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Schu81

Anti Rebel Agenda

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12 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Pretty sure Republic just passed them up. Every single pilot is now either correctly priced or underpriced. If missiles weren't as overcosted as they are it would be very obvious. As-is I expect the meta tier to go:

• Republic

• Rebel

• Resistance

• Empire

• First Order

• Separatists

• Scum

But probably with narrower margins/gaps than before and multiple viable archetypes in all.

We’ll see, perhaps you are correct. I could definitely see Republic at or near the top.

I do think with Rebel Beef taking a hit that Scum will move up considerably. I could easily see shadowcasters and Fangs anchoring them firmly in mid upper tiers.

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I don't have many complaints right now (And all I cared about were the Rebel changes & the Generics).  Wedge and Leah were no big surprises.  Still disappointed that Luke didn't come down in price.  But most of the changes (that I saw) seemed subtle.  It will be interesting to see how everything shakes out next season.

I WAS surprised that all of the U-Wings weren't affected.

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52 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

CiS and FO may have turned into entirely different factions given the point adjustments

Definitely feeling this. FO was the Kylo/Tavson/QD/SBP faction until just now. Suddenly it's wide open and I'm actually incentivized to try flying some things in it.

Deployment shenanigans, lots of mods to go around, shields on everything, it's like the Empire-turned-Scum but 35 years later! CIS keeps calling my name but with all the new buffs to Republic...

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I do think its strange that they hit rebel beef from every angle but then said 'Juke'll do' when addressing quad Phantoms. 

They just seem to have gone about things in a very strange way. Ruining Juke for everything else, taking the illicit off the Falcon but then pummeling inertial dampeners into the ground anyway, increasing debris gambit for seemingly no reason. It's just weird..

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13 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

I do think its strange that they 1. hit rebel beef from every angle but then said 2. 'Juke'll do' when addressing quad Phantoms. 

They just seem to have gone about things in a very strange way. Ruining Juke for everything else, 3. taking the illicit off the Falcon but then 4. pummeling inertial dampeners into the ground anyway, 5. increasing debris gambit for seemingly no reason. It's just weird..

🤨

1: The sub variant of Rebel Beef that got hit was the Braylen/Wedge/Cassian/Ten. Rebel Beef is still alive in other forms, even with Leia at 6 points, it just isn't the easy mods that Cassian + Braylen & Ten enabled. Wedge went up because he is potent, as he should be, and "Beef" wasn't the only archetype he was a component of (Alpha Strike still existed, mostly in Swarm Tactics chaining + Dutch. It still will exist but not as powerful as previous iterations). 

2: Sigmas are 48 a pop now. That combined with Juke now being 7 has effectively reduced that list to a shadow of its former self. They're going to have to work for their offensive mods now instead of getting them for "free". They finally hit the generic Phantoms directly (Imdaars also went up) and you think they did nothing to them??

3: Fat Han would have been happy to take Inertial Dampeners even at the I6 price it will have, more points to fortress. Also the R2D2 crew + ID + Kanan combo worked on all of the Rebel YT-1300s. It was just riskier without Han's Pilot ability, but it still worked. The Illicit slot had to go.

4: Inertial Dampeners and Seasoned Navigator both now are costed to their power based on the Init of the pilot they are being equipped to. Being able to decide your maneuver after your opponent has moved most to all of their list is extremely powerful. Think perfect information choice in actions and apply that to a ship's dial... It is a good change.

5: Boba went down by 1 (I take it you forget the pre-first points adjust token stack he was running around with, this increase staves it off a bit longer) and all of the Torrents (Barrel Roll > red Evade which Debris Gambit would turn white. They're tanky as is, removing the stress cost from their linked evade would make them tankier and open up their dial allot) dropped in cost too. Debris Gambit went up to offset.

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Quad Sigmas also lost Trick Shot as an option. Phantom decloaking can be a potent tool for both sliding behind an obstacle to activate Trick Shot, as well as moving away from it the next round to avoid hitting it.  As is, Quad Sigmas with Predator or Crack Shot, or Quad Imdaar with Collision Detector, Shield Upgrade, or Afterburners are probably all fair lists.  Kind of comparable to quad Starvipers, and other nimble jousters.  I almost want to start flying them, since they're fun ships and probably fair enough to make me not-the-******* for flying them.

Meanwhile, Juke getting ruined for everyone else is good.  It's a kind of dice-control which is never really going to be fun to play against, and is almost always really bad anyhow.

 

ID and Seasoned Navigator scaling does seem pointless to me, though.  A nerf?  I guess it's fine.  Make it cost 5 points.  So long as it can't be run with R2-D2 crew, it's almost surely not really a problem.  The shield and stress drawbacks are enough to make the on-table cost high enough.  Seasoned Navigator probably shows up on exactly Hera.  Just give it a straight nerf, costs 7 or 8.  Done.  There's next to no reason to make it super cheap on low-init ships, and it doesn't see enough play to justify the complexity added by scaling the price.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨

1: The sub variant of Rebel Beef that got hit was the Braylen/Wedge/Cassian/Ten. Rebel Beef is still alive in other forms, even with Leia at 6 points, it just isn't the easy mods that Cassian + Braylen & Ten enabled. Wedge went up because he is potent, as he should be, and "Beef" wasn't the only archetype he was a component of (Alpha Strike still existed, mostly in Swarm Tactics chaining + Dutch. It still will exist but not as powerful as previous iterations). 

2: Sigmas are 48 a pop now. That combined with Juke now being 7 has effectively reduced that list to a shadow of its former self. They're going to have to work for their offensive mods now instead of getting them for "free". They finally hit the generic Phantoms directly (Imdaars also went up) and you think they did nothing to them??

3: Fat Han would have been happy to take Inertial Dampeners even at the I6 price it will have, more points to fortress. Also the R2D2 crew + ID + Kanan combo worked on all of the Rebel YT-1300s. It was just riskier without Han's Pilot ability, but it still worked. The Illicit slot had to go.

4: Inertial Dampeners and Seasoned Navigator both now are costed to their power based on the Init of the pilot they are being equipped to. Being able to decide your maneuver after your opponent has moved most to all of their list is extremely powerful. Think perfect information choice in actions and apply that to a ship's dial... It is a good change.

5: Boba went down by 1 (I take it you forget the pre-first points adjust token stack he was running around with, this increase staves it off a bit longer) and all of the Torrents (Barrel Roll > red Evade which Debris Gambit would turn white. They're tanky as is, removing the stress cost from their linked evade would make them tankier and open up their dial allot) dropped in cost too. Debris Gambit went up to offset.

I don't know what you're trying to argue here. You've assumed I'm sitting in a particular corner for these lists/factions, I'm not.

They achieved what they intended to do and hit the top meta, I'm merely commenting on the methods they used, and the seemingly odd choices made.

1. I'm not saying what they did was wrong. I stated that it was strange they had a multi-pronged approach to break down the rebel list, and took a filet knife to quad phantoms. I understand quad phantoms have less build variation, but they're still a thing and will torment anything under i4 even without Juke. Hitting everything in the rebel beef combo with small increases is my preferred approach to balancing. As you alluded too rebel beef is a sum of all its parts and it needed this. The balance they struck hasn't really relegated anything back to the binder, which is great. The phantom change has kept quad i4 phantoms relatively intact, but destroyed Juke for everything else. 

2. That's a very hyperbolic response to what I actually said. However you are right in me thinking they barely actually touched the ship itself. Juke is not what makes phantoms good, its just a juicy side dish. We will just see people switch to predator or crackshot across the board. 48pts is still cheap for the ship, quad phantoms are still top tier, and pseudo castling is still going to be an issue because of it. Imdarr increase is even more inconsequential than the sigma increase, 1pt does nothing to affect that ship whatsoever. 

3. Nobody in their right mind would pay 8pts for inertial dampeners. Its terrible on any Falcon other than Han. All they had to do was remove the illicit slot from the Falcon and leave it. It wasn't abusive on any other ship. It already costs a stress and a shield. Fat Han was the only combo that could effectively and reliably mitigate its downsides. Dampeners is now binder fodder. 

4. I agree with you for seasoned navigator, I completely disagree with you on inertial dampeners. It was only good in combination with Han and Artoo. ID was already a bad card on anything other than Han, and now its worse. 

5. The Boba combo died to due to Han gunner and Marauder increases making him nonviable. This change isn't going to affect those combos at all. Nobody flies them now, and 1pt isn't going to change that. Maybe they were thinking their TIE aggressor change was going to be more impactful than it really will be? Either way gambit torrents aren't worth the cost, gambit aggressors won't be either.

Edited by BVRCH

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12 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Hello Community!

I certainly know, that FFG doesn't support any Anti Rebel Agendas, but the newest point update feels like one.

Somehow all the good ships, all the fun pilots.. everything got more expensive or lost features.

I have always loved flying Wedge. And Dutch. And some others.

Am I supposed to fly EWings, HWKs and K-Wings now? These ships didn't even appear in any of the movies.

Boba would like to say, when one of your ships in your list goes up by 17 points... come talk to me. 

People liked flying those ships you mentioned because they were cheap and good. Now they aren’t so cheap but are still good, you just need to be creative. 

Also, if they only used ships that were in the movies... this would be a boring table top game. 

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21 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

Boba would like to say, when one of your ships in your list goes up by 17 points... come talk to me. 

^this... as well as the only competitive Scum list (Drea + 3x Scurrgs) is now 220 point so you can stop crying about “Rebel Bias”.

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18 hours ago, PaulRuddSays said:

The loss aversion on A-Wings is surprisingly high. I had an outmaneuver Jake do pretty fair damage to my 2x I5 silencers and QuickDraw because he was never the primary threat. He doesn’t need to arc dodge if he can get damage in while you focus on correct target priorities. 

I personally would love if I could get an enemy list to chase a 40-odd point A-Wing for several turns while I lit into them with heavier ships. 

Now you've got cheap TIE/FOs for days, Paul. 

Go crazy. 

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people are missing the point, which is that rebels for almost no buffs to offset the heavy nerfs they received unlike the other factions.

Empire got huge buffs to the Deci, V1, Aggressor, Defenders and Sloane (wtf) to offset the loss of quad phantoms. Resistance got across the board buffs to its 3 other ships to offset the RZ-2 nerfs. same with FO and the upsilon and Scum and the Drea+Loks, across the board buffs on everything else.

Rebels got hit on all of their competitive lists, beef, Han and quad Wardens. In return it feels like the only meaningful thing we got is a generic E-wing buff. All the rebel ARCS either have terrible abilities or the same ability available on a cheaper ship and now compare very poorly to the Republic ARCS. The HWKs are still bad without their title and thus still overcosted. Ezra is now the same price as Bistan and will see the same amount of play, zero.

Yet somehow RZ-1s and the 2400 got no help? at least give poor Leebo back his crew slot. These 2 ships are completely absent from competitive play for a reason, and it's not "herd mentality" or whatever other stupid thing people try to concoct. When things are good, they win games and more people play them, when things are bad, they lose and people stop playing them because losing is not rewarded. It's that simple, if someone says that a ship is actually amazing and just isn't seeing play because people are refusing to play an amazing ship that will win them games, that person is either in denial or an idiot.

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I think people are more missing the point that making the absurd rebel efficiency pieces less absurd doesn't suddenly ruin their ship chassis

Oh no! Wedge is a far more reasonable 55 points! No one will EVER play him now that he's slightly more expensive than Soontir!

And oh no! None of the...other... xwings got nerfed...huh 

Oh! But the Bwing named pilots now cost what they actually should especially in comparison with republic arcs! The HORROR!

 

Okay, enough of the well-deserved sarcasm. Let's not pretend that making something more reasonable at all "kills" it in any way.

As has already been pointed out, beef tweaks have NOTHING on the changes done to stuff like boba or hate sith or Drea & the lads. Seems people are more upset at the mere concept of getting a minor points increase because some other factions got some minor points decreases

 

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2 hours ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I’m still not sure that FOs are worth playing. I will give the 3x Zeta (gunner) + Hux build a shot, though. 

When I play with six named FOs in a list... It makes me sad how few legitimate options I have left for my five A-Wings.

Like, 6 FOs sound like the actual next 5A. 

Just sayin'.

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1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

people are missing the point, which is that rebels for almost no buffs to offset the heavy nerfs they received unlike the other factions.

Empire got huge buffs to the Deci, V1, Aggressor, Defenders and Sloane (wtf) to offset the loss of quad phantoms. Resistance got across the board buffs to its 3 other ships to offset the RZ-2 nerfs. same with FO and the upsilon and Scum and the Drea+Loks, across the board buffs on everything else.

Rebels got hit on all of their competitive lists, beef, Han and quad Wardens. In return it feels like the only meaningful thing we got is a generic E-wing buff. All the rebel ARCS either have terrible abilities or the same ability available on a cheaper ship and now compare very poorly to the Republic ARCS. The HWKs are still bad without their title and thus still overcosted. Ezra is now the same price as Bistan and will see the same amount of play, zero.

Yet somehow RZ-1s and the 2400 got no help? at least give poor Leebo back his crew slot. These 2 ships are completely absent from competitive play for a reason, and it's not "herd mentality" or whatever other stupid thing people try to concoct. When things are good, they win games and more people play them, when things are bad, they lose and people stop playing them because losing is not rewarded. It's that simple, if someone says that a ship is actually amazing and just isn't seeing play because people are refusing to play an amazing ship that will win them games, that person is either in denial or an idiot.


I can't like this enough, and I feel like you're one of the few other people who "get it."

I have little issue with things like Leia, Wedge, Braylen+Ten, and K-Wing Bomber Spam going up while Hand-Brake Han was eliminated.  All of those are warranted changes.

What frustrates me is that now, after three point-fix opportunities, Rebels still have some of the worst options in the game (the stuff you noted, especially the utterly absurdly overcosted unique Rebel Gunners).  Making the over-efficient Rebel stuff more fairly costed doesn't make the huge pile of trash ships and upgrades in the Rebel faction any more appealing... the same Rebel archetypes that were good this past cycle are the same Rebel archetypes that will be run next cycle, they'll just be less potent versions.  No one is gonna start winning with Rebel Chewie or Bistan or Quad RZA1s or YT2400 or anything we haven't already seen.   And that's boring and yet more missed opportunities for the fans of those ships/characters.

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1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

Empire got huge buffs to the Deci, V1, Aggressor, Defenders and Sloane (wtf) to offset the loss of quad phantoms. 

The Defenders went down by 1-2 points each on a 70-80 point hull. Oh, and the EPT that's a natural fit for them went up by 2 points. You may be slightly overstating the hugeness of their buff.

Aggressors are so hugely buffed they're still completely unplayable, so that's nice.

I don't disagree that, say, Rebel A-Wings should have seen a small points reduction but I think you're very much exaggerating how well the other factions did out of the points update.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

I think people are more missing the point that making the absurd rebel efficiency pieces less absurd doesn't suddenly ruin their ship chassis

Oh no! Wedge is a far more reasonable 55 points! No one will EVER play him now that he's slightly more expensive than Soontir!

And oh no! None of the...other... xwings got nerfed...huh 

Oh! But the Bwing named pilots now cost what they actually should especially in comparison with republic arcs! The HORROR!

 

Okay, enough of the well-deserved sarcasm. Let's not pretend that making something more reasonable at all "kills" it in any way.

As has already been pointed out, beef tweaks have NOTHING on the changes done to stuff like boba or hate sith or Drea & the lads. Seems people are more upset at the mere concept of getting a minor points increase because some other factions got some minor points decreases

 



You must hold stock in the hay industry, given all the straw-men you go around and destroy.  You may tilt at more windmills than Don Quixote, but I guess you have to invent causes in order to get to 20,000+ posts.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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13 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:



You must hold stock in the hay industry, given all the straw-men you go around and destroy.  You may tilt at more windmills than Don Quixote.

I find the Rebel crying that their favourite ships have been more fairly priced now hilarious. You have nothing now??? Maybe people will have to engage their cortex and not just play one list. Fenn Rau 68..... Wedge 52.... yeah right.... that seems in the same ball park.... add in the plethora of token hand offs the rebels have, I think you are going to lack support from outside the rebel players here.

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2 hours ago, svelok said:

I still can't figure out if this thread is parody or not

My guess is that it’s unintentional parody at best. People’s reactions to this points change are super weird, in that some of the sharper players I know have completely divergent opinions on faction power levels now.

Most people don’t seem to know what’s good (or not!) until it wins a few things, and when all the known power lists are handicapped at the same time, it’s apparently way more unclear than I think it should be. My guess is that Rebels are still in a pretty good place, and CIS in a bad one, but that’s all gut feel and I’m probably just as wrong as everyone else. 

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2 hours ago, Tvboy said:

people are missing the point, which is that rebels for almost no buffs to offset the heavy nerfs they received unlike the other factions.

I think that you are missing the point. By nerfing the things that made the 2 most popular list archetypes for the faction, they have buffed everything else by making them maybe more appealing in comparison to the new costs. More importantly, its not about nuking the faction into being unplayable, its about trying to create a more diverse meta game at the tournament level by ensuring that the same 2-4 lists aren't the only things on tables for years since only half the games factions are getting new content for a while.

 

44 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


What frustrates me is that now, after three point-fix opportunities, Rebels still have some of the worst options in the game (the stuff you noted, especially the utterly absurdly overcosted unique Rebel Gunners).  Making the over-efficient Rebel stuff more fairly costed doesn't make the huge pile of trash ships and upgrades in the Rebel faction any more appealing

Are rebel gunners overpriced? Probably.

Do I get why some of them are costed at what they are? Yeah, I think FFG is super worried about Force and giving them to any ship so those things are all expensive. Also some of them are really good/strict improvements to similar cards.

Rant Incoming

Do I think that Rebels have some of the worst options in the game? Ask that question again after these points are tournament legal and Scum lists dominate the meta, which they wont, remember the only competitive list that Scum ran this season was nerfed out of existence.

You think A-wings are overcosted for what they offer, try flying M3-As.

You think Rebels have a  "huge pile of trash ships"? Compare any of them point for point with the JumpMaster or the M3-A, or Kimogila. Scum has a few pilots that are good, but most of the factions ships don't compete very well with Rebel ships point for point. For 41 points, I would rather field a Blue Squadron pilot than a Gand Findsman any day of the week.

Rant Over

All of that being said, there is no anti-rebel agenda. FFG is just trying to diversify the meta game for the next season. Does that mean Rebels took a hit, well they dominated this season so yeah. The closest competitor was quad phantoms, which also got nerfed away to make room for other ships and upgrades to be used. That is why FFG implemented the app so they could alter the meta without constant erratas and re-releasing pilots that had "fixes" implemented (i.e: 1.0 JumpMasters). Until card packs become a thing this is FFG only way of ensuring that the meta doesn't become stale.

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