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thespaceinvader

Resistance Leia lack a timing, and is therefore, permanent

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Posted (edited)

So.

Resistance Leia doesn't actually have a timing.

 

After a friendly ship reveals its dial, you may spend 1 force. If you do, the chosen ship reduces the difficulty of that maneuver.

 

The itnention is presumably that the reduction only happens for the given manoeuvre's single execution, but it lacks any endpoint for the reduction.  Which is complezx partly because a number of effects call on the difficulty of the revealed manoeuvre, and Leia doesn't say when the revealed manoeuvre STOPS being reduced in difficulty (i.e. does Cova Nell still count it as the difficulty it was executed at?), and partly because...

 

Decrease the difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic maneuvers.

 

(The lack of wording consistency of decrease versus reduce aside, c'mon FFG seriously) R4 astriomech uses the same wording.  There's a strong, albeit clearly not intended, argument to be made that Leia's difficulty reduction is currently, permanent.  So, if Poe reveals a 4K in round 1, and Leia makes it white... when does it stop being white?  Currently, never.  It's white for the rest of the game, and nothing stops you using Leia on it again and making it blue.  Nothing tells you when to stop reducing it, so you don't.


Let me be perfectly clear: this is clearly not the intent of the card, and I don't think it SHOULD work this way, and I think errata is needed to add a timing (either 'whilst executing the manoeuvre this round', or 'until the end of the phase/round' depending on intent).  But I don't think it's remotely arguable that it currently DOES work this way, and anyone who says otherwise is assuming the existence of text on the card, that isn't there.

Edited by thespaceinvader

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Posted (edited)

OK, so.  I agree, FWIW.  There are an awful lot of cries of wolf on this forum.  I'm usually the first to come out against them.  This is not one of those.

 

My point is, what is the timing then?  WHen someone asks a judge whether Leia affects Cova Nell's ability, what is the correct answer?

 

Is the manouevre's difficulty only changed whilst the maneouvre is being executed?  That's not what the card says.

Is it until the end of the phase?  The end of the round?  Neither of those are what the card says.

Edited by thespaceinvader

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I'm happy to assume the generous reading of the intent - that it's intended to read ' Whilst a friendly ship executes a manoeuvre, you may spend 1 . If you do, the chosen ship reduces the difficulty of that maneuver'. And as a judge, that's how I would rule it.

But that's not what it says.  if it's intended to say that, it should say that.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'm happy to assume the generous reading of the intent - that it's intended to read ' Whilst a friendly ship executes a manoeuvre, you may spend 1 . If you do, the chosen ship reduces the difficulty of that maneuver'. And as a judge, that's how I would rule it.

But that's not what it says.  if it's intended to say that, it should say that.

Lacking any clear wording, i would go so far as to say her effect lasts as long as the dial is revealed. So as soon as the next planning phase hits when you reset dials, it ends, because at that point, there is no longer a way to track what maneuver she reduced the difficulty of, there for, her effect ends. 

So, effectively, until the End Phase (or, end of the end phase). 

Edited by Lyianx

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Just now, Lyianx said:

Lacking any clear wording, i would go so far as to say her effect lasts as long as the dial is revealed. So as soon as the next planning phase hits when you reset dials, it ends, because at that point, there is no longer a way to track what maneuver she reduced the difficulty of, there for, her effect ends. 

So, effectively, until the End Phase. 

OK.

Shouldn't the card say that, then?

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I would argue that the effect persists as long as that specific instance of that maneuver remains revealed.  If the dial is changed for any reason, including becoming not-revealed, the effect ends.

 

Also: ninjaed.

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3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

OK, so.  I agree, FWIW.  There are an awful lot of cries of wolf on this forum.  I'm usually the first to come out against them.  This is not one of those.

 

My point is, what is the timing then?  WHen someone asks a judge whether Leia affects Cova Nell's ability, what is the correct answer?

 

Is the manouevre's difficulty only changed whilst the maneouvre is being executed?  That's not what the card says.

Is it until the end of the phase?  The end of the round?  Neither of those are what the card says.

Well, Leia's reduction only works on "the chosen ship."  At very least, the maneuver's difficulty reduction could only last until a new ship is chosen.  Leia reduces Poe's 4k.  Leia might later want to reduce another ship's 3-hard.  She does, and now that one is "the chosen ship" and Poe's 4k is no longer reduced.

I suppose that could be taken more broadly, someone could hang a timing restriction to Leia that, once a dial is changed, it's no longer "than maneuver."

So some of this is only wanting a "just so" story.  Enough of a fig leaf to pretend someone isn't naked.  The thinnest scrap of plausible deniability.  Is there something to the argument of infinite Leia?  Sure.  But it's also so patently ****ing ridiculous that the tiniest counter-argument is enough for me to call it settled the other way.

 

 

But mostly I'm irked by some of the surrounding context.  FFG often takes a long time to actually issue corrections.  Answers are issued with a wording where the answer is obvious if folks use their cotdam sense, but still leaves some people asking questions (Rigged Cargo Chute).  FFG might want to get the fix out ASAP and use a tweet or post in the forum, but because it's not in the FAQ there will be some folks who ignore it.

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My hope from this is to induce FFG to actually errata the card.  Indeed, I'm hoping that is already planned.

 

Unusually for me, I've actually asked the rules questions line, which I personally reserve for instances where I think something is genuinely written wrongly enough to merit errata or FAQ clarification, because there are unclarities that will affect peoples' games AND the card is good enough that it will see significant use.

The last one I did that for was Rebel Han, I think.

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10 minutes ago, svelok said:

Does anyone actually think any judge on earth is going to be unsure how to adjudicate this card?

Yes, I do.  I'm never surprised by what judges will get wrong.  CF that a number of judges ruled that Rigged Cargo Chute didn't affect ships that it was dropped directly on top of until/unless they manoeuvred over it, even after the FAQ which indicated otherwise.

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Heck, I've heard anecdotal evidence of judges ruling literally the opposite of what a completely clear card says.

Not all judges are players, and not all judges are in a position to argue against a player with a strongly held opinion, even when that strongly held opinion is factually incorrect.

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Lacking further clarification, I would personally be inclined to interpret the text as narrowly as possible, which would be that she only affects the maneuver while it is being executed. Once the maneuver has been executed, her effect ends.

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5 minutes ago, Maui. said:

Lacking further clarification, I would personally be inclined to interpret the text as narrowly as possible, which would be that she only affects the maneuver while it is being executed. Once the maneuver has been executed, her effect ends.

 

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'm happy to assume the generous reading of the intent - that it's intended to read ' Whilst a friendly ship executes a manoeuvre, you may spend 1 . If you do, the chosen ship reduces the difficulty of that maneuver'. And as a judge, that's how I would rule it.

But that's not what it says.  if it's intended to say that, it should say that.

Did you even the thread?

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I wasn't critiquing or disagreeing with your conclusions about Leia. My perspective is that I think that it's not very likely FFG will errata the card, and I also think it's exceedingly likely that there will continue to be ambiguously worded abilities in future releases. I am of the opinion that discussing how ambiguity should be approached is more useful than complaining or trying to spur FFG to do something they're dead set against doing.

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I was more making the point that that's not a narrow technical reading of the card, it's a very generous, flexible reading between the lines of the card.

 

My vain pipe-dream hope hope is that the card gets errated.  My expectation is that the card gets FAQed to confirm intent (most likely the 'whilst executing' intent, but they might go with the 'end of phase' or 'end of round' one) without getting errated.  My actual hope is that it gets done soon.

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well this is fun! my greetings to you, dear rules enthusiasts. ^_^

first, let's get the card displayed.

Swz45_leia-organa.png

now, let's see what the **** it actually means. the timing of the ability is very clear, it's the first thing in the text box. "after a friendly ship reveals its dial". that means the ability enters the ability queue and resolves. after it resolves, it's no longer active. that means the difficulty of the maneuver is only reduced during that timing window, "after a friendly ship reveals its dial".

or in other words, the difficulty of the maneuver is no longer reduced during the check difficulty step while that ship is executing the maneuver. excellent!

100% agree that this needs an errata. it's as dumb as zari bangel. no. it's even dumber.

cheers!

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18 hours ago, meffo said:

now, let's see what the **** it actually means. the timing of the ability is very clear, it's the first thing in the text box. "after a friendly ship reveals its dial". that means the ability enters the ability queue and resolves. after it resolves, it's no longer active. that means the difficulty of the maneuver is only reduced during that timing window, "after a friendly ship reveals its dial".
 

No.  That window is the window in which you spend 1 Force.  The maneuver - i.e.: "that maneuver" - is them reduced in difficulty.

"That maneuver" is - explicitly - the maneuver chosen for that ship that is on the dial it revealed.

 

With your interpretation, I believe that you have inadvertently put this all to rest.  😃

 

Thanks.

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On 6/26/2019 at 3:25 AM, Maui. said:

...I would personally be inclined to interpret the text as narrowly as possible, which would be...

 

On 6/26/2019 at 12:59 PM, meffo said:

...that means the difficulty of the maneuver is only reduced during that timing window, "after a friendly ship reveals its dial"...

The "narrowest possible" window usually makes a thing functionally irrelevant. I think what @Maui. means to use is the "narrowest functional window" which would mean keeping General Leia's effect active while executing the maneuver.

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I acknowledge that I am new (to these forums' discussions).

However, it eludes me as to how this may be interpreted in any other way.

 

"After a friendly ship reveals its dial, you may spend 1 [Force].  If you do, the chosen ship reduces the difficulty of that maneuver."

TIMING

There are several terms used to indicate the specific timing of an effect:

  • Before: The effect resolves immediately preceding the timing specified.
  • At the start of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step. The effect triggers before anything occurs during that phase or step.
  • While: This term is often used in combination with multi-stepped game effects such as an attack, an action, or a maneuver. Although less specific than the other timings, this term is used to narrow down when the ability is resolved during the round. Additional verbiage is required to identify when exactly the effect is applied.
    • For example, in the context of an attack, if the ability rolls additional attack dice, the ability triggers during the Roll Attack Dice step. If the ability modifies defense dice, the ability triggers during the Modify Defense Dice step.
  • At the end of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step of ship’s activation. This effect triggers after the normal effects of that phase or step have occurred.
  • After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.

The ability queue is used to resolve abilities that would resolve simultaneously.

Unless another ability is triggered during this window, then the ability queue is irrelevant, here, as nothing is happening simultaneously.  That said, it is, still, clearly spelled out:  The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.  Therefore, "After a friendly ship reveals its dial, you may spend 1 [Force]." End of window.  Resolved.

The spending of the 1 [Force] allows "the chosen ship reduces the difficulty of that maneuver."  That maneuver, and that maneuver only.  No other maneuvers, no other ships, and no other anything.  Move that ship at the reduced difficulty, and finish that ship's Activation.

Next ship.

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