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General Organa - worth the points?

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

But the Scavenged YT-1300 strikes me as it's priced very poorly in order to prevent it from crossing the 66 point threshold.

Granted, this is super dumb. I don’t know why they get so hung up on pricing breakpoints; with the granularity we have, it’s either worth its points or it’s not.  If you price it one over, people can still slot in something very similar for the last one. If that’s still not doing well, then crossing that point wouldn’t hurt the game. 6x Alpha Interceptors are something I was pretty much banking on (even bought a 6th :’( ). But the devs say nope. Who knows why.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Granted, this is super dumb. I don’t know why they get so hung up on pricing breakpoints; with the granularity we have, it’s either worth its points or it’s not.  If you price it one over, people can still slot in something very similar for the last one. If that’s still not doing well, then crossing that point wouldn’t hurt the game. 6x Alpha Interceptors are something I was pretty much banking on (even bought a 6th :’( ). But the devs say nope.

Having flown against Interceptor Swarm a few times (typically Sloane & 4 , but once Vermiel w/Vader & 4) lately, Interceptor isn't super high on my list for must-reduce pilots.  It flies really well, hits hard, and comes in large numbers.

I feel like I should say a few words about Wampa.  He's a counter-argument to both the "reduce to 33" and "leave at 34" sides.  He's close-enough in statline to an Interceptor that he both demonstrates "Six probably won't be a problem" as well as obviating the need for 6 Alphas, since he's rather close to the same.  It's not like Wampa + 5 Alphas is much worse than the theoretical Six Alphas would be.

 

Whenever I see generic Interceptors on the table, I tend to think "These aren't that bad, I don't know why folks don't play them more."  There are a few ships like that.  Scyks, Silencers (I'll admit I was hoping for 50 point Sienar Jaemus Engineers, but more out of greed than balance), Defenders, E-Wings.

 

YT-2400 surely isn't one of those ships.

But I think Double-Tap Dash illuminates something.  This is a chassis that just needs one piece, one trick, in order to be absolutely busted.  That's pretty dangerous.  To be sure, it's probably overpriced, but it also doesn't really stand in comparison to anything.  Scavenged has to stand against Modified YT-1300 and VT-49 Decimator.  Having the 2400 be a bit overpriced due to the chance of total bat****tery from a 4-dice turret (with a weakness, to be sure) doesn't worry me as much as some mispriced ships.

Resistance Sympathizer is so much worse than every other pilot in three chassis (Modified, Scavenged, Decimator) which were close enough equivalents.  It almost would be like if generic B-Wings were 46 and 47 points, with the aces where they are now at 48 and 51.  Blues and Blades would be utterly unplayable in those scenarios, compared to any other mainline jouster.

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12 hours ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Haven’t played or seen her yet (game store lost power at our casual night), but she might be mildly underpriced on the Falcon if people find some optimized wingmen. Your experience lines up pretty closely with my headsim, at least in the level of detail described. 

I really don't think she's undercosted by any means. I was very reluctant to even try at 19pts. I think they put her at 19pts so she's only ever used occasionally, as well as to cover off the i6 coordinate on Han; and I believe they've achieved that at 19pts. After the 2 games I played I feel like she's worth a gamble on Rey or Han, maybe not on anything else. I agree with @ficklegreendice that the double crew is the most limiting factor. She might even be OK at 16pts because of this, but I appreciate the pragmatic 19pt choice since she could get really abusive if undercosted. Like I said, I feel like she's only really suited to a Falcon at this price, she's too costly to lose on a transport in round 2. If FFG want her to be used on other ships, I think she can only come down in cost. 

11 hours ago, Octarine-08 said:

Cova Nell + Leia feels like it could be a cornerstone piece. Basically it turns into a wacky small base U wing that let's its friends do some crazy stunts.

I think this is probably the only viable transport that could carry her, although Cova's ability really wants Leia's ability a lot of the time. That will be a balancing act. She is also the most expensive transport, so that is another factor to take into consideration. 

That being said I have only tried the Pod so far (terrible BTW) not the full transport, so maybe a fat transport with angled deflectors etc. might be beefy enough to make her work. 

11 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

As a 2-ship list, this seems really crazy:

Rey (73)
- Leia Organa (19)
- Rey's Millenium Falcon (5)

Poe Dameron (68)
- Daredevil (3)
- BB-8 (8)
- Spare Parts Canister (4)
- Integrated S-Foils (0)
- Advanced Optics (4)
- Black One (2)

Total: 186

Poe can do a lot with all-blue moves and three uses of BB8 (including the ability to do a hard turn before executing his maneuver). Plus, we still have 14 more points of seasoning. Autoblasters on Poe? Heightened Perception, Hotshot Gunner or Finn on Rey? Lots to play with here.

I think Poe/Rey is the one spot where Leia really works. I think Sense or Heightened Perception could be a solid options on Rey.

9 hours ago, Burius1981 said:

Is there a case to be made for taking Leia on Han, Chewy, or the Sympathizer to save points but keep the durable platform?

As @theBitterFig said, I think the sympathiser is overpriced in comparison to the other pilots, 1pt extra for Chewie makes me want Chewie every time. I think Leia could work on Han for sure (I6 coordinate is always good, even separate from her ability). Maybe Chewie's suicide squad for a mid combat coordinate?? Idk but after my short experience with her, Rey and Han seem like the stand out spots for her.

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I know they aren't excited about changing cards but...

There are a number of more elegant fixes that could be made by making some ships and upgrades limited.  For example, make the Sympathizer 66 but don't allow more than two in a list.  Could do something similar with Juke. 

Also, maybe just don't allow certain combos.  Maybe the Rebel YT-1300 keeps the illicit but you can't have the Inertial Dampeners on Han.

You lose some accessibility and gain some finer adjustments to balance.

Part of the issue here is that a number of players take this game more seriously than the devs do.

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32 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I know they aren't excited about changing cards but...

There are a number of more elegant fixes that could be made by making some ships and upgrades limited.  For example, make the Sympathizer 66 but don't allow more than two in a list.  Could do something similar with Juke.

Limited to two Scavenged YT-1300s per list (so no double ResSym + Chewie), the Resistance Sympathizer probably needs to be like 61-62.

//

You also mentioned Inertial Dampeners: I'd ban ID on any ship with R2-D2 crew (maybe also banned with Kanan, or address that interaction by rules note).  This would give back the Illicit slot to the Modified YT-1300, and with the new price scaling on Han, the in-game cost of stress and a shield is probably high enough to keep Inertial Dampeners in check.  I think nearly every player would take R2-D2 over ID any day of the week.

A banlist (specific combinations of ships with upgrades and so forth.... FFG has done this in many of their card games) would be a fairly simple tool that might be useful for balance.  You could give Leebo back a crew slot, but ban C-3PO.  Seems better than banning all Crew on Leebo.

//

I had this thought for Juke: what if it made you spend the Evade token?  Then, Phantoms can't recloak for free, Defenders and N-1 would have to give up a potent defensive tool.  Errata like this is unlikely, but then it makes Juke a really impactful decision for the attacker, rather than just a passive bonus.

Overall, I think Juke is just a bad design.  It's either nearly useless (a ship without either free Evade tokens, or already double-modded), or kinda broken (Phantoms).  It's always at least somewhat feelsbadman, since rolling arrows on green dice can be so hard in this game, and taking them away is just unpleasant.

Mostly, I don't think Juke is fixable by price.  The mechanic is just wrong; either too weak or too toxic.

50 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Part of the issue here is that a number of players take this game more seriously than the devs do.

If by this you mean that too many players take it too seriously (I know I do), then I'm in full agreement.  I'm sure I've got to lighten up.

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38 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

 

Overall, I think Juke is just a bad design.  It's either nearly useless (a ship without either free Evade tokens, or already double-modded), or kinda broken (Phantoms).  

That's the hallmark of a good design to me. If every upgrade is great on every ship, then you just end up with cards like 1.0 Ptl, crackshot, and expertise that are ubiquitous and boring auto-includes on everything.

The actual problem with Juke is that, like many dev failures in other FFG games, the devs failed to test it in large numbers and it should have been semi-limited. it's only an OP card when there are 3+ Jukes in a list.

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12 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

That's the hallmark of a good design to me. If every upgrade is great on every ship, then you just end up with cards like 1.0 Ptl, crackshot, and expertise that are ubiquitous and boring auto-includes on everything.

The actual problem with Juke is that, like many dev failures in other FFG games, the devs failed to test it in large numbers and it should have been semi-limited. it's only an OP card when there are 3+ Jukes in a list.

Fair point on always-good-things being bad design.

However, I feel like Juke skewed a bit too much towards the extremes in the "it's either terribly bad or amazingly broken" scale.  I think a better example of the principle are the Force Talents.  They're mostly not just "generally good" but they all have a purpose, and that purpose can be quite powerful when you've got some sort of a plan for it.

(Except Predictive Shot.  That's trash.)

Juke, however, is just passive dice mods you get for having a particular token.  Those mods are either spending a lot points for little effect (most stuff), or being too cheap for that effect.  Force Talents aren't just passive mods that are good on some ships and bad on others, they all tend to "do" something.

Also, I don't think it was just 3+ Jukes which was the problem.  Choke and Cloak Whisper with Vader crew was potent as the only Juke in the list.

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6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Fair point on always-good-things being bad design.

However, I feel like Juke skewed a bit too much towards the extremes in the "it's either terribly bad or amazingly broken" scale.  I think a better example of the principle are the Force Talents.  They're mostly not just "generally good" but they all have a purpose, and that purpose can be quite powerful when you've got some sort of a plan for it.

(Except Predictive Shot.  That's trash.)

Juke, however, is just passive dice mods you get for having a particular token.  Those mods are either spending a lot points for little effect (most stuff), or being too cheap for that effect.  Force Talents aren't just passive mods that are good on some ships and bad on others, they all tend to "do" something.

Also, I don't think it was just 3+ Jukes which was the problem.  Choke and Cloak Whisper with Vader crew was potent as the only Juke in the list.

All Force upgrades are terribly designed because they charge you points for the force token and then they charge you points for the ability that already costs the force token that you already spent points on. Really it was either Hate or some degenerate combo (Kanan+ID) thats been propping up a lot of Force upgrades 

cloak and choke whisper worked as the only juke in the list because Vader crew was basically a second copy of Juke, it had the same ability, "spend a focus or take a damage", that's pretty much exactly what Juke does. Getting to proc 2 Jukes off the same ship is pretty nuts, that synergy was enough to overcome Vader crews points cost (which nobody plays anymore).

Back on topic, I think Leia has the same problem as all force upgrades, you are paying points for the force token, for the ability, and for the coordinate action, but you never can use more than one of them per turn unless you pay more points for a pilot with force. So like other force upgrades that have found success only through degenerate combos (Vader, Kanan), Leia will need the right home to work, and it looks like right now that's with Rey pilot or gunner. 

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On 6/28/2019 at 11:04 AM, PaulRuddSays said:

Haven’t played or seen her yet (game store lost power at our casual night), but she might be mildly underpriced on the Falcon if people find some optimized wingmen. Your experience lines up pretty closely with my headsim, at least in the level of detail described. 

Rey+Poe or DblFalcons.

Expect it at worlds unless it starts smashing big things like GenCon without mercy. 

Then she might get an emergency increase. 

Outside of Falcon, I have a hard time seeing her in three+ Resistance lists, and I think that's by design. 

I could be wrong. 

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On 6/28/2019 at 5:24 PM, theBitterFig said:

Whenever I see generic Interceptors on the table, I tend to think "These aren't that bad, I don't know why folks don't play them more."  There are a few ships like that.  Scyks, Silencers (I'll admit I was hoping for 50 point Sienar Jaemus Engineers, but more out of greed than balance), Defenders, E-Wings.

Having played a fair amount of generic Interceptors, I’ll tell you why I don’t personally.

Variance and initiative kills.

At I1, and 3 health, they are prone to high degrees of variance. You almost certainly lose a ship before you even fire, and losing two isn’t uncommon. They also have an unfortunate tendency to whiff attacks. The reality is that they are too variance prone to be a reliable list type. And at I1 are unable to largely utilize their greatest asset, maneuverability, to counteract that in the initial engage. Strikers are similar, but with 4 health are more likely to survive an attack, and losing two in the first engage before shooting is very unlikely. Higher initiative, particularly Rebel Beef mainstays, are too efficient and even a perfect opening engage likely sees your numbers equalized by the end of round 1.

The best mix I’ve found for Alpha Interceptors is with a mix of generic strikers as well. Use the Strikers as you’re main hoist force, and split the Alphas wide to flank. Make your opponent either split fire, give the Alphas a free flank, or turn to an alpha and give the strikers free flanks. Pure Interceptors don’t work as well.

Generic Defenders are, and have been, great. Two of those with a third ace is very effective. Same with E-wings, very underrated ship.

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5 hours ago, Bucknife said:

 Outside of Falcon, I have a hard time seeing her in three+ Resistance lists, and I think that's by design. 

I could be wrong. 

She fits with Cova Nell alongside a BB8 Poe and Autoblasters Nien.

You can transform that into a 4 Ship build by subbing in Advanced Optics Tallie and Greer for Poe.

Finn probably deserves mention. At 30 points with Heroic, he may serve a role similar to Blount/Wampa as a budget hitter which Resistance sorely lacks.

 

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I tried her out in a squad on Rey with no other upgrades with a cheapish Poe and Heroic Finn. I liked Poe and Rey but Finn was just okay, but he is only 30 points. I think maybe a decked out Poe and Rey might be the way to go.

The Falcon loves the options Leia gives it, dear god the white s-loope are back! And Poe loves the options as well, white tallon roll and slamming into a red tallon roll anyone? Initial D Poe baby.

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I played against a Rey/Poe and Rey/Nien before Leia was revealed using Finn/Rose, and it was ugly. Consistent, very high damage, and tough ships.

 

I'm a little worried about the options now with new crew, but we'll see. Maybe swarms will keep her in check while the Aces Rock, Paper, Scissors the swarms.

 

Either way, as a few others have said, big bases will be back in a big way. 

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18 hours ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

I tried her out in a squad on Rey with no other upgrades with a cheapish Poe and Heroic Finn. I liked Poe and Rey but Finn was just okay, but he is only 30 points. I think maybe a decked out Poe and Rey might be the way to go.

Yeah I had the same feeling after flying the pod. It's pretty terrible, and certainly doesn't suit an ace list. It's slow, clunky and fragile. 

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Posted (edited)

Early testing tells me “yes”.  She makes the Falcon kind of sing. I think if Rey was base 92 with 3 force or Han base 90 with 1 force and that same Leia ability built in, people wouldn’t even really hesitate. 

Edited by gennataos

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2 hours ago, gennataos said:

Early testing tells me “yes”.  She makes the Falcon kind of sing. I think if Rey was base 92 with 3 force or Han base 90 with 1 force and that same Leia ability built in, people wouldn’t even really hesitate. 

She certainly does make it sing. However, I was a huge Falcon player in first ed. and pretty much swore off it in 2nd ed. due to its high cost. I think even Leia built in, there's still a ceiling in which the Falcon is too expensive to be worth it. This is especially the case for the scavenged version as its copped a kneecapping in comparison to the rebel Falcon. 

For me personally, that ceiling is 90-95pts, past 95pts it becomes a huge target, and unlike the rebel falcon it can't effectively tank. It also puts massive restrictions on list building at that cost as well. When you are spending the same points as the cost of Nien and Lulo, I know which I'd rather take.

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31 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

She certainly does make it sing. However, I was a huge Falcon player in first ed. and pretty much swore off it in 2nd ed. due to its high cost. I think even Leia built in, there's still a ceiling in which the Falcon is too expensive to be worth it. This is especially the case for the scavenged version as its copped a kneecapping in comparison to the rebel Falcon. 

For me personally, that ceiling is 90-95pts, past 95pts it becomes a huge target, and unlike the rebel falcon it can't effectively tank. It also puts massive restrictions on list building at that cost as well. When you are spending the same points as the cost of Nien and Lulo, I know which I'd rather take.

Probably 50% of my 1.0 games were with Rey/Poe.  I dumped Rey hard early in 2.0.  I agree she's just not as good as she was in 1.0, but she's something different now with these new crew.  All any ship has to do is help propel a list to its win condition, which I don't think 2.0 Rey could do before, but might be able to now.

Funny you should mention Nien and L'ulo, because they happen to fit with Leia Rey, with some toys to throw around.  ;)

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1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Probably 50% of my 1.0 games were with Rey/Poe.  I dumped Rey hard early in 2.0.  I agree she's just not as good as she was in 1.0, but she's something different now with these new crew.  All any ship has to do is help propel a list to its win condition, which I don't think 2.0 Rey could do before, but might be able to now.

Funny you should mention Nien and L'ulo, because they happen to fit with Leia Rey, with some toys to throw around.  ;)

Yeah I agree she's much better with this point reduction and the additional new crew. I think Rey with Leia and nothing else is the balance of a singularly good ship that is efficient enough to allow for solid wingmen. Anything higher than that and it throws off the list composition.

I'm interested in trying her with Korr Sella and the title for 84pts. That will allow for some really solid wingmen.

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On 6/28/2019 at 5:41 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

 I’ve still never heard of ANYONE ever  winning a single 2.0 game with a YT-2400, even a casual game (except obviously double-tap Dash). If you want to take it to the table and prove me wrong I’d love you to, but all my experience, all I’ve heard from others who HAVE tried it, and all the data on ListFortress says it’s nowhere near the ballpark it should be in. Everyone who says “it’s probably fine” typically has never tried it or otherwise has no idea what they’re talking about.

Look me straight in the eye and tell me there’s ANY list that would prefer an 86pt Fringer to an 82 point Solo.

Challenge accepted!

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27 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Let me know how it goes. I want to be impressed, really.

Me too. I don't normally fly rebels, but I can't let an opportunity like this pass. 

Lt. Kestal was my last challenge. I didn't get a tournament worthy list, but it was fairly competitive and fun to fly in casual games. After trying to cobble together a couple lists I get the feeling this will be fairly similar. 

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Loved flying 1.0 Dash, and I wish the YT-2400 were playable competitively in 2.0.  (I don't think it is.) 

But if the goal is just to put together something that includes a YT-2400 and can win a casual game, that's quite do-able.  Cassian, Braylen and Leia are good enough to carry the Fringer, and you get 6 points to season to taste.

Wild Space Fringer (86)    
Ship total: 86  Half Points: 43  Threshold: 5    
    
Cassian Andor (51)    
    Leia Organa (6)    
    Pivot Wing (0)    
    
Ship total: 57  Half Points: 29  Threshold: 4    
    
Braylen Stramm (51)    
Ship total: 51  Half Points: 26  Threshold: 4    
    
    
Total: 194    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z41XWWWWWY32XWW46WWW140Y73XWWWWW&sn=New Squadron&obs=

 

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30 minutes ago, Mistborn_Jedi said:

Loved flying 1.0 Dash, and I wish the YT-2400 were playable competitively in 2.0.  (I don't think it is.) 

But if the goal is just to put together something that includes a YT-2400 and can win a casual game, that's quite do-able.  Cassian, Braylen and Leia are good enough to carry the Fringer, and you get 6 points to season to taste.

Wild Space Fringer (86)    
Ship total: 86  Half Points: 43  Threshold: 5    
    
Cassian Andor (51)    
    Leia Organa (6)    
    Pivot Wing (0)    
    
Ship total: 57  Half Points: 29  Threshold: 4    
    
Braylen Stramm (51)    
Ship total: 51  Half Points: 26  Threshold: 4    
    
    
Total: 194    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z41XWWWWWY32XWW46WWW140Y73XWWWWW&sn=New Squadron&obs=

 

Um... Wrong Leia... Neat list though. :)

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