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Cova Nell + R4 astromech

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9 hours ago, JJ48 said:

This sentence here makes me think you don't really understand the conversation at all.  No one is claiming there's a "'constant abilities' rule".  Rather, they're just saying "constant ability" to describe how it works.  It's not RAW vs RAI; it's cards as written vs convoluted hoop-jumping to claim the cards are wrong.

Instead of taking a shot at me you could just say you don't like the way I've re-framed the argument, but sure let's take another lap around the circle.

Prior to this wave there was no need to check a maneuver's difficulty outside of the "check difficulty" step of executing a maneuver. No one cared  about the timing of R4 because it didn't matter. Now we have this new process where several ships reference a revealed maneuver dial and suddenly timing is an issue.

Your camp has decided that R4's ability is always on - IE a constant ability. Why is it always on? Show me anything in the rules that supports this. I believe they do not. In fact I would argue that in the rules reference under "difficulty" all the rules listed which show how a maneuver's difficulty can be increased/decreased are discussed as a bullet point under the check difficulty step. Combine that with the RR for abilities, which says abilities have a timing and an effect and must be resolved (unless it has the word 'may' or the 'attack:' header) and I would say the case is strengthened that R4's ability is meant to resolve during the check difficulty step of executing a maneuver.

There's my position with use of the rules reference to support why I believe I am correct. Once again I ask for someone to do the same and demonstrate what in the rules says R4's ability is "always on." It would be nice to actually see someone's reasoning with the rules like I did and not just a reply of "It just is." However no one has wanted to do that or no one has wanted to admit that they cannot do that and that is why the "discussion" went 6 pages.

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17 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:

which says abilities have a timing and an effect and must be resolved

Kindly show us where R4 has any sort of timing.  "Timing" in the RR, lists several potential terms:
Before
At the start of
While
At the end of
After

R4 has none of these (nor anything similar).  Even the section on Difficulty lists none of these in regards to adjusting difficulty.  From this it seems clear that either not all abilities have a timing (and the RR needs to be updated to reflect this), or else the text on R4 and similar cards is not an Ability, but something else ("Effect" maybe?  "Trait"?)

Either way, there is nothing to indicate that the effect starts or stops, nor that it has any sort of duration.  Whether there is an official name for it or not, the logical reading is that such an effect simply is.  If you disagree, show us where in the rules it gives an actual timing for adjusting difficulty; keeping in mind that the entry for Difficulty has no such timing (unless I'm missing something).

One alternative, I suppose, is that you could claim that the timing is implied, though not actually defined in the RR, but then you'd basically be using the same arguments as the "always on" crowd, though rather less straightforwardly.

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Now we're having a discussion :). I'll give you that I do think the timing is implied and I think that's a fair assessment. So yes essentially the same argument with different conclusions.

Camp A - R4  must resolve, but it did not provide the framework so the most logical place to resolve it is in the check difficulty step.

Camp B - R4 must resolve, but it did not provide the framework which creates a rules exception. This exception is allowed via the Golden Rules so R4 does not resolve and remains constant.

To be fair I can really see it either way when I put it like that, is that a fair re-wording in your eyes as well?

I've also been waiting for Camp C to chime in - the camp that says "this really doesn't matter because regardless of the ruling I will still annihilate Cove with (insert list name)." 

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5 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

Now we're having a discussion :). I'll give you that I do think the timing is implied and I think that's a fair assessment. So yes essentially the same argument with different conclusions.

Camp A - R4  must resolve, but it did not provide the framework so the most logical place to resolve it is in the check difficulty step.

Camp B - R4 must resolve, but it did not provide the framework which creates a rules exception. This exception is allowed via the Golden Rules so R4 does not resolve and remains constant.

To be fair I can really see it either way when I put it like that, is that a fair re-wording in your eyes as well?

I've also been waiting for Camp C to chime in - the camp that says "this really doesn't matter because regardless of the ruling I will still annihilate Cove with (insert list name)." 

i'm sorry, but that the timing is implied is nonsense. R4 has an effect, but it's not an ability.

abilities are clearly defined on page two of the rules reference. R4 doesn't fit the bill.

timings are also clearly defined on page 18 and 19 of the rules reference. R4 uses none of the language that describes timing - and because of that R4s effect does not have a timing.

lets check out Difficulty on page 10 further:

 

"DIFFICULTY
Each maneuver has three components: speed (a number 0–5), difficulty (red, white, or blue), and bearing (an arrow or other symbol).

During the Check Difficulty step of executing a maneuver, if the maneuver is red, the ship gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one stress token."

 

ok, great. maneuvers have different properties. what happens during the check difficulty step of executing a maneuver is then described for different colored maneuvers.


"• A stressed ship cannot execute red maneuvers or perform actions.
• If an effect increases the difficulty of a maneuver, blue increases to white, and white increases to red. If an effect decreases the difficulty of a  maneuver, red decreases to white, and white decreases to blue."

 

ok, stressed ships cannot execute red maneuvers or perform actions. if an effect increases or decreases the difficulty of a maneuver, it changes color accordingly. says nothing about the check difficulty step here.


"◊ An ability that increases the difficulty of a red maneuver or decreases the difficulty of a blue maneuver can resolve, but has no additional effect.
◊ If multiple abilities change the difficulty of a maneuver, the effects are cumulative. For example, if a ship reveals a red [4 󲁞] maneuver and has one effect that increases the difficulty of the maneuver and another effect that decreases the difficulty of the maneuver, the maneuver is treated as red."

 

yes, effects are generally cumulative and this clarifies how that interacts with changing difficulty of maneuvers, explaining how damaged engine and R4 astromech on the same ship would cancel each other out if we're discussing a red hard one.

and that's it. where do you find the implied timing of the effect of increasing or decreasing the difficulty of a maneuver?

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Posted (edited)

Best thing is - I bed solid money FFG devs haven't even thought of this problem in the development stage and are now stalking threads like that to see what makes more sense according to the player base, so that the eventual "omf" when the FAQ is published is possibly the most quiet.  

Edited by Ryfterek

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1 hour ago, meffo said:

where do you find the implied timing of the effect of increasing or decreasing the difficulty of a maneuver?

I feel this was already answered in the post I made before the one you quoted. Sorry but I'm not running the circle again.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

Your camp has decided that R4's ability is always on - IE a constant ability. Why is it always on? Show me anything in the rules that supports this. I believe they do not. In fact I would argue that in the rules reference under "difficulty" all the rules listed which show how a maneuver's difficulty can be increased/decreased are discussed as a bullet point under the check difficulty step. Combine that with the RR for abilities, which says abilities have a timing and an effect and must be resolved (unless it has the word 'may' or the 'attack:' header) and I would say the case is strengthened that R4's ability is meant to resolve during the check difficulty step of executing a maneuver.

There's my position with use of the rules reference to support why I believe I am correct. Once again I ask for someone to do the same and demonstrate what in the rules says R4's ability is "always on." It would be nice to actually see someone's reasoning with the rules like I did and not just a reply of "It just is." However no one has wanted to do that or no one has wanted to admit that they cannot do that and that is why the "discussion" went 6 pages.

you mean this? that position is not supported by the rules in regards to the definition of abilities or timing in the rules reference.

again R4 has an effect and a text that does not fall under the definition of an ability as described on page two of the rules reference. therefore, it does not have a timing.

our "decision", or rather interpretation, to regard R4s effect as constant is simply derived from reading the card text and interpreting it in accordance with the rules reference, especially the parts about card interpretation and difficulty.

consider other cards that use the wording "while you execute a maneuver". that line of text is not on R4s card.

there is no implied timing. the text is clear and the effect is clear. i still don't see how you would interpret it otherwise, without completely disregarding the rules as written, which seems to be what you have done.

Edited by meffo

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*sigh* You just won't rest until I take another lap. Alright, last one.

Under difficulty - An ability that increases the difficulty of a red maneuver or decreases the difficulty of a blue maneuver can resolve, but has no additional effect.

Prior to this wave if this had come up there would be absolutely zero dissent on when R4's effect resolves, because there was only one place in the entire game where it could resolve. The effect didn't need to be always on, we didn't need to stress about the timing, it didn't matter. Even if this argument came up both sides would say their point and then say the argument is futile because the end result is the same.

I don't think that changes with the new revealed maneuver process. I can see and accept the other point of view, saying because the card doesn't provide a timing window it is creating a rules exception where card takes precedence. That's why I went to the rules submission form. We will get this sorted out.

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So, if a card can only work when the rules allow it to work, how come Rebel Han can reroll asteroid, bomb, and R2D2 crew dice?  There's no modify dice steps for those rolls.

 

Things can work outside the timings the rules contain.  Things can create their own timingss, and things can interact outside the timings specified in the rules.


This is how exception based rule systems work.

 

If things only worked in the timings specified in the rules a whole bunch of things wouldn't work.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, meffo said:

and that's it. where do you find the implied timing of the effect of increasing or decreasing the difficulty of a maneuver?

Page 3 Activation:

The Activation Phase is the third phase of a round. During this phase, each ship activates, one at a time, starting with the ship with the lowest initiative

and continuing in ascending order. Each ship activates by resolving the following steps in order:

1. Reveal Dial: The ship’s assigned dial is revealed by flipping it faceup and then placing it next to its ship card.

2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial.

3. Perform Action: The ship may perform one action.

Page 13 - Maneuver:

A ship can execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:

1. Maneuver Ship:

2. Check Difficulty:

Notes under Maneuver:

Some abilities reference a ship’s revealed maneuver outside of that ship’s activation. A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next Planning Phase.

Camp A is saying that any modifications to the difficulty of a maneuver (unless explicitly timed differently on a card, e.g., before, at the start of, etc) occur during the check difficulty step.

So there is a 3-step process in the rules:

Step 1 - Reveal dial

Step 2 - Move the ship

Step 3 - Check difficulty (where the rules for modifying the difficulty is found)

In the case of R4/Cova (an ability referencing a ship's revealed maneuver outside of that ship's activation), the revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains face up next to that ship's card until the next Planning Phase.  

Han works outside the RR dice modification because his card explicitly says so “After you roll dice...”

It's not a stretch or a twist.  It's applying an effect in the only window that is textually written in the rules. 

Edited by Yank01

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2 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

I can see and accept the other point of view, saying because the card doesn't provide a timing window it is creating a rules exception where card takes precedence. That's why I went to the rules submission form.

I’m really tired of typing the same things repeatedly.

I think this ends with errata to R4, Nien Numb and resistance Leia. Errata that specifically provides a timing window for their abilities in the check difficulty step. I’ll play it however my opponents want to until there is an official answer. My pride and feelings are not hurt if I am wrong. Can you say the same? At this moment in the tone I am perceiving it sure doesn’t seem that way.

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1 hour ago, Yank01 said:

<rules>

Yes, you have these rules, but no one is disputing them.  The question is, where in these rules do you find the timing for applying modifications to difficulty?  The rules state how to do it, but not when.  If R4 had a timing trigger, the issue would be resolved.  However, it doesn't, leading to one of three possibilities, as far as I can see:

1.  The effect is triggered, or otherwise only active sometimes.  The problem I have with this is that there is no timing window during which it is activated or deactivated, and the choice to make it apply at some times and not others just seems arbitrary to me.

2.  Since the effect has no starting condition, it is "always off".  The problem I have with this is that it would make the card utterly useless.  (Though admittedly, I have seen in L5R LCG where FFG released a card that actually couldn't function until they errata'd it, so this option isn't impossible.)

3.  Since the effect has no starting condition, it is "always on".  The problem I have with this is that it allows the card to function properly while not actually contradicting any rules, and I'm suspicious of things that work out too perfectly.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with @JJ48 it is one of those 3 conditions.  That was well said.

43 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

1.  The effect is triggered, or otherwise only active sometimes.  The problem I have with this is that there is no timing window during which it is activated or deactivated, and the choice to make it apply at some times and not others just seems arbitrary to me.

However, it's not arbitrary, my read of the rules is that these events happen in order: Reveal dial, move, check difficulty. 

Is the main contention of the Camp B that the name of the step is "check difficulty" vs "modify difficulty"?  If the "check difficulty" step is simply a stress or no-stress step and it is not where the actual modification to the difficulty occurs, then I could agree that the R4 condition (or damaged engine) essentially modifies the dial from jump street and the revealed maneuver is the decreased (or increased) difficulty of the maneuver.

I think Camp A's position is that unless a timing window is explicitly stated on the card, the "check difficulty" step both checks and modifies the difficulty.

Edited by Yank01

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10 minutes ago, Yank01 said:

I agree with @JJ48 it is one of those 3 conditions.  This was well said.

However, it's not arbitrary, my read of the rules is that these events happen in order: Reveal dial, move, check difficulty. 

Is the main contention of the Camp B that the name of the step is "check difficulty" vs "modify difficulty"?  If the "check difficulty" step is simply a stress or no-stress step and it is not where the actual modification to the difficulty occurs, then I could agree that the R4 condition (or damaged engine) essentially modifies the dial from jump street and the revealed maneuver is the decreased (or increased) difficulty of the maneuver.

I think Camp A's position is that unless a timing window is explicitly stated on the card, the "check difficulty" step both checks and modifies the difficulty.

There is nothing in the rulebook that says the Check Difficulty step is the only time you modify difficulty of a maneuver.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Maui. said:

There is nothing in the rulebook that says the Check Difficulty step is the only time you modify difficulty of a maneuver.

I'm not saying that it is.  I am saying that in absence of something explicitly giving another timing window (e.g., while you move, after rolling dice, while attacking, etc), it is the default place to modify the difficulty of the maneuver.

There's nothing in the rulebook that states the "Perform Action" step is the only time you perform an action.  If are performing an action outside of that step it is because the card explicitly told you to (e.g., after you fully execute a maneuver, during the system phase, after a friendly ship does something, etc).  In absence of explicit direction to perform an action outside of that step, the default place to perform an action is the "Perform Action" step.

Edited by Yank01

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Yank01 said:

I'm not saying that it is.  I am saying that in absence of something explicitly giving another timing window (e.g., while you move, after rolling dice, while attacking, etc), it is the default place to modify the difficulty of the maneuver.

There's nothing in the rulebook that states the "Perform Action" step is the only time you perform an action.  If are performing an action outside of that step it is because the card explicitly told you to (e.g., after you fully execute a maneuver, during the system phase, after a friendly ship does something, etc).  In absence of explicit direction to perform an action outside of that step, the default place to perform an action is the "Perform Action" step.

R4 does indeed apply its effect during the default timing window for checking the difficulty of a maneuver. It also applies every other time that ship checks the difficulty of a maneuver, because the effect is not restricted to a specific timing window.

Edited by Maui.

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33 minutes ago, Maui. said:

There is nothing in the rulebook that says the Check Difficulty step is the only time you modify difficulty of a maneuver.

To be precise, there's nothing in the Check Difficulty step to indicate that's the time you modify difficulty at all.  To reiterate, the step tells how to modify difficulty, but gives no indication of timing; whether in that step or in any other.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Anyone?

🤨 Sorry? I'm firmly in the "R4 is always on for every check, Cova's included." camp and your question is a no brainer yes to me. As it should be to anyone who has read the "Bearing" section of the RR...

Basic Maneuvers

The following bearings are for BASIC MANEUVERS. These maneuvers follow the standard rules for executing a maneuver.

  • Straight: The (straight) bearing advances a ship straight forward.
  • Bank: The (left bank) and (right bank) bearings advance a ship at a shallow curve to one side, changing its facing by 45deg.
  • Turn: The (left turn) and (right turn) bearings advance a ship at a tight curve to one side, changing its facing by 90deg.

 

Edited by Hiemfire

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Just now, Yank01 said:

No one is arguing that it's not.  Just when R4 triggers.

So, the 1 turn on Cova's dial is one of Cova's speed 1-2 basic manouevres, but R4, which says 'reduce the difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic manoeuvres', does not in fact reduce the difficulty of that speed 1-2 basic manoeuvre of Cova's?

That is certainly an interesting position to take.

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8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

So, the 1 turn on Cova's dial is one of Cova's speed 1-2 basic manouevres, but R4, which says 'reduce the difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic manoeuvres', does not in fact reduce the difficulty of that speed 1-2 basic manoeuvre of Cova's?

That is certainly an interesting position to take.

Camp A argument - There are multiple rules which describe how to modify difficulty of a maneuver.  This argument requires a single interpretation to assign a timing to something that has no explicit timing.  Viewed as insane by Camp B.

Camp B argument - Since the timing is not explicitly stated the maneuver's difficulty is always reduced.  This argument is not supported by anything written anywhere and requires the belief that if it's not prohibited, it must be true.  Clung to with religious fervor by Camp B.

I am willing to admit that either could be the FFG intended effect.  While I lean Camp A, I think there is a solid chance that Camp B is correct.  Why is Camp B so rooted in their belief that it can be only one way?  What combo specifically are they trying to protect (because I might want to start flying that combo 😀). 

My concern is this:

8 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

Best thing is - I bed solid money FFG devs haven't even thought of this problem in the development stage and are now stalking threads like that to see what makes more sense according to the player base, so that the eventual "omf" when the FAQ is published is possibly the most quiet.  

I want the answer to be the right answer.  Not the answer of the people who spoke the loudest or most often.

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