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Ascarel

What's up with dueling?

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Posted (edited)

The other option would be a Yojimbo event card or attachment.

Let's see 

  • I fight in her Name
  • 1 Cost Attachment
  • +1M/+1P
  • Attaches to a friendly Yojimbo
  • Interrupt: When one of your personalities is chosen to be the participant in a duel, this character is the participant instead.

Or

  • Face me!
  • 0 Cost Event
  • Interrupt: When one of your personalities is chosen to be the participant in a duel, choose a target friendly personality instead.  If this character is a Yoimbo, honour them.
Edited by Tonbo Karasu

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1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

The other option would be a Yojimbo event card or attachment.

Let's see 

  • I fight in her Name
  • 1 Cost Attachment
  • +1M/+1P
  • Attaches to a friendly Yojimbo
  • Interrupt: When one of your personalities is chosen to be the participant in a duel, this character is the participant instead.

Or

  • Face me!
  • 0 Cost Event
  • Interrupt: When one of your personalities is chosen to be the participant in a duel, choose a target friendly personality instead.  If this character is a Yoimbo, honour them.

I do like this.
Possibly both things, for more flexible options!
 

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Firstly the event kinda already exists. But is too specific in usage to see play.

Additionally you need  to be really careful with dueling in this game. Speaking as a loyal member of a clan for whom dueling is a core part of our identity, and the major reason I love playing them, messing around too much with duelling and in effect removing it as a thing would be crushing for me.

Your objections seems to be largely lore based. To this point I will say; in game design you need a balanced approach between lore and function. Duels are the only actions in the game which can backfire after playing them. If we make the risk too great it will effectively remove dueling from the game as player will gravitate towards the safer more consistent options.

I think you are just gonna have to accept that bully dueling is a thing and will probably always be a thing. No system of dueling has been perfect or universally accepted by the player base. Take solace that dueling is no where near as one sided as it used to be in the old game.

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I would say its the same...
10 mil to 1 mil duels and so on...
I don't want it out, I just want it a bit more fixed, especially now with the crane and their auto honor stronghold...

Tbh, duel backfiring is so rare, especially in those extreme moments we see more and more 10 - 1 mil duels...


 

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1 hour ago, JudgeRedeemer said:

I would say its the same...
10 mil to 1 mil duels and so on...
I don't want it out, I just want it a bit more fixed, especially now with the crane and their auto honor stronghold...

Tbh, duel backfiring is so rare, especially in those extreme moments we see more and more 10 - 1 mil duels...


 

But the minute duels do start to back fire more they will be removed from decks. That is the issue here. Why take a card that has even a 20or30% chance to benefit your opponent when you can take a safer card?

You need to stop seeing duels as something separate and rather as simply an action with another step (minigame).

And dueling is far more fair now. Non-dueling decks can win duels now they really couldn't in the old game. Remember for dueling decks you needed to skew your deckbuilding in favour of high focus values. If your opponent did not they simply couldn't win the duel. You could argue that bully dueling is more pronounced now because of this but I now struggle to duel larger characters much more than in the old game where a base stat difference of +1 was more than enough. Now if I want to win those duels I have to pay a cost in honour.

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4 hours ago, Mirumoto Ryan said:

But the minute duels do start to back fire more they will be removed from decks. That is the issue here. Why take a card that has even a 20or30% chance to benefit your opponent when you can take a safer card?

You need to stop seeing duels as something separate and rather as simply an action with another step (minigame).

And dueling is far more fair now. Non-dueling decks can win duels now they really couldn't in the old game. Remember for dueling decks you needed to skew your deckbuilding in favour of high focus values. If your opponent did not they simply couldn't win the duel. You could argue that bully dueling is more pronounced now because of this but I now struggle to duel larger characters much more than in the old game where a base stat difference of +1 was more than enough. Now if I want to win those duels I have to pay a cost in honour.

Except with cards like true strike kenjutsu, you kinda avoid risk with high mil characters.
For example Kisada on Loyal Chalenger, you win without any risk.
The problem is not dueling mechanic, its the fact that good % of duels dont pose any risk to person initiating them.
And he can safely bid 1, because he knows you cant do anything.
So that honor cost isn't that bad, because you won't pay it at all in most cases.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The fairness of dueling has been a never-ending point of contention for as long as L5R has been around, and I've never understood it one bit.

If I play a card from my hand that flat-out destroys your character (Assassination, for instance) then all is fine and the game goes on.
If I play a duel that flat-out destroys your character then for some reason, it should have been more fair, should have given the opponent more of a chance to negate the effect, should have so on and so on and so on...

When I play a duel that you know you can't win, why is that any different than if I had played a non-duel that you know you can't negate? It's not different. If you have the feeling that you should have had a way out, it's entirely in your head.

 

From a mechanics perspective? Dueling is a mechanic that needs to work or else it simply won't be played.
From a lore perspective? Dueling is a racket that the Crane run because they used their political clout to make sure that the one thing they are "best" at is the one acceptable way to resolve issues, and they're one of the most "honorable" clans in the game. ;)

Edited by Bayushi Tsubaki

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54 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

 It's not different. If you have the feeling that you should have had a way out, it's entirely in your head.

[...]

From a lore perspective? Dueling is a racket that the Crane run because they used their political clout to make sure that the one thing they are "best" at is the one acceptable way to resolve issues, and they're one of the most "honorable" clans in the game. ;)

Since I am not coming from the old L5R perspective, I presume I have to apologize for discovering so late, and naively so, this abhorrent hypocrisy of the Crane, although at the same time I must applaud its faithful realization in the game. 😉 

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4 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

The fairness of dueling has been a never-ending point of contention for as long as L5R has been around, and I've never understood it one bit.

If I play a card from my hand that flat-out destroys your character (Assassination, for instance) then all is fine and the game goes on.
If I play a duel that flat-out destroys your character then for some reason, it should have been more fair, should have given the opponent more of a chance to negate the effect, should have so on and so on and so on...

When I play a duel that you know you can't win, why is that any different than if I had played a non-duel that you know you can't negate? It's not different. If you have the feeling that you should have had a way out, it's entirely in your head.

 

From a mechanics perspective? Dueling is a mechanic that needs to work or else it simply won't be played.
From a lore perspective? Dueling is a racket that the Crane run because they used their political clout to make sure that the one thing they are "best" at is the one acceptable way to resolve issues, and they're one of the most "honorable" clans in the game. ;)

What he said :D. I was trying to say that in my earlier post and he did it far better than me.

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3 hours ago, Ascarel said:

Since I am not coming from the old L5R perspective, I presume I have to apologize for discovering so late, and naively so, this abhorrent hypocrisy of the Crane, although at the same time I must applaud its faithful realization in the game. 😉 

Well mate the Crane developed the Rokugani rules of aesthetics and etiquette. It should be no surprise that they are "the best" (a fact many in my clan dispute :D) in a game they designed and continue to rig in their favour.

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15 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

The fairness of dueling has been a never-ending point of contention for as long as L5R has been around, and I've never understood it one bit.

If I play a card from my hand that flat-out destroys your character (Assassination, for instance) then all is fine and the game goes on.
If I play a duel that flat-out destroys your character then for some reason, it should have been more fair, should have given the opponent more of a chance to negate the effect, should have so on and so on and so on...

When I play a duel that you know you can't win, why is that any different than if I had played a non-duel that you know you can't negate? It's not different. If you have the feeling that you should have had a way out, it's entirely in your head.

 

From a mechanics perspective? Dueling is a mechanic that needs to work or else it simply won't be played.
From a lore perspective? Dueling is a racket that the Crane run because they used their political clout to make sure that the one thing they are "best" at is the one acceptable way to resolve issues, and they're one of the most "honorable" clans in the game. ;)

Except when you opt for assassinate you pay with honor.
What exactly do you pay to start duel?


Tho I do agree with the third passage.
But still option to avoid duel should be available to all, possibly at the cost of dishonor.
(tho we already have that in duel to the death card in a certain way)

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, JudgeRedeemer said:

Except when you opt for assassinate you pay with honor.
What exactly do you pay to start duel?


Tho I do agree with the third passage.
But still option to avoid duel should be available to all, possibly at the cost of dishonor.
(tho we already have that in duel to the death card in a certain way)

Restrictions in your deck and timing.

If you want to bully with duels you have to put cards in your deck than boost the success of your duels, instead of have optimal cards that plays by itself in your deck.

Yeah, you target a 2 or minus cost, pay 3 honor and you get rid of the personality, even if he is carrying a hardware store. If I want to have  a  chance to win a duel I have to honor and equip a character, and maybe that 2 or minus character have more skill than the one I have

Edited by Daigotsu Arashi

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Posted (edited)

Assassination is also limited to 2 fate characters and under, whereas a kill duel can get anything......

And if you try to cancel it, oh look Defend Your Honor.  :(

There is nothing wrong with the dueling mechanic it's just a difficult mechanic to design cards for because people are generally not willing to risk a lot for a mediocre effect and if the effect is too good it will be built around to the point where you can ensure the duel's outcome.

I think that working more with Composure and other things where the honor dial matters will help.  I'd also like to see some basic cards that have average effects but some secondary utility either printed on the card for thing like dueling, honoring, movement, etc.  Or something that lets you discard a card for a set effect determined by keyword/trait

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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2 hours ago, Daigotsu Arashi said:

 

If you want to bully with duels you have to put cards in your deck than boost the success of your duels, instead of have optimal cards that plays by itself in your deck.

That argument would hold more weight if the cards that boost the success of your duels weren't Banzai! and Fine Katana, cards you'd be playing anyway.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Assassination is also limited to 2 fate characters and under, whereas a kill duel can get anything......

And if you try to cancel it, oh look Defend Your Honor.  :(

There is nothing wrong with the dueling mechanic it's just a difficult mechanic to design cards for because people are generally not willing to risk a lot for a mediocre effect and if the effect is too good it will be built around to the point where you can ensure the duel's outcome.

I think that working more with Composure and other things where the honor dial matters will help.  I'd also like to see some basic cards that have average effects but some secondary utility either printed on the card for thing like dueling, honoring, movement, etc.  Or something that lets you discard a card for a set effect determined by keyword/trait

To be fair, with the roles available, Crane can't run Defend Your Honor since it's Keeper only. Also, take things like Challenge on the Plains exist where losing can be as good a winning. Also, it's misleading to say a kill duel can get anything.  Have fun trying to Duel to the Death an honored Mitsu that has a myraid of attachments....

Edited by Silver Crane

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Silver Crane said:

To be fair, with the roles available, Crane can't run Defend Your Honor since it's Keeper only. Also, take things like Challenge on the Plains exist where losing can be as good a winning. Also, it's misleading to say a kill duel can get anything.  Have fun trying to Duel to the Death an honored Mitsu that has a myraid of attachments....

If you're running Duel to the Death then you're going to make sure you can kill anything......or else what's the point?

It's not misleading it's how all successful dueling decks are built.  If the deck is based around successfully resolving the strongest duel effects then it will run sufficent cards to ensure you eliminate as much of the risk as possible.

If you're playing and dueling deck and going into a duel like DttD with the outcome in question, you're doing it wrong.

Also, I never mentioned Crane clan specifically.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 1:02 PM, JudgeRedeemer said:

Except when you opt for assassinate you pay with honor.
What exactly do you pay to start duel?


Tho I do agree with the third passage.
But still option to avoid duel should be available to all, possibly at the cost of dishonor.
(tho we already have that in duel to the death card in a certain way)

You pay for duels with tempo. Dueling requires set up and it is quite often telegraphed. If I want to have a duel effect a large character I first need to create the situation where I can bully duel. This can lead to some sub-optimal plays in order to get the desired effect.

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4 hours ago, Mirumoto Ryan said:

You pay for duels with tempo. Dueling requires set up and it is quite often telegraphed. If I want to have a duel effect a large character I first need to create the situation where I can bully duel. This can lead to some sub-optimal plays in order to get the desired effect.

You mean building Voltron which is already good for various stuff?
Tempo is slightly slower...
But odds are overwhelmingly in your favor.

 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

If you're running Duel to the Death then you're going to make sure you can kill anything......or else what's the point?

It's not misleading it's how all successful dueling decks are built.  If the deck is based around successfully resolving the strongest duel effects then it will run sufficent cards to ensure you eliminate as much of the risk as possible.

If you're playing and dueling deck and going into a duel like DttD with the outcome in question, you're doing it wrong.

Also, I never mentioned Crane clan specifically.

Sure you aren't gonna play it if the result is in question.  But the fact the result can be in question means that it can't just kill anything, which was the point I was making.  It has issues taking on hard targets, which goes to my point.  

I know you did not mention Crane, however DttD IS a Crane card, so you'll see it in Crane more often than in other decks.  Stating Crane can't run Defend Your Honor is a valid observation.

Edited by Silver Crane

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Posted (edited)
On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 6:20 PM, Silver Crane said:

Sure you aren't gonna play it if the result is in question.  But the fact the result can be in question means that it can't just kill anything, which was the point I was making.  It has issues taking on hard targets, which goes to my point.  

I know you did not mention Crane, however DttD IS a Crane card, so you'll see it in Crane more often than in other decks.  Stating Crane can't run Defend Your Honor is a valid observation.

The following is not an exaggeration.  

I have literally never seen good dueling decks, run by competent competitive players, have difficulty winning DttD, or any other duel, vs anyone.  I suppose there could be an argument made for the dueling vs dueling match up, but, I think that comes down to who played it better, who got their cards, etc.

Dueling decks are built to either set themself up to be able to afford the honor hit, if they have a small stat advantage, or they push their duel stat so high it will never matter.

If you're dueling deck finds itself coming up against "Chance Boudreaux" (bonus points to the person that gets this reference) then it's probably not a good dueling deck, or ran into some unbelievably bad luck.

We can leave it at agree to disagree if you like.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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On 8/2/2019 at 2:40 PM, Ishi Tonu said:

I think that working more with Composure and other things where the honor dial matters will help.  I'd also like to see some basic cards that have average effects but some secondary utility either printed on the card for thing like dueling, honoring, movement, etc.  Or something that lets you discard a card for a set effect determined by keyword/trait

I was thinking this - dueling & composure interaction could make the difference as more of an interactive factor & dial influencer.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/5/2019 at 2:14 AM, Ishi Tonu said:

The following is not an exaggeration.  

I have literally never seen good dueling decks, run by competent competitive players, have difficulty winning DttD, or any other duel, vs anyone.  I suppose there could be an argument made for the dueling vs dueling match up, but, I think that comes down to who played it better, who got their cards, etc.

Dueling decks are built to either set themself up to be able to afford the honor hit, if they have a small stat advantage, or they push their duel stat so high it will never matter.

If you're dueling deck finds itself coming up against "Chance Boudreaux" (bonus points to the person that gets this reference) then it's probably not a good dueling deck, or ran into some unbelievably bad luck.

We can leave it at agree to disagree if you like.

Hard targets...yeah, got the bonus! 

I like the idea of double ability card. 

Have a printed reasonable ability and a reaction or an interrupt to something in the same theme. 

Well Guarded Road: 

1 fate cost event

Action: during a conflict move a character you control into this conflict. 

Interrupt: during a conflict, cancel a card effect moving a character into or from this conflict. 

Wording could be better I confess.

Edited by Nitenman

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