Jump to content
wurms

Cova Nell + R4 astromech

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

UPDATE 9/18/19: RULES REFERENCE v1.05

BX8CIg0.png

 

Orignal post below:

This was a thread on reddit, and I am interested in your thoughts here.

Lets discuss REVEALED dials before we begin:

EDIT: Upcoming Rules Refereneces says this:

"A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next Planning Phase."

Cova Nell + R4 astromech

latest?cb=20190618042811

latest?cb=20180611175449

The question is this:

If Cova physically reveals a red hard 1 maneuver, and r4 reduces its difficulty to white. Does Cova Nells ability trigger because her REVEALED dial is red, even though she performed a white hard 1?

 

I am a vote FOR Cova Nell and r4 working, meaning she can trigger her ability by PHYSICALLY REVEALING a red hard 1, and PERFORMING/EXECUTING a white hard 1.

 And here is my argument:

First, if FFG wanted to stop the r4 interaction with cova nell, they could have simply worded it as 'execute a red maneuver', but they specifically worded it as 'reveal'.

 

So, this also means damaged engine crit DOES NOT trigger Cova ability.

latest?cb=20180514202815

If she reveals a white 2 hard turn, and damaged engine reduces its difficulty to red. She performs a red maneuver, but her physical revealed dial is white.

Other REVEALED dial interactions:

Hera + Nein Nunb crew or Leia crew interaction:

latest?cb=20180914002758

latest?cb=20180731230351

Hera reveals a red maneuver, leia just reduces difficulty, so hera cannot change to a red because there are none. But she still revealed a red maneuver.

With nein crew, he is always active, but hera must still physically reveal a blue maneuver (not a white bank). Nein reduces difficulty of banks to make them blue, so hera can now change to a blue bank. If she revealed a white bank, nein reduces its difficulty to be blue, but she cannot change to any other blue maneuver, because she REVEALED a white maneuver.

This is RAW. Revealed dial is what is physically on the dial

 

Ric Olie + R2-A6:

latest?cb=20190520231844

340?cb=20190520221317

R2-a6 droid specifically says to SET your dial to a speed higher or lower. This physically changes your revealed dial, allowing N1 pilots ability like Ric Olie to trigger with it. He doesnt just perform a speed higher or lower, the dial actually must be set to it.

 

Lets discuss 'for' and 'against'. Keep it civil 😁

Edited by wurms

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

R4 astromech changes the revealed manoeuvre.  So does Nien.  So does Rebel Leia.  Resistance Leia (assuming the presumably intended reading that she only works whilst the chosen manoeuvre is being executed on that occasion) does not.  Damaged engine does the same.

R2 A6 changes which manoeuvre is being revealed.

 

All of the current long-duration difficulty changers work exactly as if a different duial had been printed with the relevant colours changed, whilst they're active (for R4, damaged engine, nien etc, that's permanent whilst the card is active, for Rebel leia, for the relevant round.

A6 works differently, because it moves the dial rather than changing difficulty or speed of the manoeuvre (compare with Ved Folso, who alters speed without altering the dial, meaning that a: his revealed manoeuvre doesn't change, so if he revealed a 2 but executed a 3, he still revealed a 2, and b: he can change speeds to moves not on his dial, unlike A6).

 

What colour of manoeuvre is actually physically on the dial is irrelevant, just like whether you're using a dice app or physical dice is irrelevant to the instruction to, when adding a blank result, to add a blank physical die to your pool, or the instruction to roll 4 dice when you only have three means you remeber the result of one of them and roll it again, doesn't mean that's a reroll or an added result.  Otherwise, you could for instance, reveal a red turn with damaged engine that was formerly white, whilst stressed, and execute it just fine.

Ideally, those cards would actually be able to change the physical dial, but because the dials aren't modular or digital, they can't.

Edited by thespaceinvader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

R4 astromech changes the revealed manoeuvre.  So does Nien.  So does Rebel Leia.  Resistance Leia (assuming the presumably intended reading that she only works whilst the chosen manoeuvre is being executed on that occasion) does not.  Damaged engine does the same.

So you are fine with Seasoned Navigator crew working with all Cova Nell's white maneuvers and triggering her ability even though her revealed maneuver was blue or white? I will buy that for 3pts

latest?cb=20180914171115

Edited by wurms

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, wurms said:

So you are fine with Seasoned Navigator crew working with all Cova Nell's white maneuvers and triggering her ability even though her revealed maneuver was blue or white? I will buy that for 3pts

latest?cb=20180914171115

No, because Seasoned Navigator only changes the difficulty of the manoeuvre whilst it is being executed, not afterwards.

 

Also, move changing is really not worth paying for.  Just pick the right move the first time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gonna just paste my reasoning from the Reddit thread mentioned, because I'm lazy. :D

Consider this: Rules Reference says that a regular action is an action from the ship's action bar, or any ability from one of it's upgrades, conditions, and damage cards with the "Action:" header. 


Then, the same document outlines a specific part of the pilot card's print as the ship's action bar. 


Now, does it mean upgrades such as Angled Deflectors cannot work RAW, because they cannot alter what's physically printed on the card? 


I think it's safe to assume that whatever is printed on the physical components is the "base" value, and that value can later on be modified by various game effects and other game mechanics. 


The new ruling has been made to address the uncertainty whether the revealed manouvre changes to another manouvre if an ability allowed to set the dial to another manouvre after it has been revealed (Hera, R2-A6, etc.). What this ruling doesn't say is that the content of this dial is forever limited to the way it has been printed! It only says that for purpose of game effects, what you ended up with selected on your dial is what is your selected manouvre.

One, many or all of these manouvres can still possibly be interacted with by other game mechanics and manouvres you have available can in-fact change over the course of the game (Damaged Engine). Whatever manouvres are actually present on your dial at the moment, it is the manouvre the dial is set to which should be treated as the ship's selected manouvre  - that's the sense of the ruling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/27/2019 at 8:00 AM, thespaceinvader said:

 

Also, move changing is really not worth paying for.  Just pick the right move the first time.

Disagree here.  Being able to play multiple maneuvers at the same time it's stupidly powerful.  On low Init ships I agree, just dial in the "right" maneuver instead of paying points.

 

But on high init ships this tech turns some game risking 50/50 calls into a heads I win, tails you lose.  Think Maul with seasoned navigator.  He can dial up a 2 turn and change to either 2 sloop if the opponent blocked 2 hard.  That said, there aren't many ships with the combination of initiative, dial and crew slots to make this card sing (this is probably a good thing for the game)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • abilities that have a trigger ("after you reveal your dial") and refer to "that maneuver" (Leia, Seasoned Navigator) have an implied timing that lasts until the end of activation 
  • abilities without a timing window (R4 Astromech, Nien) are always active

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Giving you a rant-ish copy-paste from my local community discussion:

The point is - many lean towards explanation that R4-esque effects apply to your dial. You had some manouvres on it and now you have them in easier "flavour". 

If it works the way you support [R4, Nien etc applying only at execution time], then Nien + Hera combo cannot work and we talked about it already. 

No one cared to disagree with Hera + Nien interaction before this Wave. No one had any objections to Hera + Nien combo. This combo doesn't make use of the new rules, so it hasn't changed. 

It's simply because people got new fancy toy they are obsessed with getting better than it is that sparked the whole "it applies at execution, not at all times!' trend. And suddenly many call for re-interpretation of rules so that thier new combo works. And people using the old combo can go-eat-a-stick.

Also, the new interpretation is stubbornly neglecting the fact there are effects with "while you execute ... decrease / increase it's difficulty" which clearly work the way that is suggested for the ongoing effects. If R4, Nien & etc. were not to apply to what manouvres you've got available to select - why aren't they using an existing wording that explicitly does the thing you argue is done implicitly?

What's so hard in not trying to break the friggin game back to Combo-wing 1.0 all of the sudden? You've got a coolass ability, one of the few in the game, that makes you benefit from red manouvre, which usually leaves you vulnerable as ****. Bwings are spit upon for taking advantage from being stressed. Yet there's new toy and taking advantage from putting yourself in stress is not even enough - people push the rules to squeeze an action on top of that!

Half a year of delight that the game is once again made of making proper decisions at proper time and bam! - "I want my tight turn / stay in place and wait, and my bonus dice AND my action!!! And my opponent should just feel bad for bringing a squadron that has counterplays!"

Edited by Ryfterek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a metric I use for abilities like this: Bear in mind that abilities like R4 Astromech, Damaged Engine, and Nien Nunb (crew) are not triggered abilities, they are always on. Thus, there is no point at which the 1-speed turn maneuver is red, for as long as the R4 Astromech is equipped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, caelenvasius said:

There is a metric I use for abilities like this: Bear in mind that abilities like R4 Astromech, Damaged Engine, and Nien Nunb (crew) are not triggered abilities, they are always on. Thus, there is no point at which the 1-speed turn maneuver is red, for as long as the R4 Astromech is equipped.

Unless it also gets hit with a Damaged Engine... but that's just an edge case here ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Swz45_cova-nell.png

Swz12_card_r4-astromech.png

Capture.jpg

there is no valid argument why cova should work with a hard one if she has R4 equipped. it's all pretty clearly stated in the rules. "your revealed maneuver" is defined by the rules reference. since R4 is an ongoing effect that changes the difficulty of that maneuver, it is not red (unless you also have damaged engine).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I see the point that R4 Astromech is always "on", I'm not convinced, as written, that Cova and R4 don't work together.  The essential question is when is the difficulty of the maneuver decreased?  

It seems logical to me (and what the rules reference is saying) that the revealed maneuver is what is on the printed dial.  The difficulty of that maneuver is not decreased until step #2 of the maneuver rules, the check difficulty step.  At the step of reveal, the maneuver was red.  During the check difficulty step it was reduced to white.

Does this break Lando and Nein Nunb?  I don't think that it does, as Lando executes after fully executing a blue maneuver (post check difficulty step).

Follow-up question (only semi-related), does R4 Astromech decrease the difficulty of a white 2 straight maneuver executed as a result of attempting to execute a red maneuver while stressed?  I don't know that it does...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Yank01 said:

While I see the point that R4 Astromech is always "on", I'm not convinced, as written, that Cova and R4 don't work together.  The essential question is when is the difficulty of the maneuver decreased?  

It seems logical to me (and what the rules reference is saying) that the revealed maneuver is what is on the printed dial.  The difficulty of that maneuver is not decreased until step #2 of the maneuver rules, the check difficulty step.  At the step of reveal, the maneuver was red.  During the check difficulty step it was reduced to white.

Does this break Lando and Nein Nunb?  I don't think that it does, as Lando executes after fully executing a blue maneuver (post check difficulty step).

Follow-up question (only semi-related), does R4 Astromech decrease the difficulty of a white 2 straight maneuver executed as a result of attempting to execute a red maneuver while stressed?  I don't know that it does...

Yes.  It's a basic manoeuvre of speed 1-2.  IIRC in 1e they had specific language to indicate that the difficulty of that manoeuvre could not be altered, but that wording doesn't seem to have made it into 2e.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Yank01 said:

(and what the rules reference is saying) that the revealed maneuver is what is on the printed dial.

I do like to notice this is not stated. It is stated that the revealed manouvre is the manouvre selected on the dial, which may or may not disqualify one, or many, or any effects from applying to the dial and changing the details of the very manouvre that is selected on it. E.g. the difficulty of this manouvre may be changed. 

That being said I do not insist this can or cannot work, just trying that emphasize that linking any of the rules directly with the print of the dial is (over)interpretation.

11 minutes ago, Yank01 said:

Does this break Lando and Nein Nunb?  I don't think that it does, as Lando executes after fully executing a blue maneuver (post check difficulty step).

That is correct. However, insisting that R4 doesn't apply to the content of your dial does break the Hera and Nien combo, as  Nien'd turns would qualify neither for the trigger, nor for the selection after the trigger is met. 

Before this wave I don't remember any opposition to this combination being treated as valid, what leads me to a belief people simply want to "break" the rules in favour of the new toys they've just got. 

Edited by Ryfterek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

Before this wave I don't remember any opposition to this combination being treated as valid, what leads me to a belief people simply want to "break" the rules in favour of the new toys they've just got. 

This is the key point for me.  I never saw anyone argue against Hera/Nien or Hera/Leia, but as soon as Cova came out they wanted tyo have their cake and eat it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

That is correct. However, insisting that R4 doesn't apply to the content of your dial does break the Hera and Nien combo, as  Nien'd turns would qualify neither for the trigger, nor for the selection after the trigger is met. 

Before this wave I don't remember any opposition to this combination being treated as valid, what leads me to a belief people simply want to "break" the rules in favour of the new toys they've just got. 

I agree that it can’t be both ways. Either Hera/Nien work or Cova/R4 work under this logic.

It is possible that we’ve been playing the Hera/Nien combo wrong since the RR change.

This needs either an FAQ or change to the RR statement about “revealed” maneuvers because it’s not as clear as FFG thinks it is.

I definitely read the revealed maneuver verbiage as pre-dial modification (believing that R4 doesn’t kick in until the “check difficulty” step), but I will concede that the camp which believes that R4 changes the dial from jump street makes a compelling argument.

Edited by Yank01
Clarity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well, it's not like cova neil and leia doesn't work, as can be seen in the preview article. and it's a pretty disgusting combo. i guess at least leia is 19 points.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/6/17/rebellion-reborn/

i just love taking help from preview articles when interpreting rules. said no one ever.

how ever, leias wording is a mess, so i guess all help is appreciated. R4 is permanent and ongoing as far as i'm concerned, since the ability doesn't have a timing (such as while executing that maneuver). leia has a timing, but no timing for how and when the effect is active, only when it triggers. i guess it's currently active until the end of activation or something along those lines?

yeez. sorry for going a bit off topic there. i just feel like people don't seem to be content with their new toys, but want to break them further with the help of their old ones, as @thespaceinvader and @Ryfterek mentions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haha, so everyone that said it was pointless to keep arguing on a 6 page thread just came here to continue the argument? 

There is quite literally nothing going on in this new thread that already didn't go on for 6 pages. There's a very vocal camp that have decided that there is a "constant abilities" rule in this game and on the other side is a camp pointing out that the rules do not provide that definition. It is RAW vs RAI (Rules as written versus rules as interpreted for those new to the party).

This question has been submitted via a rules submission form, and that means we should get an answer at some point in the next 6 months. I'd be willing to bet we will have a temporary ruling made on this at GenCon next week too. Just sit tight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

This question has been submitted via a rules submission form, and that means we should get an answer at some point in the next 6 months. I'd be willing to bet we will have a temporary ruling made on this at GenCon next week too. Just sit tight.

I don't think it has though, there have been multiple reports of the rules questions submission form not working.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would not surprise me, but I am fairly confident mine went through. I also come from the keyforge forums where you will not see an answer for 3-5 months so I'm sure you can guess my confidence in this being resolved soon.

If I run into anyone flying it I'll probably just let them play how they want to until we get the ruling. I don't see it impacting the game very much (famous last words lol).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

There's a very vocal camp that have decided that there is a "constant abilities" rule in this game and on the other side is a camp pointing out that the rules do not provide that definition.

This sentence here makes me think you don't really understand the conversation at all.  No one is claiming there's a "'constant abilities' rule".  Rather, they're just saying "constant ability" to describe how it works.  It's not RAW vs RAI; it's cards as written vs convoluted hoop-jumping to claim the cards are wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

  It's not RAW vs RAI; it's cards as written vs convoluted hoop-jumping to claim the cards are wrong.

I'm not sure that making the argument that cards which affect the difficulty of a maneuver should apply at the check difficulty step of maneuver qualifies as "convoluted hoop-jumping"

A ship can execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:

1. Maneuver Ship: During this step, the ship moves using the matching

template.

2. Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship

gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one

stress token and one strain token.

 

(From "Check Difficulty")

If an effect increases the difficulty of a maneuver, blue increases to white,

and white increases to red. If an effect decreases the difficulty of a

maneuver, red decreases to white, and white decreases to blue.

19 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

 No one is claiming there's a "'constant abilities' rule".  Rather, they're just saying "constant ability" to describe how it works.

This argument is equally valid if abilities such as R4 astromech essentially reconfigure the dial before the ships are placed on the board until they are destroyed and removed.

The bottom line is that we won't know until FFG answers the question or there is a preponderance of tournament rulings to see how this is handled in the wild.  Calling someone out for not understanding it or claiming they are trying to twist the rules is counterproductive.  Both arguments have merit.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Yank01 said:

(From "Check Difficulty")

If an effect increases the difficulty of a maneuver, blue increases to white,

and white increases to red. If an effect decreases the difficulty of a

maneuver, red decreases to white, and white decreases to blue.

1.  The step talks about checking difficulty, not setting it.

2.  The steps mention how the increases and decreases occur, but not when.

With the wording of the card not having any timing for triggers, if FFG wants the card to only have an effect during certain steps, the card needs an errata, not a clarification. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Yank01 said:

I'm not sure that making the argument that cards which affect the difficulty of a maneuver should apply at the check difficulty step of maneuver qualifies as "convoluted hoop-jumping"

A ship can execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:

1. Maneuver Ship: During this step, the ship moves using the matching

template.

2. Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship

gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one

stress token and one strain token.

Nobody is arguing they don't apply then.


We're arguing that cards are not limited to applying at the default times the rules normally allow operations to happen.  Which they're not.  Because if they were about half the cards in the game simply wouldn't work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we do what the cards and the rules say. R4 says the difficulty of you speed one and two basic maneuvers is reduced. cova nell says that while you defend or perform an attack, if your revealed maneuver is red, roll an additional die. so when cova nell is going to roll for attack or defence and checks the difficulty of the maneuver she has revealed, even if it started as red, there is nothing anywhere indicating that R4 is not affecting it at that time. that means cova nell cannot reveal a red hard one if she has R4 equipped, unless she has also been dealt a damaged engine.

trying to add a timing window to R4s effect, such as during the check difficulty step or while you're executing a maneuver, is very convoluted hoop-jumping indeed, since there is no indication anywhere that that should be done.

R4 does not reconfigure a dial before ships are placed, but when they are placed. when looking at the maneuvers on the dial of a ship with R4 equipped, all of the basic speed one and two maneuvers have their difficulty decreased. that's what R4s card says.

thus, until FFG says otherwise, that's how it should be ruled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...