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ficklegreendice

The Viability of the Hyena (emphasis on) Bomber

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Posted (edited)

So here's the one Hyena I havn't been able to make a list for

Swz41_hyena-class-bomber.png

Reason being I've seen my one Torrent eat it on the way in...one the first round of fire...basically every game (which is its job, but not the Drone's job)

While the ability is certainly unique, it's also incredibly short ranged. I think everyone's figured out the obvious use here of hair-balling Proximity Mines into peoples' faces (using Delayed fuses to not blow yourself up), but there's the issue of being required to end your turn in extreme proximity (heh) to the enemy.

But then I realized I never actually put these guys on the table (doi) and started to wonder...how close exactly DO they need to be? What's the effective "range" given a small ship? This isn't exactly easy to figure out since the prox mine isn't as wide as a firing arc, but here are some apPROXimations

IMG_20190627_171653811.jpg?width=325&hei A.) a Drone launched prox mine is slightly longer than range 1

IMG_20190627_171855414.jpg?width=1026&he 

B.) the prox mine "arc" is a range ruler's width wider than the front face of the Drone's base (so imagine your entire front section is a big-ol bullseye arc)

So, that's just for unavoidable overlapping the moment the prox is dropped. What about unavoidable drops where you just hairball it in front of the opponent? Well, gents, that's FAR more difficult to measure because accounting for a ship's maneuvers will require far more time than I'm willing to give.

The most guaranteed you can get (short of your opponent pulling a stop out of their ***) is as so:

IMG_20190627_174850238.jpg?width=1026&he

[disclaimer: obvious inexact and sloppy model is obvious]

C.) roughly speaking, your opponent's base has to be "in range" of the mine and their bare plastic has to be (At most) parallel to yours

 

 

I just did some other mockups with the bomber and target right across from one another.

At the tail end of range 2, any speed turn for a small base sees it safely out of harm's way. In front of the mine, a 2-3 bank will overlap the mine (a 1-bank won't). A one-forward won't make it to the mine, but any other speed will.

If the target is completely within range 2 (we'll call it "Range 1.5"), then anything but a 1-turn will hit the mine (note: remember, this is dead-on, we're not counting the ability to just turn/bank away from an off-center mine)

 

and that's about all the testing I feel like doing outside an actual game. So, in summary

 

1.) To guarantee your hairball's effectiveness, your opponent has to be at range 1 (+a hair's breadth more at most) and within your front width + the width of a range ruler

2.) To guarantee your opponent will move over your prox with anything but a stop, the range is the same but your "arc" extends out to the bare plastic part your bases

 

Tl;dr: the bombardment drone's prox mine launch is basically a range 1 "double-bullseye arc" shot (at essentially initiative 0)

32-c obviously makes life easier, but now that's a LOT of investment for something that's effectively at only excessively close range. Maybe Sear would be an idear?

Dunno, ****'s real risky at 39 points (40 with struts; asteroids would really help funnel your opponent in)

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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It’s a real shame these guys can’t have something like skilled bombardier, that would help quite a bit.  

i was also hoping that these guys would be able to trajectory sim mines before we had all the info, but I don’t think that works either.

i think to use them as intended you need to come in from the side while some other part of your list jousts, they might get the mines to hit before they die then.

also Conner nets are slightly longer, even though they are very costly for 1 charge.

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Posted (edited)

right, got blindsided by the ability that I forgot they could drop things normally

So they're very weird range 1 double-bullseye Arcs

 

honestly, my only issue with the Bombardment is the base cost. FFG was on the money with making specialized loadouts, but they forgot that NOT having long range firepower and a ship this spindly and not terribly maneuverable is a weakness. This is extra weird because 404 is priced with his pilot (li)ability in mind

A 29 point price-tag (ala the generic I 3) would've been more appropriate 

My rough attempt at a list would try to leverage their close-combat threat with some long range threat, but not entirely sure where said threat would be in CiS. So I just slapped this together

Bombardment Drone (32)    
    Proximity Mines (6)    
    Delayed Fuses (1)    
    Landing Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 40  Half Points: 20  Threshold: 3    
    
Bombardment Drone (32)    
    Proximity Mines (6)    
    Delayed Fuses (1)    
    Landing Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 40  Half Points: 20  Threshold: 3    
    
Wat Tambor (42)    
    Crack Shot (1)    
    TA-175 (5)    
    
Ship total: 48  Half Points: 24  Threshold: 3    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v7!s=200!325:,70,,236,237;325:,70,,236,237;306:116,239,,;279:209,,;279:209,,;279:209,,&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Prox bombardment Hyenas would be more attractive if the price was right and they could take ESC.

Three points for initiative, three more points for the luxury of equipping a six point upgrade, plus another point for fuses, and then having no backup plan or alternate way of dealing damage except getting off the mine is a real big ask.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

you use fuses right? 1pt to increase flexability seems massive.

ALWAYS

otherwise you miss-eye something and just hand your opponent the win

 

 

 

another issue with Bombard Drones: the potential superiority of now-4-point-discord missiles

These guys seem easier to land (apart from the fact that they only launch on 3-speed straights or banks)

1.)

Missile_DiscordMissiles.png

start of engagement rather than beginning of next turn (great for NOT getting initiative killed!), even if it eats a calc. 

 

2.) Remote_BuzzDroidSwarm.png

same deal, affects enemies at range 0 

each enemy, however

and specifically enemies

No fuses needed!

(and no overcosted pilot needed either!)

 

[can be shot, though, but hey better them than you]

Edited by ficklegreendice

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10 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

you use fuses right? 1pt to increase flexability seems massive.

I was wondering about fuses, and the timing for when you decide to add one.  Do you see if the bomb overlaps another ship before deciding? Is it possible to add the fuse after you see a mine overlap a ship you don't want it to overlap?

My best guess is that the game effect (is a mine a game effect?  I'm not 100% confident) of a mine detonating happens before the card effect of Delayed Fuses, so if you overlap on placement, it goes boom, whether or not you want to add a fuse.  However, if it doesn't overlap, you get to see where it is before you decide on adding a fuse or not.

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12 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I was wondering about fuses, and the timing for when you decide to add one.  Do you see if the bomb overlaps another ship before deciding? Is it possible to add the fuse after you see a mine overlap a ship you don't want it to overlap?

swz41_delayed-fuses.png

"After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified."

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4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

swz41_delayed-fuses.png

"After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified."

Utterly pointless response (other than the link of the picture).  The point of the question is to get a firmer understanding and a second opinion on what happens when there are different things which happen after dropping or launching a bomb or mine.

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1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

Utterly pointless response (other than the link of the picture).  The point of the question is to get a firmer understanding and a second opinion on what happens when there are different things which happen after dropping or launching a bomb or mine.

The detonation would happen before Fuses could be applied I think. Mine is "dropped/launched" onto a target causing an overlap triggering its effect, per the ability queue rules this kicks it to the front of the ability queue ahead of the"after you drop, launch or place" trigger of Delayed Fuses.

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Posted (edited)

 the most important thing about Fuses is that they're after the mine is dropped/launched

so if you hairball and miss the target, you don't blow yourself up by moving through it

 

as for the more corner case use, all I can find in the rules ref (https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/48/4d/484d07ae-6bdf-4e42-89af-180f728ad059/swzrulesreference_v104-compressedv2.pdf) is

 

 

EDIT: Devices are discussed with more exact verbage on page 9

 

To drop a device, follow the steps below: 1. Take the template indicated on the upgrade card. 2. Set the template between the ship’s rear guides.

3. Place the device indicated on the upgrade card into the play area and slide the guides of the device into the opposite end of the template. Then remove the template.

To launch a device, follow the steps below: 1. Take the template indicated on the upgrade card. 2. Set the template between the ship’s front guides.

3. Place the device indicated on the upgrade card into the play area and slide the guides of the device into the opposite end of the template. Then remove the template.

...

• If a device is placed overlapping a ship, it is placed under the ship’s base.

• If a device that detonates when overlapped is placed under more than one ship’s base, it detonates instantly and the player placing the device chooses which ship it affects.

 

So "placed" I guess technically occurs during step 3 before the process of dropping/launching is concluded

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

 the most important thing about Fuses is that they're after the mine is dropped/launched

so if you hairball and miss the target, you don't blow yourself up by moving through it

 

as for the more corner case use, all I can find in the rules ref (https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/48/4d/484d07ae-6bdf-4e42-89af-180f728ad059/swzrulesreference_v104-compressedv2.pdf) is

 

 

EDIT: Devices are discussed with more exact verbage on page 9

 

To drop a device, follow the steps below: 1. Take the template indicated on the upgrade card. 2. Set the template between the ship’s rear guides.

3. Place the device indicated on the upgrade card into the play area and slide the guides of the device into the opposite end of the template. Then remove the template.

To launch a device, follow the steps below: 1. Take the template indicated on the upgrade card. 2. Set the template between the ship’s front guides.

3. Place the device indicated on the upgrade card into the play area and slide the guides of the device into the opposite end of the template. Then remove the template.

...

• If a device is placed overlapping a ship, it is placed under the ship’s base.

• If a device that detonates when overlapped is placed under more than one ship’s base, it detonates instantly and the player placing the device chooses which ship it affects.

 

So "placed" I guess technically occurs during step 3 before the process of dropping/launching is concluded

I think they're referring to this pilot's ability when they use "place" on Delayed Fuses.

•Finch Dallow

Edited by Hiemfire

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I mean, they use "place" in the rules ref as a step in both Dropping and Launching

and since the mine would go kaboomy on place, it'd explode before you've completed dropping/launching it (i.e, can't fuse it before it explodes)

 

for Finch, it doesn't matter since he can't place mines with his ability

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Thinking about it, and the recommendations for Probe Droids, maybe it's possible to jury-rig a Bombardment Drone into a quasi-32c 

what you trade in the flexibility of coordinate you get in the slightly clunky but very punchy prox mine launch

Bombardment Drone (32)    
    Proximity Mines (6)    
    DRK-1 Probe Droids (5)    
    Delayed Fuses (1)    
    Landing Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 45  Half Points: 23  Threshold: 3    
    
DBS-404 (30)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 35  Half Points: 18  Threshold: 3    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    
Ship total: 24  Half Points: 12  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v7!s=200!325:,70,221,236,237;326:,209,,,;279:209,,;279:209,,;279:209,,;279:209,,;279:209,,&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

 

alternatively, roll two Trade Feds into a beeblebubble with T-175 (What fits? Wat fits!) 

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@ficklegreendice I as well have been starting to look into not actually bringing a 32C or Bellyrub to carry a tactical relay and consider a Hyena with carrying the DRK Probes as my "support relay" because it just becomes LRS with necessary play to get them where you need the locks. It's opened up a few possibilities in the 7 - 8 ship builds. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm still in dire need of some kind of visual showcasing how feasible the probe drone is

it's a speed 3 and then speed 2; then your ship has to move and your opponent has to end the turn out of range for the LRS effect to work 

dunno how that looks like in practice

 

I know it's speed 3 launch + speed 2 relocate + range 3 locks measured from the probe, but the most important thing is the ultimate distance between the probe and the carrier

 

(mock-up with ship proxies) ...I forgot probes are weirdo pentagons that move weird. The actual distance is actually probably greater 

IMG_20190628_112427413.jpg?width=1083&he

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, RStan said:

@ficklegreendice I as well have been starting to look into not actually bringing a 32C or Bellyrub to carry a tactical relay and consider a Hyena with carrying the DRK Probes as my "support relay" because it just becomes LRS with necessary play to get them where you need the locks. It's opened up a few possibilities in the 7 - 8 ship builds. 

 

39 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I'm still in dire need of some kind of visual showcasing how feasible the probe drone is

it's a speed 3 and then speed 2; then your ship has to move and your opponent has to end the turn out of range for the LRS effect to work 

dunno how that looks like in practice

 

I know it's speed 3 launch + speed 2 relocate + range 3 locks measured from the probe, but the most important thing is the ultimate distance between the probe and the carrier

 

(mock-up with ship proxies) ...I forgot probes are weirdo pentagons that move weird. The actual distance is actually probably greater 

IMG_20190628_112427413.jpg?width=1083&he

This is also on my list to try. The droids are pretty good at stalling a turn or two by doing sharp turns with brolls, so you can build some distance between them and the probe. 

Also, I’d probably try and launch with a bank and move it with banks for a little extra distance per move. 

Edit - I guess you can also launch the probe with a 3 turn? Gives you definite options for different openings. 

Edited by PaulRuddSays

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The probes launch at the end phase, and move during the system, right..? So the turn before you’re in engage-range, you wait til the end phase, launch, move during system, and then your ships can target lock anything within range 3 of that.

Not saying its foolproof, and they could always try to run the probe over, but it’s got some range even just the first round you launch it.

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Oh, I don't give a ****** about the probe itself. If it allows a round of Long Range Scanning before it pops, it's more than done its job (also, two charges!)

I'm more worried about the distance between the probe and the carrier after the initial launch + movement. 

The whole point is for the drone to be in range while your ships are not

Do not have the templates required to make a proper mockup

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Just playing with templates a bit, the lock range from a Probe didn't seem much further than the lock range when taking a 5-straight.  5-straight plus Boost would be about the distance of the Probe after deployment and it moves.  But taking a 5-straight to get into lock range opens up range control options for your opponent.  Probe Launch followed by 1 straight, at nearly max lock range from the probe, will probably need a 3-speed maneuver from an enemy small base to get into shooting range that turn.

The play and counter-play options with respect to range control are inconceivable.

tenor.gif?itemid=6654311

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7 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Oh, I don't give a ****** about the probe itself. If it allows a round of Long Range Scanning before it pops, it's more than done its job (also, two charges!)

Right, but if you’re trying what I suggested and launching it head-on they could plausibly run it over during the activation phase.

I suppose if you’re all i1 they’ll have trouble doing so before you can lock, though 😜

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Posted (edited)

Gonna bring this back cause I can't stop thinking about this weirdo ship. Can't ignore a good challenge.

So, problemo: the ship has a 2-die primary with no secondary weapons and is probably 3 points overcosted (imo should've been 29 like the generic i3) 

Now, FCS helps a lot (which is good because I've shown how limited the bombing window is) but still 2-dice and pricey.

The full package (prox, delayed, struts, fcs) is a nasty 42 points -- same as the 104th Arc or Ole! (Though that guy is wildly undercosted). Thankfully, the drone is at least I 3 to give it something against 3-die generic equivalents.

Anyway, despite its issues, I went ahead and made a skew because I'm crazy

Literal Bomber Escort

(32) Bombardment Drone [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(6) Proximity Mines
(5) DRK-1 Probe Droids
(1) Delayed Fuses
(1) Landing Struts
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 47

(32) Bombardment Drone [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(6) Proximity Mines
(1) Delayed Fuses
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 42

(32) Bombardment Drone [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(6) Proximity Mines
(1) Delayed Fuses
Points: 39

(52) 0-66 [Sith Infiltrator]
(10) Kraken
(10) Count Dooku
Points: 72

Total points: 200

Kraken and Probe droid will hopefully see you in double calced and locked. Then it's a question of abusing struts to not crumple to a joust and hopefully land some proxs

Now, it's probably a MUCH better idea to replace the incomplete "fodder bomber" with more useful something (404 comes to mind, or even a TuB to carry the probes). Will refine 

Example: 39 points = 404 w/ESC and struts + Grievous Crew

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I want to make a probe droids + ESC swarm list work, but range control seems pretty tough.  The ideal would be to be out of combat on round 2 but with the probe in range to get locks, then engaging at range 3 (or at least 2) on round 3.

If the other team wants to joust and can choose to set up after us (another reason I3 might help!), just staying out of combat in round 2 can be tricky, much less making sure round 3 is a long-range engagement.

I guess there’s no reason probe droids have to work well in a joust, though.  Most lists won’t want to joust an ESC swarm anyway, and if probe droids work well in more circuitous engagements that’s probably enough.

What I really want is a Hyena that can carry DBM + probe droids...

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On 6/28/2019 at 12:29 AM, Storgar said:

It’s a real shame these guys can’t have something like skilled bombardier, that would help quite a bit

Oooh I'd love that one on zuvio, too

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