Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
jocke01

Modeling for advantage

Recommended Posts

It have come up in a few games when people check for line of sight. Following the rules, you can target a model even if you just see any part of it. For example the tip of Lukes lightsaber or the barrel of Bobas carbine.

I don't know if this have been covered in the rules, but how are the rules for modeling units. Let's say I glue Luke with his lightsaber downward or Bobas arm facing the floor with his carbine. This will give My model more cover and help with los blocking.

In w40k they hade rules (still might have) that covered this, you couldn't fire on a model if you only see a sword, banner or antenna for example.

What so you guys think?

Is there rules for modeling or how so you feel about it. Would you be fine facing a Luke that dosen't have vid lightsaber pointing up. It's IMO weird that terrain that blocks normal troopers don't block Luke thanks to a few milimeters of saber.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get why Wookies should be harder to hide, but not Luke, or why Rebel Medical droids are less likely to expose their unit than Imperial ones, or why when placing figures for optimal tactical play you want to point them and their guns away from the enemy! 🤣

It doesn't come up much, but the difference between totally out of LOS and slightly visible can be huge when many units have sharpshooter and pierce.

IMO they should have rules that say when checking figure extremities you use a standard reference cylinder, but I can see why they want to keep it simple for casual play. Maybe reference cylinders should be use for high level competitive events?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It really depends on the players. I play some old 40k veterans where common sense takes precidence. Then there is some players who is very stricts rules as written, at least when it favours them. " I can see the tip of Lukes saber so I shoot at him". 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I played this game once (not even sure what it was called) where they handled this extremely well. On the backs of all the units cards they had pictures of the minis in black and red. Black was the parts where LOS couldn't be tracked to (such as a waving cloak or sword or even a shield) and red was where you could shoot them if you could see that part of the mini such as a head or arm. It'd be really hard for FFG to make that now for Legion, but maybe they could have a document posting where LOS can be tracked to for shooting minis.

Edited by bllaw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, jocke01 said:

It have come up in a few games when people check for line of sight. Following the rules, you can target a model even if you just see any part of it. For example the tip of Lukes lightsaber or the barrel of Bobas carbine.

I don't know if this have been covered in the rules, but how are the rules for modeling units. Let's say I glue Luke with his lightsaber downward or Bobas arm facing the floor with his carbine. This will give My model more cover and help with los blocking.

In w40k they hade rules (still might have) that covered this, you couldn't fire on a model if you only see a sword, banner or antenna for example.

What so you guys think?

Is there rules for modeling or how so you feel about it. Would you be fine facing a Luke that dosen't have vid lightsaber pointing up. It's IMO weird that terrain that blocks normal troopers don't block Luke thanks to a few milimeters of saber.

 

 Players cannot modify minis or use bases to significantly alter their size, height, or shape.

Tournament rules, page 5, component modification. 

Edited by Derrault

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Derrault said:

 Players cannot modify minis or use bases to significantly alter their size, height, or shape.

Tournament rules, page 5, component modification. 

Thank you, that's totally aceptable in tournaments. In normal games though, would you be okay with a modified Luke or Boba, heck even just crouching stormtroopers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Derrault said:

 Players cannot modify minis or use bases to significantly alter their size, height, or shape.

Tournament rules, page 5, component modification. 

“Significantly” being the keyword here.

The Celebration exclusive Vader has a pretty massive height advantage on his normal counterpart but afaik is tournament legal.

Repositioning an arm while still being recognizably the same character should then be within the realm of acceptability.

How about the AT-ST? The height of the model can vary wildly depending on how you choose to assemble it.

Then there’s the Death Troopers, Pathfinders, Veterans, and Shoretroopers which have crouching minis, what if you combined kits so you could field squads consisting of only those miniatures and the squad leader?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, DtLS said:

“Significantly” being the keyword here.

The Celebration exclusive Vader has a pretty massive height advantage on his normal counterpart but afaik is tournament legal.

Repositioning an arm while still being recognizably the same character should then be within the realm of acceptability.

How about the AT-ST? The height of the model can vary wildly depending on how you choose to assemble it.

Then there’s the Death Troopers, Pathfinders, Veterans, and Shoretroopers which have crouching minis, what if you combined kits so you could field squads consisting of only those miniatures and the squad leader?

Yes, its best not to take the outcome of these games too seriously. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Yes, its best not to take the outcome of these games too seriously. 

Personally I want to go to a tournament with two AT-ST models with a list containing only one. 

One would be assembled running at the peak of its height and the other crouched down. I would then have the AT-ST run up to a building before swapping it out so it can "take a knee", purely to see the expression of bewilderment on my opponent's face.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DtLS said:

Personally I want to go to a tournament with two AT-ST models with a list containing only one. 

One would be assembled running at the peak of its height and the other crouched down. I would then have the AT-ST run up to a building before swapping it out so it can "take a knee", purely to see the expression of bewilderment on my opponent's face.

Switching out models mid game would certainly be frowned upon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, TalkPolite said:

Switching out models mid game would certainly be frowned upon. 

Until we get those Droidekas! :D

 

Remember that stationary models are representing the ebb and flow of battle. A tiny glimmer of someone's foot could be enough to shoot and kill them. I understand it isn't the same with lightsabers, but what if shooting Luke's saber made him hit himself in the head? :D   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Thank you, that's totally aceptable in tournaments. In normal games though, would you be okay with a modified Luke or Boba, heck even just crouching stormtroopers?

I've played in several tournaments with crouching storm troopers, modded off of the useless rocket launcher guy.  Since the poses for the squad are different, we have to accept minis being in a certain range.  The same can be said for Death troopers, Pathfinders, and even the AT-ST.  Unless we're talking something ridiculous, I don't think it'll be a problem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, DtLS said:

“Significantly” being the keyword here.

The Celebration exclusive Vader has a pretty massive height advantage on his normal counterpart but afaik is tournament legal.

Repositioning an arm while still being recognizably the same character should then be within the realm of acceptability.

How about the AT-ST? The height of the model can vary wildly depending on how you choose to assemble it.

Then there’s the Death Troopers, Pathfinders, Veterans, and Shoretroopers which have crouching minis, what if you combined kits so you could field squads consisting of only those miniatures and the squad leader?

Vader doesn’t really do a ranged attack, so LOS and height don’t matter so much.

On a sniper mini, mortar, or anything at range 4 though, that might present a problem.

15 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Thank you, that's totally aceptable in tournaments. In normal games though, would you be okay with a modified Luke or Boba, heck even just crouching stormtroopers?

Very probably.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

That's miniature wargaming, it's not Magic: The Gathering and it's not Settlers of Catan and no good comes of trying to make it behave like them. This game exists in shades of grey and game outcomes can hinge on subjective opinions.

That being said, one thing you'll often notice with cheaters, as opposed to people who are just trying to make cool models, is minimum modelling to maximum advantage. For example, drilling a hole in the top of a vehicle and adding a piece of wire "comms antennae" that sticks up several inches so the vehicle can see over everything, then insisting on measuring LOS from the point of the bent paperclip they've jammed onto the beatup used model they got off eBay. That person doesn't have pure motivations. Whereas someone might paint a tank with lots of little modifications including a comms array, and agree not to measure from the tippy-top highest point but some sensible place on the body of the vehicle. Also, I'd be looking for a modification which is universally beneficial. Though this is rare, as most advantages are disadvantageous in some situations. The third thing is painting: someone who can't be bothered to paint, but takes the time to alter the pose in a way that seems "off", probably is not interested in making cool models.

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The more threads I see like this, I wonder what sort of people get into these games anyway.

It’s toy soldiers for adults. If you’re getting too hung up on the “how can I maximize everything I own for peak efficiency” you’re doing it wrong. I get some of the mathematical choices of what units to bring, but this is too much.

We just play rules as written for cover/line of sight. But.... we also aren’t modding the models either. Just giving them paint and turning them loose. We also aren’t playing the triple sniper game.

I have already made the mistake once of going meta-gamey in xwing. I did it because I was sick of losing when flying my squads so I gave in. I will not make that mistake again (though 2.0 makes it easier). I fly casual lists now based on what I want to try out. My legion builds are more about “what do I want to take” and then fill in the gaps.

Edited by ScummyRebel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

IMO they should have rules that say when checking figure extremities you use a standard reference cylinder, but I can see why they want to keep it simple for casual play. Maybe reference cylinders should be use for high level competitive events?

 

As someone who enjoys a tight rule set and modifying minis I have been interested in the reference cylinder idea since the game launched.

Each mini base size would have a standard cylinder size.

You can go hog wild modifying minis and the gameplay would stay consistent!

I can see moments where trying to swap out a mini for a cylinder might be fiddley but so is every move and measurement. 

Edited by BenBot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that this is more of a problem with win at all cost players who I stay away from if I'm not forced to face in a tournament. Sadly some casual-compeditive players can suprise you with some rules lawyering when their back is against the wall. In tournaments there is usually a pretty clear line and the TO can dismiss models that might "Cheat" however in just some normal matches with players you might not be more than acquainted with, it's interesting to hear what people think and how they would handle it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw a sci-fi game played a month ago and everything was based on silhouettes based on the size of the unit, with little silhouette cards, it was very cool and I think Legion would benefit from such a system. I have had snipers hit because of the tip of a barrel and a corp lost due to a medic droids arm. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Infinity does this really well with standardized cylinder sizes for different classes of troops.

We’ve also been playing Legion in a more collaborative way, like they do in Infinity. This prevents pointless agonizing over gun-tips and micro maneuvering. To get an LOS or cover advantage which is probably there, but will require multiple eyeball checks, you simply do this:

ASK you opponent: “Is there a spot behind this [object] where I can move where you can’t see me? I’m going to put this I miniature down in this area. Will this work?” Then the opponent might say, “yeah, you are good there.” Or “you;d be fine if you were 2mm to the left.”

We much prefer this form of play because “gotcha’s” are for us a negative play experience.

If I was concerned that my opponent would try to take advantage of Leia’s outstretched arm to get an LOS advantage, I’d simply say before the game: “Can we agree that this model is actually within the cylinder of the base, and the artistic pose is not the actual attackable part of the model?” If they insisted on playing WYSIWYG, then we’d have to both agree to it. Similar to how terrain is ruled before the game.

Edited by brettspielcafe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, brettspielcafe said:

ASK you opponent: “Is there a spot behind this [object] where I can move where you can’t see me? I’m going to put this I miniature down in this area. Will this work?” Then the opponent might say, “yeah, you are good there.” Or “you;d be fine if you were 2mm to the left.”

Yes. I often loudly announce my intention is that the model be out of LOS or in cover, and if they think it's presently visible to say so.

50 minutes ago, brettspielcafe said:

If I was concerned that my opponent would try to take advantage of Leia’s outstretched arm to get an LOS advantage, I’d simply say before the game: “Can we agree that this model is actually within the cylinder of the base, and the artistic pose is not the actual attackable part of the model?” If they insisted on playing WYSIWYG, then we’d have to both agree to it.


Yeah we always try and draw a measuring tape across both bases in question. It is pretty much the only sensible approach. Though we don't get finicky about a few mm of base size, the relative advantages and disadvantages usually balance out. We are all drawing from assorted collections for various rules sets. Like we used to use our already painted and ready (and paid for!) Imperial Assault troops to draft new squads when we first started, we didn't worry about the fact the bases were a little different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For tournaments, use the tournament rules.

For casual, I agree with other posters - make agreements with your opponent before the game and during the game. 

I like to play pretty hardline to the rules in order to keep myself honest and develop consistent strategy. If I’m too loosey goosey I consistently make mistakes that cost me games, especially movement/placement/cohesion errors. 

I like that this game is high on player interaction and that communicating civilly with your opponent is essential to a positive play experience. It builds trust and community. If I’m going to say “I see your lightsaber peeking up, so I have a LOS” to you, then when I’m helping check your LOS to my Wookiee’s sword, I’ll check the same way. If my opponent doesn’t want to play that way, then we we don’t and we can imagine the cylinders, etc.

 

The way I justify the lightsaber, rifle, etc. making the target eligible is that the unit is not just standing still as statues. They represent an area that mini may occupy, and if I got lucky and blew Luke’s (non-robotic) hand off with a sharpshooter shot, then he’d be in bad shape!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...