual games recently:

Dengar (56)    
    Expert Handling (6)    
    Han Solo (Scum) (12)    
    Contraband Cybernetics (3)    
    Punishing One (8)    
    R5-P8 (4)    
    
Ship total: 89  Half Points: 45  Threshold: 5   

Did alright, but not great and definitely more expensive than it was worth. But If I had those white hard rights and blue right banks it would have been much better. I get why they don't want R4 as an auto include on JM5K's, but the ship still needs help. And at 6 points on a large base, I think it would be expensive enough not to be an auto include, but definitely worth it on this ship. 

And to get back to the Kimogila, at 4 points i feel its the same, expensive enough not to auto include, but worth the points. 

I almost never fly Y-wings without R4 unless I absolutely cannot afford it.

Edited by Seraphimtoaster375

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

 

Medium bases are great. The Firespray, TIE Punisher, and Aggressor all feel great. Scurrg and ARC-170 are nice. The first three have boost which is was makes them feel great, the second two have multiple arcs (typically) while the Kimo is trying to leverage a tiny window on a single arc to maximize efficiency. G1A pilots not named 4-lom have similar problems, but can leverage the hard stop and numerous shields for strength.

none of these factors are unqiue to medium bases

The Firespray and Aggressor feel great because they got smaller bases than in 1st ed. The Punisher feels great because it isn't a raging dumpster fire anymore. And, as stated, boost helps a lot.

Having medium bases REALLY makes the Arc a lot more clunky than it was in 1st ed. It's really difficult to weave around obstacles while maximizing the potency of the auxiliary arc when your base is just so much fatter than it used to be. Course the Arc is overall in a much better place than in 1st ed, but that's thanks to factors not at all related to the medium base (such as cost and the rest of the game actually being balanced).

Relative to the small base, though, the medium base is a pretty huge drawback

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and I know people like to bring up blocking, but blocking happens FAR less often than...just not blocking?

Besides, Arcs just aren't that fast so they can't really bring out that potential as well as one would think. 

 

Anything that went up from a small to a medium base got a nerf in that department, and it's a problem the Kim has to work with as well. 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Bullseye is a gimic that works when  it works but that you're going to over pay for according to FFG point costs. So there's that against it.  The 3 attack dice make taking any ordinance rarely worth it which means once again you're paying to have those slots and extras, but you'll never use them.  FFG has them overcosted essentially. They will probably always be overcosted so they will probably never get played.  They were never that great in 1.0 so there aren't that many of them.  They may get good in a couple of years if FFG re-releases them.

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Posted (edited)

Torani with Marksman,  APT and CCyber seems okay at 58. I'd probably  put R3 on him as well if I had points.  

To make up the points bloat for a psuedo Hatchet Man I'd probably  fill out with two spammers and a Line Ace.  

Edit: seems more than okay. ...

Any ship caught  in that R1 bulls eye is in serious  trouble. 

Edited by Bucknife

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1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

Torani with Marksman,  APT and CCyber seems okay at 58. I'd probably  put R3 on him as well if I had points.  

To make up the points bloat for a psuedo Hatchet Man I'd probably  fill out with two spammers and a Line Ace.  

Edit: seems more than okay. ...

Any ship caught  in that R1 bulls eye is in serious  trouble. 

but at I3, getting an ace stuck in bullseye isn't going to happen very often and you only get one APT

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3 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

but at I3, getting an ace stuck in bullseye isn't going to happen very often and you only get one APT

Torani is I4, but your point still stands. Good thing there is 142 points left in the squad to deal with aces 😉.

 I've tried to the kimogila as a hammer against high hit point ships, usually large base if they are present as it makes getting that bulls-eye that much easier. But most of those ships have turrets or access to them and when two ships are trading hits to the jaw, the one with more health wins, and 9 on the Kimogila is almost always less than the ships you want to go after with it like lambdas, falcons and the like. And that kind of focus with no answer just invites the rest of the enemy squad to pounce and if you don't have suitable answers in the rest of your squad.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

but at I3, getting an ace stuck in bullseye isn't going to happen very often and you only get one APT

You go for the block every time. If you miss it, you have a fantastic juicy shot. If you make it, they're actionless and tokenless so your others can pounce on them. Actually, that said, Torani Kulda is I4 so in the new meta he's actually moving after a lot of things a lot of the time if you have any kind of bid.

And if you get your APTs off, you go reload them just before your K-Turn (Y-Wings and TIE bombers WISH they could do that), and repeat. There's enough health going around that it will probably get the second shot like a Punisher does.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Cartel Executioner (43)

R5-TK (0)

Spare Parts Canister (4)

Contraband Cybernetics (3)

Marksmanship (1)

Total: 51

Cheap Talent, contraband to line up a solid shot when needed, SPC just to have a trick up your sleeve when you need it. All for 51 points doesn’t feel too bad. It’s an ugly ship but I love it. 

 

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There isn’t really a role for a medium base punchy gunship at low init with hull that just gets chewed up at the low init. See the arc also. 

And for three dice it’s just normal power level. The bullseye doesn’t come into play enough to be worth more than a single darn point.  it’s not like the 4 dice missions with r3 range denial of 1.0  

Plus the dial makes it worse. And the actions suck. And the medium base is massive suckage. Idk why medium bases feel so bad. But I think it’s cuz these ships didn’t get a mobility boost to offset their modern clumsiness and it makes them feel horrible compared to 1.0. 

Its also not a very good blocker imo. And the lack of kturn options is one reason. 

The G-1A is a lot better of a toolkit ship than the kimo. Which is just basically a low skill hired gun ronin. (That also doesn’t have good firepower point efficiency.) 

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It want's to boom and zoom but has no zoom.

Maybe Angled + an "Escape Craft" for Coordinated Locks might help the munitions versions (expensive as that'll be). The builds that focus on using their primary attacks may have benefitted a little from the hammering that the Lok got. Try them with either EH or Predator (set up 23 deg off parallel from your board edge, it helps with bullseye) and maybe an astro.

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12 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Crackshot would also be fine in principle, since you're already paying for the i3 + talent 

Also in that vein is Marksmanship. It works more than once, which is great on a ship with plenty of hull, and it synergizes with the ship ability quite well (if you can get it).

Nice that the card art shows the Kimo on it too, which may be the main reason I want to try it..

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I loves me my kimogilas.  They are generally not meta-competitive, but at casual night they're monsters.  Here's how I gear them up:

Generic:

  • Crack Shot, Predator, or Marksmanship and nothing else (maybe R5-P8 if you have the points).  I usually do Predator or Crack Shot, and always focus as my action.
  • If you catch a victim in your bullseye, fantastic (especially if it's something like a TIE Defender, poor bastard); otherwise it's a fine 3-dice ship.
  • I've considered Expert Handling to line up the bullseye on scrubs, but the price usually isn't right.

Dalan:

  • I no longer touch him.  Too hard to use his ability without Inertial Dampeners, and he's not priced properly.

Torani:

  • ...is where it's at!  Give her Cluster Missiles, if nothing else -- when she manages a cluster shot, she can auto-damage-ping foes twice.
    • Did she block or bump with someone in that bullseye, but you can still shoot someone else?  Bad day to be at range 0!  I love blocking aces with her.
    • Did she line up three vultures with her bullseye and then lock?  Say goodbye to your tokens or your hull, vultures.  Hope you weren't counting on getting energy shells off!
    • Oh no, did we predict the k-turn on that TIE/D?  Hope you don't need those tokens!
    • Is a fatty reinforced?  Gee, turns out I ignore that with my shot, and then it'll have to decide between auto-damage or ditching that token.
    • Did her init 1 or 2 buddy block the approaching swarm, so everyone's in a pile with no tokens?  Bueno.
  • The newly discounted Contraband Cybernetics makes a lot of sense for her.  I used to give her Cloaking Device for repositions and it worked quite well, but cyber is better overall.
  • Maybe give her R3 Astro, to help her line up cluster missiles shots and ensure she can use them, or be accurate with both shots.  Very optional though, and those points might be better spent on more hull or shield.
  • Talent should be Marksmanship or nothing.  I usually lock with her so predator is wasted, and I don't often get to crack shot.  But the extra crit from Marksmanship could really hurt someone.
    • I've considered Expert Handling, but it's a lot of points and she deserves dice modification from focus or lock.  It works sometimes to align her arc, but if you're doing that, have a coordinate-supporter, or Manaroo, or some other way to also focus/lock.
    • I've tried Saturation Salvo many times and as mentioned, it's not very good.  6 points for the opportunity to spend even more tokens from your munition, to reroll dice to maybe lower their defense?  Sounds neat on paper, but it just doesn't work out often enough in practice to be worth the cost.

 

I flew a 4x kimogila list and it's fun for casual play.  Under new points it looks like this:

  • Torani with Cluster Missiles + Cyber + Shield Upgrade
  • Cartel Executioner with Predator + Cyber
  • Cartel Executioner with Predator + Cyber
  • Cartel Executioner with Crack Shot
  • (or swap Predator for Crack Shot, so the 3rd generic can take Cyber)

200 points, a lot of bullseyes for delicate ships to fear, and good hull + firepower.

 

The problems this ship faces are well-explained above, and I agree that it's putting downward pressure on the ship's viability.

  • You pay a lot of points for this ship, and it melts fast if it makes itself a target.  Torani has this problem -- once my opponent knows what's coming, he makes sure Torani dies.  That bullseye double-tap happens much more often than opponents expect, and it always generates a "never again!" response unless she's paired with someone even scarier.  :D
  • The dial isn't bad, but it's not a mobile ship.  Red roll with no linking, no fast speeds, medium init, slightly awkward medium base, not great stress clearing, no R4 Astromech to manage the dial, and no additional arcs all combine to make the ship slow and cumbersome.  IMO this would be perfectly fine, the ship is meant to be that way and it's cool to me, but at the cost and with the limited options it becomes a problem.
  • Its ship ability means little to force users, and they're definitely in vogue.  Aces dodge the arc unless you're flying several of these ships, or you block the ace with a buddy to line up the shot (which IMO is a fantastic strategy, really makes the ace player twitchy).
  • Munitions that are worth equipping are not cheap.  This isn't the ideal ship for delivering Proton Torps (expensive, low-init, no linked roll), and Adv. Protons are tricky given the slow dial and propensity for melting.  Most missiles are junk; only Torani cares about Clusters, Barrage are not an option on this ship, Prockets are neat but pricey and hard to launch, and no one in the history of the universe has had good results firing Ion Missiles.  Plasma torps may shake it up a bit, but not by a ton (init is still trouble).
  • The lack of a sensor slot for FCS, Passive Sensors, or Advanced Sensors is very unfortunate.  This seems like a sensor-ish ship, imo.
  • The only viable illicits are Cyber and Cloaking Device.  Not many great astro options; you're often better off not having one.
  • It feels like the ship needs more shields or something, given its slow & steady nature.  Crits can be miserable, particularly Hull Breach, Damaged Engine, Panicked Pilot, etc.

 

Despite all this, I love the Kimogila and I try to work Torani or a couple Generics into lots of scum fleets.  ^_^  Pairs well with evil, aggro-grabbing ships like Asajj and Dengar, btw.  I also love the way the ship looks, I don't care about people who say it's ugly (they have the right to be objectively wrong, hah!).  But I'm attracted to quirky, so.

I hope that helps!  And maybe someday the kimo will get a substantial buff, but until then it'll struggle in tournaments but rule in casual.

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10 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I flew a 4x kimogila list and it's fun for casual play.  Under new points it looks like this:

  • Torani with Cluster Missiles + Cyber + Shield Upgrade
  • Cartel Executioner with Predator + Cyber
  • Cartel Executioner with Predator + Cyber
  • Cartel Executioner with Crack Shot
  • (or swap Predator for Crack Shot, so the 3rd generic can take Cyber)

Drop Kulda's shield to a hull and swap out the preds for crack and you can do the Executioners as 3x CyberCrackers (Think firecracker...). 😁

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1 hour ago, Wazat said:

I loves me my kimogilas.  They are generally not meta-competitive, but at casual night they're monsters.  Here's how I gear them up:

Generic:

  • Crack Shot, Predator, or Marksmanship and nothing else (maybe R5-P8 if you have the points).  I usually do Predator or Crack Shot, and always focus as my action.
  • If you catch a victim in your bullseye, fantastic (especially if it's something like a TIE Defender, poor bastard); otherwise it's a fine 3-dice ship.
  • I've considered Expert Handling to line up the bullseye on scrubs, but the price usually isn't right.

Dalan:

  • I no longer touch him.  Too hard to use his ability without Inertial Dampeners, and he's not priced properly.

Torani:

  • ...is where it's at!  Give her Cluster Missiles, if nothing else -- when she manages a cluster shot, she can auto-damage-ping foes twice.
    • Did she block or bump with someone in that bullseye, but you can still shoot someone else?  Bad day to be at range 0!  I love blocking aces with her.
    • Did she line up three vultures with her bullseye and then lock?  Say goodbye to your tokens or your hull, vultures.  Hope you weren't counting on getting energy shells off!
    • Oh no, did we predict the k-turn on that TIE/D?  Hope you don't need those tokens!
    • Is a fatty reinforced?  Gee, turns out I ignore that with my shot, and then it'll have to decide between auto-damage or ditching that token.
    • Did her init 1 or 2 buddy block the approaching swarm, so everyone's in a pile with no tokens?  Bueno.
  • The newly discounted Contraband Cybernetics makes a lot of sense for her.  I used to give her Cloaking Device for repositions and it worked quite well, but cyber is better overall.
  • Maybe give her R3 Astro, to help her line up cluster missiles shots and ensure she can use them, or be accurate with both shots.  Very optional though, and those points might be better spent on more hull or shield.
  • Talent should be Marksmanship or nothing.  I usually lock with her so predator is wasted, and I don't often get to crack shot.  But the extra crit from Marksmanship could really hurt someone.
    • I've considered Expert Handling, but it's a lot of points and she deserves dice modification from focus or lock.  It works sometimes to align her arc, but if you're doing that, have a coordinate-supporter, or Manaroo, or some other way to also focus/lock.
    • I've tried Saturation Salvo many times and as mentioned, it's not very good.  6 points for the opportunity to spend even more tokens from your munition, to reroll dice to maybe lower their defense?  Sounds neat on paper, but it just doesn't work out often enough in practice to be worth the cost.

 

I flew a 4x kimogila list and it's fun for casual play.  Under new points it looks like this:

  • Torani with Cluster Missiles + Cyber + Shield Upgrade
  • Cartel Executioner with Predator + Cyber
  • Cartel Executioner with Predator + Cyber
  • Cartel Executioner with Crack Shot
  • (or swap Predator for Crack Shot, so the 3rd generic can take Cyber)

200 points, a lot of bullseyes for delicate ships to fear, and good hull + firepower.

 

The problems this ship faces are well-explained above, and I agree that it's putting downward pressure on the ship's viability.

  • You pay a lot of points for this ship, and it melts fast if it makes itself a target.  Torani has this problem -- once my opponent knows what's coming, he makes sure Torani dies.  That bullseye double-tap happens much more often than opponents expect, and it always generates a "never again!" response unless she's paired with someone even scarier.  :D
  • The dial isn't bad, but it's not a mobile ship.  Red roll with no linking, no fast speeds, medium init, slightly awkward medium base, not great stress clearing, no R4 Astromech to manage the dial, and no additional arcs all combine to make the ship slow and cumbersome.  IMO this would be perfectly fine, the ship is meant to be that way and it's cool to me, but at the cost and with the limited options it becomes a problem.
  • Its ship ability means little to force users, and they're definitely in vogue.  Aces dodge the arc unless you're flying several of these ships, or you block the ace with a buddy to line up the shot (which IMO is a fantastic strategy, really makes the ace player twitchy).
  • Munitions that are worth equipping are not cheap.  This isn't the ideal ship for delivering Proton Torps (expensive, low-init, no linked roll), and Adv. Protons are tricky given the slow dial and propensity for melting.  Most missiles are junk; only Torani cares about Clusters, Barrage are not an option on this ship, Prockets are neat but pricey and hard to launch, and no one in the history of the universe has had good results firing Ion Missiles.  Plasma torps may shake it up a bit, but not by a ton (init is still trouble).
  • The lack of a sensor slot for FCS, Passive Sensors, or Advanced Sensors is very unfortunate.  This seems like a sensor-ish ship, imo.
  • The only viable illicits are Cyber and Cloaking Device.  Not many great astro options; you're often better off not having one.
  • It feels like the ship needs more shields or something, given its slow & steady nature.  Crits can be miserable, particularly Hull Breach, Damaged Engine, Panicked Pilot, etc.

 

Despite all this, I love the Kimogila and I try to work Torani or a couple Generics into lots of scum fleets.  ^_^  Pairs well with evil, aggro-grabbing ships like Asajj and Dengar, btw.  I also love the way the ship looks, I don't care about people who say it's ugly (they have the right to be objectively wrong, hah!).  But I'm attracted to quirky, so.

I hope that helps!  And maybe someday the kimo will get a substantial buff, but until then it'll struggle in tournaments but rule in casual.

This is a cool analysis. 

--

I think cheap generics could really make a niche for this clumsy but gunny ship. 
Torani too is a great ability. I do agree she needs more mobility. 
Like that in the 2.0 scheme of things, with a medium base, that they should actually have a point-reducing-bonus for being awful in mobility. And that the bullseye ability should not be included within the cost. 

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11 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

 Not sure I'd call the dial crap.  A nearly full-white dial with all three hard turns (two of them white) and a bog-standard 4K isn't too bad.  Highest speed straight only being 3 is unfortunate, but not *that* horrible.

I tend to think, rather, the issue comes from the medium base and red barrel roll.  The cumulative effect--the ship can't maneuver well--is pretty similar.

That's kind of what I mean, it might be one of the worst-handling ships in the whole game tbh.

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I think its mostly just due to the faction having similar ships that fulfill the role slightly better. The Scurrg is just slightly better for slightly more points, which in most cases is worth it.

4x Cartels with expert handling and contraband cybernetics is a thing now though. That could be alright. Predator/crackshot/marksmanship doubles down on their ability as well. There are some OK options for a 4 of list now.  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

That's kind of what I mean, it might be one of the worst-handling ships in the whole game tbh.

I honestly don’t think the Jump is that bad; it has two turnarounds and 6 blues.

But it’s still so much better than the Lambda, Upsilon, YV, etc. Similar to the ARC, but with only half the arc coverage.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Challenge accepted, other Kieran! :) 

I flew Dalan tonight, he seemed really cool! Used his ability to steal a shield from Obi and then used Dead to Rights to nuke Ric Olie when Ric had a focus+evade. That felt awesome. Blocking things into my bullseye is probably not gonna happen in a ton of games, but maybe...

for reference, my meme squad had Dalan and Jostero, both with Deadman's, Guri with Advanced Sensors, and Sunny Bounder with Autoblaster. 

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An anonymous user on the wiki pointed out a neat idea: Torani with R5-TK + Munitions Failsafe + Cluster Missiles, supported by Captain Jostero with a missile.  I love the absurdity of shooting an ally, cancelling the dice with Failsafe but it's still an attack, and pinging a range 3 foe with her bullseye to trigger Jostero's missile shot.  Then use cluster-missile's bonus attack to ping the foe a 2nd time (if they had a token for the first ping, then this time will trigger Jostero instead).

If missiles were meaner it'd be scary.  As it stands it's a silly & quirky way to double-tap at long range.  If only Jostero could equip the Diamond-Boron missiles.

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9 minutes ago, Wazat said:

An anonymous user on the wiki pointed out a neat idea: Torani with R5-TK + Munitions Failsafe + Cluster Missiles, supported by Captain Jostero with a missile.  I love the absurdity of shooting an ally, cancelling the dice with Failsafe but it's still an attack, and pinging a range 3 foe with her bullseye to trigger Jostero's missile shot.  Then use cluster-missile's bonus attack to ping the foe a 2nd time (if they had a token for the first ping, then this time will trigger Jostero instead).

I tried this Torani build before the first points update with Old T, Palob, and a filler ship (Spacetug, maybe?) Teroch and Palob ensured no one had tokens and Torani did her best to punish the for not having tokens. It was just okay. Torani's ability only hit twice, but since it was in the same engagement, an Arvel that had purposely bumped died to her shots at another opponent. It felt gimmicky. Lining up bullseye on the Kimo's is a chore. 

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Yea, lining up that bullseye is hard, and I've found Torani works best when she can operate independently without regard for where allies are, and there's something more dangerous in the list.  My favorite list pairs her with Asajj as the fleet's main threat (drawing aggro off Torani and letting her complement what Asajj is doing), and a basic Jakku Gunrunner dicking about with spacetug shenanigans.  Though the Jakku is easily replaced with a basic Kihraxz if preferred.

Link on YASB2.  You can replace Unkar crew with a Deadman's Switch and it works pretty well on that Jakku, giving foes a reason to not shoot it at point-blank range despite how much they want to murder it.  >:D  But Unkar is just so much fun to abuse too.

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Posted (edited)

Beyond what everyone else has said, I’d like to elaborate a bit on the missile slot.  A single missile upgrade on a 3-die heavy gunship is indeed garbage.  Something like the Khiraxz can get by with a Proton Rocket on a lark, but the Kimogila just can’t make effective use of the slot, even though it’s thematic.  The only way to change that would be to add a second missile slot to the Kimo, which would open up Barrage Rockets and possibly the Diamond Bore.  

So like others have said, currently the only ordnance to stack on it is torpedoes...  Which 13pts added to an existing 43 for Initiative 1, and without Passive Sensors, is tough to swallow.  And the beast is too sluggish to get Advanced Torps off reliably...  Seriously, just grab a Starviper for those.  

 

So in the long run you end up with a 3-Attack ordnance carrier gunship, that has reload and is lacking any tasty ordnance options to load it up with.  It doesn’t even get a turret + gunner for a double tap, unlike other comparable Scum heavy options (Scurrg, Y).  

 

BUT, and it’s a huge butt, it does have a place if you just want something beefy.  If you do take one, give it a hull or shield upgrade for the 3 or 4 pts.  Tack on an R5 with a Hull Upgrade, or an R2 and a Shield Upgrade, and you’ve got a hilariously tanky slug of a ship for 50pts.

Edited by It’s One Of Ours

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